Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RoseMontague]

What I find to be nauseating is that a civil party is allowed to hire a liar to say that a single attacker is excluded, when 7 out 7 other experts say that a single attacker cannot be excluded.

Strange is it not? You get 3 or 4 civil parties in addition to the prosecution telling lies and arguing for guilt and the defense can only argue for their client once. Hardly seems like a fair and just way to do things. Another example of the problems with this case and the system of justice in Italy.

 

[christianahannah]

This is a good point, and I don't think that nearly enough attention is paid to Giacomo Silenzi. He looks like a sleaze ball, and he's a rockin', pot-growin' kind of guy who partied with a burglar/sex-pest. Apparently, he didn't treat Meredith very well. As you point out, he was the facilitator of the contact between this burglar/sex-pest and Meredith, and this is the contact the led to Meredith's death.

Ultimately, the choice of Silenzi as her boyfriend was fateful and fatal to Meredith. It could have led to the death or one or more of the other roommates.

Choices have consequences.

No, I don't think Silenzi is to blame for Meredith's murder. That would be like blaming Amanda for Meredith's murder because Rudy had an interest in Amanda.

Nor is Meredith herself to blame for her own murder (your post might come close to blaming the rape victim for being raped because of what she was wearing). All of us make many choices in our lifetime some of which we can have control over. What we don't have control over are the choices others make.

Reading some of the prior posts (in general) in the past few pages of this thread has me wondering exactly what point/s are being made. Is it all women bleed, bad girls murder, bad girls don't murder, bad girls get murdered, bad girls don't get murdered? Quite a few of the comparisons are not factual for either Amanda nor Meredith but that probably doesn't matter if one is trying to be sensational or distract.

I had hoped after many of the transcripts were available by Amanda and by the wiki (with some English translations available) there would be discussion of what was actually contained in those documents. A false hope. I guess what is of interest to men is not what is of interest to women (well, to me).

 

[Strozzi]

But these pieces are extremely simple to dismiss. It's very easy to place a pillow under a body, anyone could do that, no need to have this person willing to rape a corpse, might be just a more common stager.
Meredith surely laid on the floor after the stabbing but before dying, for sure the scene was altered, there was a wiping of the floor with towels and part of her undressing (blue sweater) was accomplished after the stabbing.
But this does not mean that also the sexual violence occurred after the stabbing.

What element is inconsistent? Well actually the number of pieces of evidence is huge. Just to start, the presence of 40+ bruises on the body and the whole picture of wounds. But I mean this is just the start.

Machiavelli, Rudy admitted he is the one who fetched the towels and brought them to Meredith's room. Do you believe he was really trying to help Meredith or was he trying to wipe up his traces?

You raise the blue sweater/jacket??? I saw the pictures and video of how the police investigators treated the jacket and other items. They shoved them around, smeared them, rubbed them together with other items, - even shoved items under the bed where they left more confusing blood traces. Acknowledge that the PLE did a horrible job protecting, preserving, and collecting physical evidence at the crime scene (and elsewhere).

And then officer Finzi admitted on the witness stand that he picked that knife out of Raffaele's kitchen draw a few nights later as the probable murder weapon because it looked like a murder knife! And the police and prosecutor pretend that is evidence?

The reader should see forensic engineer Ron Hendry's analysis of the crime scene and the police's misinterpretation of traces, some of which they created as they shoved items around the room. You can read it at http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry11.html

 

[Strozzi]

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It's why Rudy had to leave town. He needed time for the wounds that Meredith inflicted when she almost kicked his ass, but unfortuntely for her, Rudy won and then proceeded to beat her up for thinking she could kick his ass and then raped her while laughing in her face as she died, "That'll teach you, you... "

Sure, that's all speculation, but so is the psychoanalytical speculation that proves Amanda did it because she admitted to a prank.

Get that freakin' witch Amanda... oh yeah and too bad about Meredith and Rudy, huh?

And Maresca projecting Meredith's death photo in court. That's what's really nauseating,

d

ETA: Maybe I'm wrong here but it seems like Br and Ma are tag teaming us so the mods will either shut down or put this thread on mod status.
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Meredith was quickly surprised and cornered by her bed by Rudy. He had his knife to her throat in no time and there was not much of a struggle. She did not "almost kick his ass".

