Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

You promote attacking a grieving family based on a rumor , nice ,and telling.

I couldn't agree more. The only comment people should be making to Doug and the Moores is prove it. Show us the proof or at a minimum lay out the reasoning that is so convincing.

Every aspect of the PGP case against the kids should be put to the test. All of their mumbo jumbo such as the timelines of police arriving should be mocked when they can't put together a timeline of the murder.

We should mock their witnesses, their 'compatibles' and all their wild stories of riots and rape pranks.

I don't believe those that think this case should be judged on facts of the actual crime should join with the dark side and promote rumors or discuss points on the basis of 'if it were true'.

Recently it was said here that Rudy had been involved in 5 break-ins in a short period of time and that he had been stabbed in the stomach over a drug dispute but we really have no proof of those. Earlier someone claimed that a gold watch from Rudy's next door neighbor was found in his pack and subsequently disappeared but we only have one true crime novelist to base that on.

The dark side talks of things such as the coke dealer's phone number being in Amanda's phone speed dial based on one obscure news report.

I see no value in competing with them in spreading rumor.

 

[Bill Williams]

In my opinion, there are some good reasons why Amanda and Raffaele should remain silent and detached. First, information about their lives is nobody's business. The general public is violating their personal boundaries. It is not the defendants' responsibility to ease anyone's curiosity. They are trying to be helpful, but I think that will prove more draining than productive for them.

Second, I don't see how it can possibly be in the best interests of either one of them to continue to trust people who can't be trusted, although I recognize that when you are brought up in sane homes, it is a hard habit to break.

Third, victims often dwell on trying to understand the thinking and motivations of the people who victimized them. This is a waste of time. Not only is it something that can't be figured out, but it displaces energy that can be used for healing. It's like that saying about not allowing your enemies to live rent-free in your head.

The brouhaha about this case is a system of energy and actions. The less energy and the fewer actions A & R put into it, the more energy and actions must be expressed by others. It's not A & R's problem.

Unfortunately, that is one of the stages of healing (IMO) that one needs to go through, precisely to eventually realize that it does not good to continually think about those who have victimized you. It was a teenager who summed this up for me saying, "doing this allows them to live rent-free in your head."

After Jan 30 everyone needs to move on.

 

[Bill Williams]

You promote attacking a grieving family based on a rumor , nice ,and telling.

This is where you go off the rails, Briars.

No one is attacking a grieving family. However, if anyone, family member or not, spreads false rumours and attacks others, they cannot be given free reign.

And this is for their own sakes. The old proverb is, before seeking revenge, dig two graves. The Kerchers deserve peace, and they will never find that until Italy is honest with them as to what happened in Nov 2007, and until they grant themselves peace... in the case of John Snr., by understanding that the last half of his book was filled with the lies he'd been told as to how this horrible crime unfolded....

Me, I wish guilters/haters would quit playing the pity card - dealing it off the bottom of the deck. You see, Briars, this is not about what the Kerchers do or do not do... it's about how guilters/haters co opt their grief so that the haters can be bullies.

As Mary_H said...

The PGP don't want information, they want ammunition.

 

[andreajo]

If I allowed an acquaintance to use the bathroom, and I were going to my bedroom, I would direct the acquaintance to the bathroom furthest from my bedroom.

Your roommate would never have to know... Unless your acquaintance was a non-flusher

 

[Poppy1016]

You promote attacking a grieving family based on a rumor , nice ,and telling.

I cannot agree with this either. Even if it were proven to be true. It seems to be stooping to the level of those we argue against.

 

[Poppy1016]

On the other hand, the blood spots on the outside stairs don't look to me like anything that a pet would leave. Also, the blood smear on the downstairs lightswitch would not be the doing of a pet.

My questions:

Is the perp responsible for the outside drips? I think yes.

Did the perp get into the downstairs apartment? No sure about that.

If the perp did get into the downstairs apartment, then which blood spots did he leave? I think the answer would be the lightswitch and the shower. Not sure about the mattress and sofa.

Whose blood is in the drips? I think that the outside drips are diffuse Kercher blood. If the perp got inside, then maybe the shower is as well. Not sure about the others.

