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Nailed: Ten Christian Myths that show Jesus never existed

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I'm with Craig B on this, in that the dating of the Epistles is from internal clues matched with archeology (the Gallio thing).

I think it is safe to assume the Author of Acts knew of the Pauline cannon and set some of his episodes accordingly.

He changes the basket escape story, from being chased by Aretas the foreign ruler who destroyed Herod's army in that episode with John The Baptist. To being chased by "The Jews", because thats what "The Jews" do.

I'm probably wrong, but I read that interesting Gallio thing as simply proof that Acts got something right.


It was a brilliant marketing maneuver "Our god must be real because who would make up a humiliated god", so brilliant that you're still using it.
The crucifixion wasn't used as proof of Jesus' existence in Early Christianity. What makes you think anyone would have ever said anything like that back in those days?

It may not count for much, but my impression is that it was, Brainache.


"When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you, except Jesus Christ and him crucified!" 1 Corinthians 2:1-2
"3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."
1 Corinthians 15:3-8
 
We're giving you evidence. Refute it if you can - but it's foolish to deny that these references constitute evidence.

What foolishness!! It is total nonsense to use the very questioned Pauline writings, riddled with forgeries, to date itself.

You NEED to examine the EXTERNAL evidence.

There is a massive amount of external evidence that has been ignored. It is FOOLISH to do so.
 
What foolishness!! It is total nonsense to use the very questioned Pauline writings, riddled with forgeries, to date itself.

You NEED to examine the EXTERNAL evidence.

There is a massive amount of external evidence that has been ignored. It is FOOLISH to do so.
It is I who have introduced external evidence, eg the Claudian inscription at Delphi. But not even I claim to be in possession of a "massive amount" of this valuable commodity. Can you share your good fortune with us?

The Delphi inscription was discovered in the last century. (ETA: in 1905.) According to wiki, it is fragmentary, and has been deciphered to read
Tiber[ius Claudius Cae]sar Augustus Ge[rmanicus, invested with tribunician po]wer [for the 12th time, acclaimed Imperator for t]he 26th time, F[ather of the Fa]ther[land...]. For a l[ong time have I been not onl]y [well-disposed towards t]he ci[ty] of Delph[i, but also solicitous for its pro]sperity, and I have always guard[ed th]e cul[t of t]he [Pythian] Apol[lo. But] now [since] it is said to be desti[tu]te of [citi]zens, as [L. Jun]ius Gallio, my fri[end] an[d procon]sul, [recently reported to me, and being desirous that Delphi] should retain [inta]ct its for[mer rank, I] ord[er you (pl.) to in]vite well-born people also from [ot]her cities [to Delphi as new inhabitants....]
 
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As I have suggested before, there is internal evidence. I cited Aretas and the Jerusalem Temple. Here's another example, linking Acts and Paul with a person known from the historical record. See http://hebrew.wisc.edu/~rltroxel/Paul/dating.htm. ...

Here's a link to the Gallio Inscription find
http://users.wfu.edu/horton/r102/gallio.html

ETA
Just judging from my Googling, the proconsul is remembered, or at least written about principally for his having been mentioned in Acts.
Trust wiki to remind us of his life in turbulent times.
Lucius Junius Gallio AnnaeanusWP
 
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Here's a link to the Gallio Inscription find
http://users.wfu.edu/horton/r102/gallio.html

ETA
Just judging from my Googling, the proconsul is remembered, or at least written about principally for his having been mentioned in Acts.
Trust wiki to remind us of his life in turbulent times.
Lucius Junius Gallio AnnaeanusWP
He is well known from other sources. He was Lucius Annaeus Seneca's brother, and committed suicide along with him. He was Consul in the year 55. Important person. See http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/224447/Junius-Gallio.
 
People have been fairly open about listing what the non biblical evidence for an HJ is. There seems to be a semantic issue about what constitutes evidence. The word evidence, as I use it, means this: Information that is not known to be false and that if true supports a proposition. Based on that definition of the word, evidence, the list of non-biblical evidence for an HJ is as follows:

1. Testimonium Flavium - My guess is that it an interpolation in total and even it is not an interpolation in total it only provides indirect support for the existence of an HJ since Josephus was not born when the HJ is hypothesized to have lived.

2. Josephus James reference - My guess is that it is an interpolation but if it isn't an interpolation in total it might not refer to the HJ.