The Kercher family would like to believe that Meredith, who had had some Karate lessons, could defend herself. Maybe in gym class, but there is no evidence that she was able to do so against a knife to her throat. Forensic engineer Ron Hendry analyzed this in detail. Please see it at http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry7.html

 

[Diocletus]

No, I don't think Silenzi is to blame for Meredith's murder. That would be like blaming Amanda for Meredith's murder because Rudy had an interest in Amanda.

If Silenzi hadn't hung out with Rudy, would the murder have happened? Maybe not.

Nor is Meredith herself to blame for her own murder (your post might come close to blaming the rape victim for being raped because of what she was wearing). All of us make many choices in our lifetime some of which we can have control over. What we don't have control over are the choices others make.

Hm. Interesting. I can see your point. Of course, I would not blame a rape victim for what she was wearing (although the ISC might). But at the same time, I will readily admit that I would advise my daughter not to dress provocatively in the wrong situation because you can't control how others might react. Just like I advise my kids to drive defensively, because you can't predict what mistakes another driver might make, which I think is your point.

Silenzi was the wrong situation, and it had consequences to Meredith that she could not foresee.

Reading some of the prior posts (in general) in the past few pages of this thread has me wondering exactly what point/s are being made. Is it all women bleed, bad girls murder, bad girls don't murder, bad girls get murdered, bad girls don't get murdered? Quite a few of the comparisons are not factual for either Amanda nor Meredith but that probably doesn't matter if one is trying to be sensational or distract.

I had hoped after many of the transcripts were available by Amanda and by the wiki (with some English translations available) there would be discussion of what was actually contained in those documents. A false hope. I guess what is of interest to men is not what is of interest to women (well, to me).

Sorry you're not interested in the direction the board has gone. But, it's like a Ouija board--it's going to go where it wants to go. If you want it to go somewhere, then you might have to push a little. Otherwise, you can sit back and pretend to be shocked and horrified about where it's gone.

 

[Dougm]

No, I don't think Silenzi is to blame for Meredith's murder. That would be like blaming Amanda for Meredith's murder because Rudy had an interest in Amanda.

Nor is Meredith herself to blame for her own murder (your post might come close to blaming the rape victim for being raped because of what she was wearing). All of us make many choices in our lifetime some of which we can have control over. What we don't have control over are the choices others make.

Reading some of the prior posts (in general) in the past few pages of this thread has me wondering exactly what point/s are being made. Is it all women bleed, bad girls murder, bad girls don't murder, bad girls get murdered, bad girls don't get murdered? Quite a few of the comparisons are not factual for either Amanda nor Meredith but that probably doesn't matter if one is trying to be sensational or distract.

I had hoped after many of the transcripts were available by Amanda and by the wiki (with some English translations available) there would be discussion of what was actually contained in those documents. A false hope. I guess what is of interest to men is not what is of interest to women (well, to me).

I think that discussion of what is actually in those court transcripts is a fine idea. Many have recently been posted to the internet with summaries that do not accurately reflect what is in them. It's another ruse, to be filed along with the "Read the Massei report" and "there are 10,000 pages of testimony" ruses. The key is what these documents actually say, and what those pages actually prove, not the fact that they exist.

 

[Planigale]

Remember Guede's 'friend' went to the police and said he suspected Guede was guilty. This is how the police knew who to look for when identifying the palm print. He subsequently co-operated with them allowing them to record the Skype call from Germany. Because of the short version trial I suspect he never gave evidence, but he must have good reason to have thought RG was guilty. He did not think it was RG and others.

 

[christianahannah]

Briars,

I'm not Briars but I hope you don't mind me answering. Maybe Briars will answer, too.

Where is the line in a case like this? The prosecution has said that the murder was associated with drugs and sex. Much has been made of Amanda's lifestyle even to the extent of maintaining that it offended Meredith. Does it offend you that the prosecution characterized her as a prude or prudish? Do you think Amanda did things that Meredith didn't approve of? If yes, would it be appropriate to demonstrate that Meredith partook in activities even more extreme?

Some of the things purported to be said by the prosecution have not actually been said or taken extremely out of context. As far as it being appropriate to demonstrate that Meredith partook in more extreme activities people are free to say and write as they like. If Meredith was 100 times more extreme than Amanda it would have no evidentiary weight as to Amanda's innocence or guilt.

I think it is unfortunate that the PGP have consistently attacked Amanda, her family and friends. Do you approve of the photo-shopped pictures of Preston et al.? Do you approve of calling Amanda 'stinky' or Raf 'knife-boy' and 'porn-boy'. Does it bother you that they have mocked Curt's shirts and Edda's body?