There is at least some solid evidence here:

1. A sample from the mattress clearly quantified positive for human DNA, and it appears that the ensuing egram (no. 601) was suppressed. It also appears that at least 4 other samples from the bed (comforter/mattress/pillowcase) quantified positive from human DNA, and ensuing egrams (nos. 600, 602-604) were suppressed.

2. Several of the outside blood drops tested positive for blood, and of these, several traces (nos. 47042, 47045, 47047) appear to have quantified positive for human DNA. Yet there is no indication that the samples were subjected to electrophoresis. Why not?

3. The downstairs lightswitch sample is the only downstairs sample tested after the suspect arrests on November 6. It appears that two egrams (nos. 688 and 689) resulted from the downstairs lightswitch test, and they have both been suppressed. Why?

If these things are true, it would seem to be a very strong point in favor of AK and RS.

 

[Briars]

This is where you go off the rails, Briars.

No one is attacking a grieving family. However, if anyone, family member or not, spreads false rumours and attacks others, they cannot be given free reign.

And this is for their own sakes. The old proverb is, before seeking revenge, dig two graves. The Kerchers deserve peace, and they will never find that until Italy is honest with them as to what happened in Nov 2007, and until they grant themselves peace... in the case of John Snr., by understanding that the last half of his book was filled with the lies he'd been told as to how this horrible crime unfolded....

Me, I wish guilters/haters would quit playing the pity card - dealing it off the bottom of the deck. You see, Briars, this is not about what the Kerchers do or do not do... it's about how guilters/haters co opt their grief so that the haters can be bullies.

As Mary_H said...

Bill you should quit your day job , that is ,your other day job.

 

[NancyS]

You promote attacking a grieving family based on a rumor , nice ,and telling.

I don't think anyone has done that - if it is true, it really is quite heartbreaking, grief can be all consuming and prevents you from having any perspective.

Here is a question for you Briars, regardless of who Harry Rag might be, do you approve of what he does - and do you think a grieving family would approve of what he does?

 

[Dan O.]

If I allowed an acquaintance to use the bathroom, and I were going to my bedroom, I would direct the acquaintance to the bathroom furthest from my bedroom.

That makes perfect sense. The key to the downstairs apartment was hanging right there in the entry hall. You would hand Rudy the key and send him on his way. He's used that bathroom before and is friends with the boys so you know they won't mind even if he doesn't flush again. The alternative is to send him to the bathroom that your roommates are responsible for keeping clean. You've just made a fuss about one roommate not cleaning the toilet, you are not going to compound that fuss by sending a man to soil the other one.

There is precedence for having the boyfriend use the bathroom closest to the girl he is visiting. In mid October, Laura had a handyman friend spend the night. He was "seen" comming out of the bathroom by the kitchen the next morning.

 

[GreyFox]

two wrongs dont make a right

You promote attacking a grieving family based on a rumor , nice ,and telling.

Can you prove that it's not true ?

Do you know who Harry Rag is ? If alone in a room do you feel Amanda would be safe with this stalker ?

Kind of like how Knox has had to defend herself against phony bathroom photo's and non existent bleach receipts, aids, or crazy theories of screams working their way through an acoustic amphitheater (valley) back to Nara's place .

Even as we speak there's a pit of vipers using a silly college prank as an excuse to stalk and lock up an innocent person. Do you care ???

 

[Strozzi]

Can you prove that it's not true ?

Do you know who Harry Rag is ? If alone in a room do you feel Amanda would be safe with this stalker ?

Kind of like how Knox has had to defend herself against phony bathroom photo's and non existent bleach receipts, aids, or crazy theories of screams working their way through an acoustic amphitheater (valley) back to Nara's place .

Even as we speak there's a pit of vipers using a silly college prank as an excuse to stalk and lock up an innocent person. Do you care ???

No, she doesn't care about the vitriolic lies being spread by hostile commentators like Harry Rag whose aim is to injure the defendants anyway possible, including in their trial. She is not hoping for justice based on objective evatuation of evidence. She is perfectly accepting of Italian ways of withholding key information such as the missing engrams. She is wishing for a conviction to vindicate her own accusations.

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief that is based on/due to false or incomplete information, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.

 

[Bill Williams]

I don't think anyone has done that - if it is true, it really is quite heartbreaking, grief can be all consuming and prevents you from having any perspective.