3. Tacitus - If true suggests that Christians were in Rome as early as 64 CE. My guess is that there weren't enough Christians in Rome to make the claim that Nero tried to blame the Rome fires on them plausible, but maybe I'm wrong. And Christians in Rome as early as 64 CE provides support for the idea that the origin of Christianity might have dated from the death of the hypothetical HJ in about 33 CE.

4. The fact that people were writing about an HJ by about 100 CE is some evidence that he might have existed in 30 CE.

5. Early existence of Jewish Christians. There is pretty good evidence that Jewish Christians existed. There is a story that they were kicked out of the synagogs in 90CE. However, tying the existence of the Jewish Christians that are very likely to have existed to an early circa 30 CE Jesus Palestinian sect doesn't seem to be possible.

6. Josephus mentions John the Baptist. This is generally believed (but not universally) not to have been an interpolation and as such provides a small amount of corroboration for a Gospel story.

7. Talmud and dead sea scroll stuff. I don't see anything here that even qualifies for the highly inclusive davefoc definition of evidence, but there are many things in this world that davefoc doesn't know, so maybe.

There might be some other stuff that some people in this thread would put forth, but this is the list as I understand it. I guess I might have included Suetonius but I didn't feel it.




The above has indeed very frequently been offered or claimed as evidence for Jesus. But this is precisely why I have consistently in all these threads, stressed that whatever is offered as "evidence" of a living human Jesus, must be -

1. Reliable

2. Credible in what it claims.

3. Actually evidence of what is being claimed (and not evidence of something else entirely).


As far as your list above is concerned, I am sure you know very well that none of the above is reliable or credible as evidence of any of those authors knowing that Jesus ever existed. At least I certainly hope you know that.

It's not reliable because none of that is known from any of those named authors at all. We have no idea what authors like Tacitus and Josephus ever wrote about Jesus, if indeed they wrote anything at all about him, because we have nothing that any of them ever actually wrote from anywhere near their own lifetime.

As you know, the earliest extant copies of Tacitus and Josephus come not from anywhere near c.100CE (as you put it), but instead (apparently) only as writing from Christian religious copyists writing in the 11th century and later. And that is a whopping 1000 years after those authors themselves had died, and 1000 years after any events involving Jesus were ever supposed to have occurred!

And as far as that sort of later Christian copying is concerned - afaik, all scholars agree that such copying commonly involved all sorts of "interpolations", depending on what the copyists and/or their masters later came to believe was either some different truth which should be added or deleted, or where they had simply changed their mind and wanted something else written instead.

Nor is such evidence as Tacitus and Josephus credible as evidence of Jesus, because as far as is known, those authors were not even born at the time of the events claimed for a Jesus figure who was thought to have died c.30AD. So there is no credible way in which authors like Tacitus and Josephus, let alone their 11th century religious copyists, could possibly have known themselves what happened to Jesus.

Those authors were very clearly writing hearsay beliefs about Jesus, and where the only known source of such Jesus stories from which anyone like Tacitus and Josephus could have ever got any such Jesus stories, was the biblical writing itself and whatever was thought to have been said on the streets by ordinary Christian worshippers.

So those are most definitely neither reliable nor credible as sources of anything called "evidence" of a human Jesus.

Just on the 3rd requirement of any "evidence" needing to be relevant to that which is being claimed - what is contained in the gospels (for example) is evidence of peoples beliefs in a Jesus that none of it's anonymous authors ever knew, but in whom they believed as a matter of religious legend of a deceased messiah of the past. That, as "evidence", can only be evidence of peoples religious beliefs. But that is not evidence of Jesus ... beliefs are not evidence of beliefs being true. It's not any kind of evidence that those beliefs were ever true.
 
I think that amongst the minimum requirements for an HJ is that he played a significant role in an early first century religious sect that included at least some of the characters mentioned by Paul. With this requirement, an HJ could probably be identified as either having existed or not if one had complete knowledge of all the people that lived in early first century Palestine



Is there any reliable evidence of such a person?
 
I was aware of the generally accepted dates for the Pauline epistles. That they predate the Gospels is one of the facts that I have never seen contested in any of the secular Christian history sites that I've seen including the ones that tend toward myther views.

There are certainly some authors that theorize that Paul's epistles have been misinterpreted as being about a human Jesus (Doherty and Carrier) and other sites that have speculated that they were faked (jesusneverexisted) and there is certainly speculation that Paul lied or was crazy (common JREF forum theory) but the idea that they were written as late as 180 CE or that they were written after the Gospels are new theories at least to me.