I quit participating in some forums because of comments made and chose not to join others for the same reason. There is no patent given to one side or the other for creepy and cray cray posts/posters. I participate here because overall I thought this forum and those who post here were more sensible. Maybe I was wrong in that opinion.

Meredith's sex life and lifestyle are part of this case. Meredith wasn't perfect and she certainly enjoyed a good time. While I'm uncomfortable talking about personal grooming and sexual choices, this case has made it difficult not to address those.

But you are addressing comments made on other boards. Who has made those comments (like in the paragraph above) here?

 

[AmyStrange]

Meredith was quickly surprised and cornered by her bed by Rudy. He had his knife to her throat in no time and there was not much of a struggle. She did not "almost kick his ass".

The Kercher family would like to believe that Meredith, who had had some Karate lessons, could defend herself. Maybe in gym class, but there is no evidence that she was able to do so against a knife to her throat. Forensic engineer Ron Hendry analyzed this in detail. Please see it at http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry7.html

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Maybe and maybe not. No one was there except Rudy and Meredith and anything else is pure speculation, or did you miss that part of my argument?

d

ETA: by the way, how many wounds did Ron Hendry say there were? I'm going to go read your link before the end of the day, but since you've already read it...
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[Grinder]

No, I don't think Silenzi is to blame for Meredith's murder. That would be like blaming Amanda for Meredith's murder because Rudy had an interest in Amanda.

Nor is Meredith herself to blame for her own murder (your post might come close to blaming the rape victim for being raped because of what she was wearing). All of us make many choices in our lifetime some of which we can have control over. What we don't have control over are the choices others make.

Reading some of the prior posts (in general) in the past few pages of this thread has me wondering exactly what point/s are being made. Is it all women bleed, bad girls murder, bad girls don't murder, bad girls get murdered, bad girls don't get murdered? Quite a few of the comparisons are not factual for either Amanda nor Meredith but that probably doesn't matter if one is trying to be sensational or distract.

I had hoped after many of the transcripts were available by Amanda and by the wiki (with some English translations available) there would be discussion of what was actually contained in those documents. A false hope. I guess what is of interest to men is not what is of interest to women (well, to me).

Pick a subject any subject. I tried to get Briars and others to translate Curatolo where he clearly says he saw them from 9:30 until just before midnight.

How about the lawyers saying it must have taken someone sophisicated to disarm the alarm at their offices.

How about the mischaracterization of Amanda's noise ticket and the rest of the bs in the DM story I just posted.

How about the fact that none of the luminol prints matched Amanda or Raf.

So let's discuss - pick a subject.

 

[Diocletus]

If Meredith was 100 times more extreme than Amanda it would have no evidentiary weight as to Amanda's innocence or guilt.

Er. It would if the explanation given for the crime was that Amanda was extreme as demonstrated by comparison to Meredith.

 

[Kaosium]

But these pieces are extremely simple to dismiss. It's very easy to place a pillow under a body, anyone could do that, no need to have this person willing to rape a corpse, might be just a more common stager.

Whatever you want to call it, someone placed Meredith there after she was stabbed. The simplest explanation is that made it easier to cover her with the duvet and thus conceal the body from anyone looking in the keyhole. It would be easier to believe the pillow just happened to be there (stepped on/kicked around in the struggle as the partial shoeprint suggests) when she was put there if it didn't have Rudy's handprint in Meredith's blood on it. If Rudy placed it there as that suggests, then you have an almost naked girl having a pillow placed under her hips after she was stabbed by the same man whose DNA was found inside her.

Can you see why so many wanted the putative semen stain on that pillow beneath her hips tested?

Meredith surely laid on the floor after the stabbing but before dying, for sure the scene was altered, there was a wiping of the floor with towels and part of her undressing (blue sweater) was accomplished after the stabbing.
But this does not mean that also the sexual violence occurred after the stabbing.

No, but both things you mention are also suggestive of that, her being undressed after the stabbing sure does, and a reason someone might want to wipe up that portion of the bloody floor may be so they don't get blood on them when they're on the floor doing something next to the near-naked girl with her hips raised by the pillow with the handprint in blood of the same guy who left DNA inside her who just so happened to be the guy who admits to getting the towels in his story.

What element is inconsistent? Well actually the number of pieces of evidence is huge. Just to start, the presence of 40+ bruises on the body and the whole picture of wounds. But I mean this is just the start.