Here is a question for you Briars, regardless of who Harry Rag might be, do you approve of what he does - and do you think a grieving family would approve of what he does?

Briars will never answer this question directly. Not in a million years.

 

[Dan O.]

...

There is at least some solid evidence here:

1. A sample from the mattress clearly quantified positive for human DNA, and it appears that the ensuing egram (no. 601) was suppressed. It also appears that at least 4 other samples from the bed (comforter/mattress/pillowcase) quantified positive from human DNA, and ensuing egrams (nos. 600, 602-604) were suppressed.

I would be surprised I'd they didn't find human DNA on any bedding that wasn't freshly washed. Did they take substrate control samples of the bedding itself outside of the blood stains or was the forensics work done Italian style.

3. The downstairs lightswitch sample is the only downstairs sample tested after the suspect arrests on November 6. It appears that two egrams (nos. 688 and 689) resulted from the downstairs lightswitch test, and they have both been suppressed. Why?

We know that one person had a key to the downstairs apartment and would have reason to have entered that apartment, roll up the bedding on the downstairs bed, handle the injured cat and transfer blood from the cat to the light switch. She could not be questioned to verify if she was responsible for any of this and cats tend to not to respond to harsh interrogations.

I recall some of the injuries on Meredith's hands were point like pricks. The prosecution tried to claim that these were defensive wounds from fending off the point of a knife blade. To me, it sounds more like what you get from trying to pick up a cat that doesn't want to be picked up.

 

[codyjuneau]

On the other hand, the blood spots on the outside stairs don't look to me like anything that a pet would leave. Also, the blood smear on the downstairs lightswitch would not be the doing of a pet.

My questions:

Is the perp responsible for the outside drips? I think yes.

Did the perp get into the downstairs apartment? No sure about that.

If the perp did get into the downstairs apartment, then which blood spots did he leave? I think the answer would be the lightswitch and the shower. Not sure about the mattress and sofa.

Whose blood is in the drips? I think that the outside drips are diffuse Kercher blood. If the perp got inside, then maybe the shower is as well. Not sure about the others.

There is at least some solid evidence here:

1. A sample from the mattress clearly quantified positive for human DNA, and it appears that the ensuing egram (no. 601) was suppressed. It also appears that at least 4 other samples from the bed (comforter/mattress/pillowcase) quantified positive from human DNA, and ensuing egrams (nos. 600, 602-604) were suppressed.

2. Several of the outside blood drops tested positive for blood, and of these, several traces (nos. 47042, 47045, 47047) appear to have quantified positive for human DNA. Yet there is no indication that the samples were subjected to electrophoresis. Why not?

3. The downstairs lightswitch sample is the only downstairs sample tested after the suspect arrests on November 6. It appears that two egrams (nos. 688 and 689) resulted from the downstairs lightswitch test, and they have both been suppressed. Why?

.
After all the missing and withheld forensic results you have deduced Diocletus, I am surprised we are only hearing about the one sample from downstairs that tested positive for human blood.
.

 

[codyjuneau]

.

Grinder posted: I think only prank 'professionals' could 'enjoy' a prank. Pranks are intended to cause pain of one level or another. I was pushed into my junior high school locker by my assigned bully locker partner. I was claustrophobic and viewed it as a respite from being punched by said locker partner. It wasn't funny in any way.

CoulsdonUK posted: I wasn't suggesting that Amanda did anything more than what I got up to whilst at university although the example I gave almost got me and others kicked out when the parents of the guy we locked in the cupboard complained, unbeknownst to us this guy was claustrophobic, despite his pleas to us we didn't take him seriously. There was no malice, or intent to hurt the guy it was just a prank.

.

Hmmm ... Coulsdon, did you lock Grinder in a locker when he was a little boy?
.

 

[AmyStrange]

Attack on the family? Surely ye jest? You act like this family hasn't been on the attack for 6 years doing everything possible to make Amanda and Raffaele's lives miserable when the truth is staring them in the face.
At one time, you might be able to argue that they were innocent bystanders in this affair, but that time has long since past. Kercher wrote a book attacking Amanda, he hired an Italian attack dog who has said nothing but despicable lies about Amanda and Raffaele.