And I wondered just how solid the dating of Paul's epistles is. Is it possible that dejudge is right or is it possible to prove him wrong? In one area,at least, I think he is highly unlikely to be right. In the time span between 100 CE and 200 CE there are many identified Christian authors, they quote each other and their existence is generally uncontested. And even if for some reason they didn't exist, people that did what they did must have existed because between 100 and 200 CE Christianity became an established religion and somebody had to be doing the establishing.

What is the latest date that Paul's epistles could have been written before there is absolute proof of their existence?



Dave; just quite generally on any suggestions that the letters of Paul may be much later than the usual dates of around 55-60AD -

- there are all manner of theories, speculations and beliefs in these HJ threads. In fact at a rough guess I’d say 95% or more of all these threads keeps repeating the same speculation and theorizing where HJ proponents frequently say something like “here is a quote of what Paul said, from that we know that A, B, & C were in Jerusalem around c.37AD, and hence Paul must have known about X, Y & Z, and hence … etc. etc.”. That sort of theorising speculation is really worthless.

What is required here as an absolute minimum, is some really solid evidence to show Jesus probably was a real figure. And there simply isn’t any (apparently).

There is abundant evidence to the contrary of course. Ie, evidence that all the biblical writing is untrustworthy in the extreme, and not remotely reliable or credible in what it’s fanatical religious authors believed about Jesus.

But in a situation like this, where the so-called expert historians repeatedly insist that the evidence of Jesus is overwhelming and undeniable, but where those experts cannot actually cite any such evidence beyond what boils down to their belief in the bible, it is far too simplistic and not at all a credible procedure to speculate about who must have known what and from whom and a what date etc., by taking (ie assuming) what is said in the bible to be truth upon it’s face value.

I actually don’t care if Jesus existed at all. It makes absolutely no difference to me either way. But I do care about the truth. And it is most certainly not true to say that any credible reliable evidence of Jesus has ever been offered in any of these HJ threads (inc. those on the other forums), and certainly not from the bible or from extremely late Christian copies in the hearsay from writers like Tacitus or Josephus etc.
 
... so-called expert historians repeatedly insist that the evidence of Jesus is overwhelming and undeniable, but where those experts cannot actually cite any such evidence beyond what boils down to their belief in the bible.
We're getting there. "Belief in the holy bible" has now been downsized to mere "boils down to ... belief in the bible". A step forward! the "holy" has gone away, and the "belief" is reduced to a more palatable state by boiling, like bones into soup stock.
 
Because I have to deal with people who make transparently dishonest arguments (ie: "No one has any evidence!", or "You must believe in Jesus") and then they play the martyr when they get called on it.
Interesting.



No sympathy for that sort of nonsense.
I agree with you; I have no sympathy either, frankly.

Alas; it's been a grand time, but I'm going to do my best to no longer post in these three currently active Jesus threads. But -- who knows what the future may bring?
 
In these threads I always have to ask "what would even COUNT for an HJ?" I mean, I agree there could have been many guys named jesus running around back then, maybe even could have done something similar to the more mundane acts in the gospels.

We had an insanely long thread on just that matter titled "What counts as a historical Jesus?"


For me an HJ has to be a guy who we could go back there and identify as THAT jesus. I don't even know where to start for defining characteristics as all we really have are descriptions among miracle stories and contradictory claims.....so from there;

"The "historical Jesus" reconstructed by New Testament scholars is always a reflection of the individual scholars who reconstruct him. Albert Schweitzer was perhaps the single exception, and he made it painfully clear that previous questers for the historical Jesus had merely drawn self-portraits. All unconsciously used the historical Jesus as a ventriloquist dummy. Jesus must have taught the truth, and their own beliefs must have been true, so Jesus must have taught those beliefs. (Price, Robert (1997) Christ a Fiction)

Price had pointed out the basic problem and its result:

"What one Jesus reconstruction leaves aside, the next one takes up and makes its cornerstone. Jesus simply wears too many hats in the Gospels – exorcist, healer, king, prophet, sage, rabbi, demigod, and so on. The Jesus Christ of the New Testament is a composite figure (...) The historical Jesus (if there was one) might well have been a messianic king, or a progressive Pharisee, or a Galilean shaman, or a magus, or a Hellenistic sage. But he cannot very well have been all of them at the same time." (Price, Robert (2000) Deconstructing Jesus, pp. 15-16)

"My point here is simply that, even if there was a historical Jesus lying back of the gospel Christ, he can never be recovered. If there ever was a historical Jesus, there isn't one any more. All attempts to recover him turn out to be just modern remythologizings of Jesus. Every "historical Jesus" is a Christ of faith, of somebody's faith. So the "historical Jesus" of modern scholarship is no less a fiction." (Price, Robert (1997) Christ a Fiction)

-----

We must not over look the possibility that like the Robin Hood in the ballads the Gospels Jesus is a composite character ie made up of various people and as such would not describe a single historical person. However with Robin Hood we can find likely candidates for some of those elements outside the ballads but for Jesus there is nothing of comparative quality.
 