Start at the end, she's been placed there after she was stabbed elsewhere in the room, with reason to think some of her clothes were removed after she was stabbed, and a pillow placed under her hips. None of the wounds inflicted in the struggle before really matter to this point at the end.

 

[RoseMontague]

I had hoped after many of the transcripts were available by Amanda and by the wiki (with some English translations available) there would be discussion of what was actually contained in those documents. A false hope. I guess what is of interest to men is not what is of interest to women (well, to me).

I am trying to go through about one per week and there has been some recent discussion at IA of some of the testimony. It surprises me as well. As far as the pro-guilt wiki, even with the transcripts available they still prefer to use quotes from the British tabloids to support most of their claims even though the actual transcripts are available.

 

[Grinder]

I'm not Briars but I hope you don't mind me answering. Maybe Briars will answer, too.

Fine.

Some of the things purported to be said by the prosecution have not actually been said or taken extremely out of context. As far as it being appropriate to demonstrate that Meredith partook in more extreme activities people are free to say and write as they like. If Meredith was 100 times more extreme than Amanda it would have no evidentiary weight as to Amanda's innocence or guilt.

Perhaps you could be specific. You need not cross any lines but I truly don't know of what you speak.

Well much has made of Amanda's activities. Mignini read the DM story on the noise ticket into the record. The current prosecutor speculates on dirty toilets. Right now the 'hot' topic is a prank in Seattle from 2006.

If Meredith had a list of 700 men she slept with and 100 on trains in Italy I think it would have influence on the trial and the possibility she invited her killer over.

If she was buying and selling drugs and herself (Mach's Amanda contention) that would have huge implications.

What evidence is there against Amanda that you think is significant and credible.

I quit participating in some forums because of comments made and chose not to join others for the same reason. There is no patent given to one side or the other for creepy and cray cray posts/posters. I participate here because overall I thought this forum and those who post here were more sensible. Maybe I was wrong in that opinion.

Yes. Most are cool here.

But you are addressing comments made on other boards. Who has made those comments (like in the paragraph above) here?

I'm missing the point please explain.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Silence is only a lie when there is a duty to speak.

No one ever had a duty to speak to you, or anyone else, about a college prank, so spare us the feigning of outrage.

In most normal countries, this evidence of a "prank" and a noise citation isn't even admissible. Problem is that in Italy, there is no demarcation between evidence and innuendo, and therefore no boundary between fact and fantasy. Trials seem to be a contest to see who can make up the most interesting stories. I understand that Italy has a long history where heralds, muses and soothsayers pass on epic stories, but a modern courtroom is no place for tall-tale telling.

Silence is definitely not a lie for people who don't know what the story is, which I didn't until the other day when Amanda posted about this incident. I knew it was a trivial matter that some anonymous person described in a distorted and malicious way on a comment board, but I didn't know the details. I never thought it was important enough to find out.

 

[Strozzi]

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Maybe and maybe not. No one was there except Rudy and Meredith and anything else is pure speculation, or did you miss that part of my argument?

d

ETA: by the way, how many wounds did Ron Hendry say there were? I'm going to go read your link before the end of the day, but since you've already read it...
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AmyStrange, I don't know offhand how many injuries were inflicted on Meredith. Hendry compares what is visible in photos with the medical examiner's report.

Please be aware that Hendry's report is very graphic and can be upsetting. Readers can see the complete list of Hendry's articles on this case at http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendryindex2.html

Henry has evaluated and critiqued many analyses done by experienced police and forensic investigators. He has deep experience in painstakingly reconstructing what occurred at scenes using photographic evidence. He worked from a very large number of photos and videos as he analyzed what occurred inside the house.

He noted, for example, that there is a loose antenna cable draped along the wall below the window in Filomena's room. The cable has a noticeable kink in it and discoloration, which Hendry believes may be caused by the burglar snagging his shoe on the cable as he entered the room through the window. The antenna cable, if snagged, would have pulled on a TV set sitting on top of Filomena's armoire and the tug on the TV may have knocked clothes and other items stacked along the front edge of the armoire to the floor, where they landed in a cohesive pile as if they fell together from the top of the armoire. This is the sort of detail that the PLE investigators evidently missed.

The PLE were dismissive very early on that the break in was real and therefore did a cursory but not thorough examination of Filomena's room. In fact, police officers were even allowed to stand and congregate on the ground beneath Filomena's window and use it for smoking breaks. A competent investigation would have excavated the ground surface for glass fragments and faint shoe disturbances. Hendry's analysis conflicts with the PLE's view; the PLE is dismissive of Hendry.