While it is a tragedy what happened to their daughter, it does not give them license to destroy two very innocent people's lives.

Overall Amanda Knox and her family have comported themselves with dignity and grace always giving the Kerchers a pass. And it appears that all the while the Kerchers have been using all their personal media expertise doing everything they can to make the Knoxs' lives a living hell.

At what point Briars do the Knoxs' say the hell with it? And take the gloves are off and use everything in their considerable power to expose this duplicitous and despicable behavior?

I don't actually expect the Knoxs to do that, but frankly sometimes I think they should.

-

Not only Amanda and Raffaele but their own daughter also!

By allowing Maresca to project their daughters death photo in court at the last trial is the most disgusting thing a lawyer and family can do to disrespect the victim.

And then to pretend to be impartial by saying they want all the evidence to be looked at again and then not even following their own advice, TALK ABOUT DISRESPECT!!!

d

-

 

[Strozzi]

I would be surprised I'd they didn't find human DNA on any bedding that wasn't freshly washed. Did they take substrate control samples of the bedding itself outside of the blood stains or was the forensics work done Italian style.

We know that one person had a key to the downstairs apartment and would have reason to have entered that apartment, roll up the bedding on the downstairs bed, handle the injured cat and transfer blood from the cat to the light switch. She could not be questioned to verify if she was responsible for any of this and cats tend to not to respond to harsh interrogations.

I recall some of the injuries on Meredith's hands were point like pricks. The prosecution tried to claim that these were defensive wounds from fending off the point of a knife blade. To me, it sounds more like what you get from trying to pick up a cat that doesn't want to be picked up.

Very interesting, Dan O. Never occurred to me that Meredith might have been tending the injured cat and dealing with cat blood downstairs.

Is there any information how the cat might have cut itself? I am assuming that the cat would have fled back away from the door area at the first noise of pounding or kicking on the door, and that the cat's injuries were therefore not caused at that moment but were sustained earlier by a broken glass or other sharp object. That is beside the fact that cat blood was already in several areas of the flat as soon as the police entered, which means that the cat did not become injured as the door was broken in and the police entered. If I recall, the cat had some way to get in and out of the downstairs flat through a window left ajar for that purpose. Was there broken glass outside that the cat might have cut itself on? Perhaps a shard of broken glass under Filomena's window? Overlooked by the police even on their smoking breaks?

I want to ask how long it took between the discovery of the victim's body for Perugia police to enter and search the downstairs flat?

In my view, the police should have immediately (instantly) broken into and searched the downstairs flat as soon as they discovered the body upstairs (I don't fault the way the police kicked in the door - I just fault how long it took them to do it after discovering the first body.) A second victim downstairs might have still been alive and in dire need of medical care. Who knows, the police might have even discovered the perpetrator holed up downstairs.

 

[Diocletus]

.
After all the missing and withheld forensic results you have deduced Diocletus, I am surprised we are only hearing about the one sample from downstairs that tested positive for human blood.
.

I believe that Sarah Gino testified about a sample that quantified positive for human DNA, but for which no egram was produced. We can very easily see that the sample she was referring to must be trace no. 47032, which shows a high quantity of human DNA in the PCR results. I contend that this was subjected to electrophoresis, and it generated an egram that bears no. 601 (not produced by Stefanoni).

I'm not sure whether Bongiorno's reported reference to a "human positive blood test" is in reference to the same sample, since we have quantification results showing human DNA and not blood test results showing human blood. If Bongiorno has actual blood test results showing a positive human species result, then this would be new to me. If, on the other hand, she is saying that there is a TMB-positive test that quantified positive for human DNA, then she could very well be speaking of trace no. 47032.

ETA: There are also cases of samples that purportedly tested positive for cat species, and yet, were subjected to quantification and returned positive for human DNA.

 

[Grinder]

Hmmm ... Coulsdon, did you lock Grinder in a locker when he was a little boy?
.

Just for the record my parents never were told.

Never get mad, just get even.

 

[Strozzi]

. . . cats tend to not to respond to harsh interrogations.

I tend to agree with you that the cat would reveal nothing, but I think the police might have come up with something incriminating from him if they had only called in their psychic to translate.