People have been fairly open about listing what the non biblical evidence for an HJ is. There seems to be a semantic issue about what constitutes evidence. The word evidence, as I use it, means this: Information that is not known to be false and that if true supports a proposition. Based on that definition of the word, evidence, the list of non-biblical evidence for an HJ is as follows:

1. Testimonium Flavium - My guess is that it an interpolation in total and even it is not an interpolation in total it only provides indirect support for the existence of an HJ since Josephus was not born when the HJ is hypothesized to have lived.

2. Josephus James reference - My guess is that it is an interpolation but if it isn't an interpolation in total it might not refer to the HJ.

3. Tacitus - If true suggests that Christians were in Rome as early as 64 CE. My guess is that there weren't enough Christians in Rome to make the claim that Nero tried to blame the Rome fires on them plausible, but maybe I'm wrong. And Christians in Rome as early as 64 CE provides support for the idea that the origin of Christianity might have dated from the death of the hypothetical HJ in about 33 CE.

4. The fact that people were writing about an HJ by about 100 CE is some evidence that he might have existed in 30 CE.

John Frum shows the fundamental flaw with point 4 and with the Testimonium Flavium, Josephus James reference, and Tacitus even if they were entirely unaltered.

According to the cult, John Frum was a literate white US serviceman that appeared to the village elders in a vision in the 1930s. (Raffaele, Paul "In John They Trust" Smithsonian magazine, February 2006.) However as early as 1949 there were people saying the "origin of the movement or the cause started more than thirty years ago" ie in 1910s (Guiart, Jean (1952) "John Frum Movement in Tanna" Oceania Vol 22 No 3 pg 165-177)


But the closest thing actual recorded history shows are three illiterate natives taking up the name John Frum and being exiled or thrown into jail for the trouble they stirred up[58]: Manehivi (1940-41), Neloaig (1943, inspired people to build an airstrip), and Iokaeye (1947, preached a new color symbolism) (Guiart, Jean (1952) "John Frum Movement in Tanna" Oceania Vol 22 No 3 pg 165-177)

John Frum also allows us to see the evolution of the belief.

In 1952 Guiart talks about how the natives would talk of the day when John Frum would come, all the whites would leave, and then John Frum would assume power. This implies in 1952 that the natives didn't see John Frum as a white man.

Worsley's 1957 The Trumpet Shall Sound: A Study of 'Cargo' Cults in Melanesia recorded a new addition to the John Frum story that wasn't around in 1952: "John Frum was King of America, or would send his son to America to seek the King, or his son was coming from America, or his sons were to seek John Frum in America."

Around 1957 John Frum also got himself a brother: Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (who has only sisters) and was being generally being described as a white US service man wearing a white Navy uniform. Some people think that this is due to Tom Beatty a missionary and Navy Seabee stationed in the area during WWII being incorporated into the cult's view and resulted in the lesser known figure of Tom Navy.

By the 1960s people where carrying around photos of people they believed to be John Frum and the three natives who had taken up that name had been effectively wiped from the oral tradition. History seems to indicate that Manehivi if not the founder of the John Frum cult took the idea to a level that it got noticed in 1940 but of him the cult said nothing of other then he was a pretender; for them John Frum was a white US service man wearing a white Navy uniform and some sects have pushed John Frum's appearance all the way back to 1931.

If Jesus did live he may be nothing like the Gospels describe and may not even be int he time frame the Gospels indicate.

5. Early existence of Jewish Christians. There is pretty good evidence that Jewish Christians existed. There is a story that they were kicked out of the synagogs in 90CE. However, tying the existence of the Jewish Christians that are very likely to have existed to an early circa 30 CE Jesus Palestinian sect doesn't seem to be possible.

6. Josephus mentions John the Baptist. This is generally believed (but not universally) not to have been an interpolation and as such provides a small amount of corroboration for a Gospel story.

7. Talmud and dead sea scroll stuff. I don't see anything here that even qualifies for the highly inclusive davefoc definition of evidence, but there are many things in this world that davefoc doesn't know, so maybe.