 

[AmyStrange]

AmyStrange, I don't know offhand how many injuries were inflicted on Meredith. Hendry compares what is visible in photos with the medical examiner's report. Please be aware that Hendry's report is very graphic and can be upsetting. Readers can see the complete list of Hendry's articles on this case at http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendryindex2.html

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Will do, but why doesn't he use the coroner's or ME's (or whatever they call them in Italy) autopsy report instead of photos or do the photos show more than the autopsy. I've seen this to be true in some cases.

I'm just curious as to where the number 40 came from in reference to the number of wounds sustained by Meredith.

As far as getting upset, I have done a lot of research on serial killers and missing persons on my website and by comparison this case is mild by comparison,

d

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[Strozzi]

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Will do, but why doesn't he use the coroner's or ME's (or whatever they call them in Italy) autopsy report instead of photos or do the photos show more than the autopsy. I've seen this to be true in some cases.

I'm just curious as to where the number 40 came from in reference to the number of wounds sustained by Meredith.

As far as getting upset, I have done a lot of research on serial killers and missing persons on my website and by comparison this case is mild by comparison,

d

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Hendry relies on both photographs and the medical examiner's report. He cites, for example, the injury to the inside of Meredith's mouth noted by the medical examiner that is not visible in photographs.

Are you aware that medical examiner Lalli determined that the injuries to Meredith could have been caused by one or by several attackers? Mignini did not like Lalli's conclusion as it conflicted with the story Mignini pushed of multiple attackers. Mignini regarded it as heresy. Mignini fired Lalli from the investigation.

 

[AmyStrange]

Hendry relies on both photographs and the medical examiner's report. He cites, for example, the injury to the inside of Meredith's mouth noted by the medical examiner that is not visible in photographs.

Are you aware that medical examiner Lalli determined that the injuries to Meredith could have been caused by one or by several attackers? Mignini did not like Lalli's conclusion as it conflicted with the story Mignini pushed of multiple attackers. Mignini regarded it as heresy. Mignini fired Lalli from the investigation.

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Yes I am aware of this. It's one of the many things that made me suspicious of all the PGP rhetoric, which to be honest was also my rhetoric at the time. At least one person in Italy did their job correctly and tried to be honest,

d

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[Charlie Wilkes]

No, I don't think Silenzi is to blame for Meredith's murder. That would be like blaming Amanda for Meredith's murder because Rudy had an interest in Amanda.

Nor is Meredith herself to blame for her own murder (your post might come close to blaming the rape victim for being raped because of what she was wearing). All of us make many choices in our lifetime some of which we can have control over. What we don't have control over are the choices others make.

Reading some of the prior posts (in general) in the past few pages of this thread has me wondering exactly what point/s are being made. Is it all women bleed, bad girls murder, bad girls don't murder, bad girls get murdered, bad girls don't get murdered? Quite a few of the comparisons are not factual for either Amanda nor Meredith but that probably doesn't matter if one is trying to be sensational or distract.

I had hoped after many of the transcripts were available by Amanda and by the wiki (with some English translations available) there would be discussion of what was actually contained in those documents. A false hope. I guess what is of interest to men is not what is of interest to women (well, to me).

This call for the high road strikes me as disingenuous. The discussion you are seeing here addresses the central narrative of the prosecution, as well as the online cult of haters, which is that Amanda was a reckless slut who clashed with the virtuous Meredith. This is how Mignini described it in his closing argument in 2009:

Amanda nurtured her hate for Meredith, but that night that hate could explode. For Amanda the moment had come to take revenge on that prissy girl. That is what she must have thought. And in a crescendo of threats and increasing violence, Meredith's ordeal begins.

Crini now has gone in a different direction, suggesting a dispute centered on matters of housekeeping but with the same implied tension between a virtuous Meredith and a heedless Amanda.

So, the prosecution's case is fundamentally rooted in character assessment. One can hardly weigh that assessment without examining the elements that inform it. Were these women really as different and incompatible as the prosecution claims?

Hence the tabulated comparisons. I find this microscopic examination of private matters distasteful. I think in terms of understanding the crime that actually took place, it is completely irrelevant. But the prosecution and the online cult have chosen to make it relevant. Either it matters, or it doesn't matter, but you can't have it both ways. Diocletus expressed it perfectly:

You cannot use comparison of Knox-Kercher as a sword against Knox, and simultaneously raise a shield against the comparison.