There might be some other stuff that some people in this thread would put forth, but this is the list as I understand it. I guess I might have included Suetonius but I didn't feel it.


Nearly all mythic ideas regarding Jesus is the concept predates the 1st century so point 5 is useless. A letter in 1949 states that the spirit of John Frum went back to the 1910's. If the John Frum movement did go back substantially before 1940 no one outside the cult saw it.

Point 6 ignores the idea that to make Jesus important the writers connected him to a more widely known person-John the Baptist.

Point 7 From what I have been shown there is no exclusively New Testament material in the Dead Sea Scrolls and any that has claimed is highly disputed. The Talmud is so late it is questionable as to what it is talking about.
 
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It is I who have introduced external evidence, eg the Claudian inscription at Delphi. But not even I claim to be in possession of a "massive amount" of this valuable commodity. Can you share your good fortune with us?

You did what?? You are the one who consistently use the Pauline writings as evidence of its own date of authorship.

You will not be able to present any external evidence for the Pauline Corpus before c 62 CE.

This is some of the evidence against early Pauline writings.

1. The author of gMark wrote about the story of Jesus but did not include a single detail about the Pauline post resurrection story.

2. The author of Acts, a supposed close companion of Paul, wrote about the activities of Paul from his time as a persecutor to his time in Rome and NEVER once mentioned a Pauline Letter.

3. c 117-138 CE Aristides knew a story of Jesus but did NOT know Paul and the Pauline Corpus.

4. c 138-161 CE, Justin knew a story of Jesus but did NOT know of Paul and the Pauline Corpus.

5. c 161-180 CE, Celsus knew a story of Jesus did NOT known of Paul and the Pauline Corpus.

6. c 161-180 CE, Irenaeus argued Jesus was crucified c 50 CE so could not have known of the Pauline Corpus.

7. c 180-3rd century, Minucius Felix wrote about the story of Jesus but Nothing of Paul and the Pauline Corpus.

8. 3rd-4th century, Arnobius wrote about a story of Jesus but did not write anything abot Paul and the Pauline Corpus.

9. c 4th century, Ephraem the Syrian wrote Against Marcion and hardly mentioned Paul and the Pauline Corpus and did NOT claim Marcion knew of or manipulated the Pauline writings.

10. The earliest dated Pauline writings are around the 3rd century.

11. It is from the 4th century that ALL Apologetic writers knew of the Jesus story and the Pauline Corpus.

12. It is from the 4th century that Non-Apologetics begin to make arguments AGAINST the Pauline Corpus.

13. The Paul/Seneca Letters to place Paul in the 1st century has been found to be forgeries.

14. The Clement letter to place Paul in the 1st century has been found to be a forgery.

15. At six letters under the name of Paul have already been deduced to be forgeries or falsely attributed to Paul.
 
Apparently inferential logic is unreliable. So my guess is photographic evidence. Pics or it didn't happen!

You know perfectly well that logic dictates that you can't suggest a possible explanation unless you can epistemically prove that it is true. I mean, that how science works... right?
 
Gday,

Ten Christian Myths that show Jesus never existed.
How ridicules this thread is, the most remembered person throughout all of history never existed?

Remembered by who?
No-one remembered Jesus the person.
Not one person who allegedly met Jesus left any record behind.
None of the NT books were written by anyone who ever met Jesus.
In fact all we have is memories of Jesus' STORY, no memory of Jesus himself.



You would think that right off if he didn’t exist they would have put a stop to it

Who would?
How would they know Jesus didn't exist?
Why would they?

Did 'they' put a stop to scientology?
Did 'they' put a stop to Greek myths?

Kapyong
 
John Frum shows the fundamental flaw with point 4 (The fact that people were writing about an HJ by about 100 CE is some evidence that he might have existed in 30 CE) and with the Testimonium Flavium, Josephus James reference, and Tacitus even if they were entirely unaltered.
Is that not an absurd thing to write? It means that the seeming non-existence of John Frum indicates that the early writings are not even "some" evidence that Jesus existed and that the TF is not even "some" evidence that Jesus existed, even if the TF is entirely authentic!

Analogy: because Robin Hood and William Tell didn't exist, early writings about William Wallace are not even any evidence that William Wallace (a similar figure to whom many stories were attached) existed? Not merely are these stories not proof of Wallace's existence (because we know that stories can accrue round non-existent people, as in the other two cases); they are not even any sort of evidence that he existed, even if it can be shown that the stories are indeed early compositions, authentic to the authors to whom they are attributed.
 
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