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Moderated What Caused the Plane Shaped Hole

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. I know the herd on this board think they have a lock on all knowledge, but I do suggest reading Leslie's expose on the film. It is very thorough and names names. Les would be angry to know I'm citing it, but I'm sure none of you will read it and he can kiss me anyway.

Leslie Raphael? Yeah, I've read it. One big argument from incredulity.


I'm still not seeing how you (& he) find it so difficult for a trained cameraman with several years experience to pan smoothly left & focus on one of the largest buildings ever made. Then, upon seeing a fracking jetliner crash into it, forget the finer points of his craft.
 
And I'm saying you're wrong, so I guess we should examine the gash and decide whose story best matches the evidence.

It's your turn.

Ok, according to the evidence presented in this thread that you are desperately trying to handwave away, (or just ignore) it was Flight 11.
 
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Ok, according to the evidence presented in this thread that you are desperately trying to handwave away, (or just ignore) it was Flight 11.

The thread is about the damage evidence, which has been completely ignored by the desperate true believers who point to fraudulent video as proof of their claims.

Let's review what you guys are hanging your hats on:

  1. Fraudulent video
  2. Testimony from the authorities now under investigation for massive fraud about 9/11
  3. Fraudulent video

Ohh...it's not looking good for the home team.
 
The thread is about the damage evidence, which has been completely ignored by the desperate true believers who point to fraudulent video as proof of their claims.

Let's review what you guys are hanging your hats on:


Fraudulent video

Says who? Oh..erm..you.

Testimony from the authorities now under investigation for massive fraud about 9/11

Aaah right, so some people exaggerated their health claims and this somehow renders normal people blind and negates the laws of physics? Say, this alleged fraud wouldn't involve the company that pays your salary would it? You know, the healthcare company that made massive profits from 9/11?

These first responders were people injured in the rescue operation. Are you now denying that there was a need to rescue people and the buildings never even collapsed? You admit people were hurt and injured, why wouldn't they need help.

Fraudulent video

The same video you're happy to admit is genuine up to the point where you call it a fraud? You were posting your comparisons of ground based cameramen and saying they were genuine over at DIF, how come suddenly this video testimony is acceptable and other video is not?

Ohh...it's not looking good for the home team.

This is the same tired old claptrap that gets trotted out by the moonhoax morons. "Nixon was a criminal therefore we didn't go to the moon", "Space shuttle astronaut goes loopy therefore we didn't go to the moon", "von Braun wa a Nazi therefore we didn't go to the moon" and so on ad nauseam.

"My back pain is slightly exaggerated" does not equate to "No terrorists were involved in 9/11 and there were no planes".

You've got nothing but "I don't believe it" but can't say why.
 
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Putting it in a way that tries to avoid breaching the MA and is sensible... the thread has run its course. The responses as of now regardless of intent have served little more than to feed the "entertainment" for the OP.... the whole basis of the OP rests on ignoring evidence that can't be ignored... so trying to correct it seems tantamount to speaking with a brick wall... but moreover I doubt that's the biggest issue with the direction of the tread, as what I'm reading clearly suggests.

Personally I do not understand what the fun is responding to repetitive nonsense - but we are in the minority.

And BTW the OP question:
"What Caused the Plane Shaped Hole?"

"The plane shaped hole was caused because the building was struck by a plane shaped object. To wit - a plane."

[/thread]
 
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There's no way you can prove a plane did it. If you could you would, but no one has because no one can.
You really don't get it.

The null position is terrorists flew planes into buildings causing much death and destruction. Evidence? Eyewitnesses, video, physical all present.

Your position? There were no planes, the thousands of witnesses were all in on it, the videos are all faked, live "TeeVee" was faked on the fly, the aircraft involved were intentionally disappeared elsewhere, likewise the passengers and crews, aircraft debris from the aircraft in question was deliberately placed by ???, radar data was faked, exotic holograms were used, missiles were deployed and launched, entire life histories were concocted for each and every vicsim by ??? including bio, photographs etc, NYPD and FDNY colluded, thousands of steel workers spent weeks remove structural components but were not noticed, the planes which did not exist nonetheless managed to impact only in those locations where the invisible workers removed structural components, in a stroke of evil genius the conspirators decide to use different actors for before and after shot cuz they are just that evil. Your evidence? Nothing.
 
[...]
If any one of you had a clue about basic physics you'd know how absolutely ludicrous such a statement is.
[...]
I am the only one on this board firmly rooted in reality.

Says who (as predicted) dodged these questions:

Why does the weight of the steel matter here, other than as an argument that favors inertia and thus cutting? Why are you neglecting to take into account the energy of the impact, which is what breaks chemical bonds? Why do you neglect to take into account the spars that were behind the sheeting as if the sheeting was the strongest structural member of the plane?

Dodge in 3... 2... 1...

ETA:
There are other questions you have still not answered in the thread, but I'm sure you can find them easily enough.

Name one, if you can.
You've got to be kidding.
 
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Maybe you read the cliff notes and missed the sequence where he panned around the intersection prior to the big show, and maybe you've never tried to pan a video camera to perfectly capture a small, fast object in the center of your screen, much less one moving 440 miles per hour, and
maybe
you've never used a tripod.

Maybe? may•be, mābē
adverb: maybe
perhaps; possibly.
"maybe I won't go back"
synonyms: perhaps, possibly, conceivably, it could be (that), it is possible (that), for all one knows.
"maybe the bus will be on time today"
noun
noun: maybe; plural noun: maybes
a mere possibility or probability.
"no ifs, buts, or maybes"

There is no “maybe” involved when I say you have no idea what I have done in life.

Did it ever occur to you that he panned around the area looking for a shot that offered the most open amount of sky available from his angle?
 
I clearly highlight the half dozen seams with only one half of the connections damaged, some top, some bottom.

The image accompanying this shows highlighted seams of damaged columns where the sections which the aircraft would have struck have been carried away but the neighbouring section which the aircraft would not have struck remains in place.

Now that looks to me as if a horizontal impact close to the joint caused the joint to fail rather than bending the whole column as a unit. So far so not very surprising.

Can you explain in more detail which aspect of this you find unexpected?
 
The funniest part of this thread is, yankee451 is the only one that has not actually answered the question raised in the OP.

"What caused the plane shaped hole"?
 
Yeah, keep telling yourself that. I know the herd on this board think they have a lock on all knowledge, but I do suggest reading Leslie's expose on the film. It is very thorough and names names. Les would be angry to know I'm citing it, but I'm sure none of you will read it and he can kiss me anyway.

While you are offering up “evidence”, would you mind stating who is claiming to have a “lock” on knowledge? The only one that I see claiming to have a lock on knowledge concerning the plane shaped in the north tower is you.

While you are at it, would you tell us where the crew that dismantled the 3 floors is the
“ impact area” hid all of the parts and pieces, including the thousands of square feet of concrete?
 
The Naudet video proves he was using a tripod to film a "before" sequence of the undamaged tower and used it to overlay a fuzzy jet-thingy over the live shot.

Naudet did not use a tripod. Firstly he would not have wanted or needed to use one. He was not then interviewing people, he was following them at work and he was using a lightweight camera. A tripod would have been unnecessary and merely a clumsy impediment. Secondly, the evidence of the footage itself shows he had no tripod. The shot which contains the impact previously shows the firefighters examining a manhole and there are lateral movements and tilts during that footage which would not have happened if Naudet had been using a tripod.

Why did Naudet turn and capture the impact? Ask yourself what he might have done if it hadn't been a terrorist attack but for some other reason a big jet was flying low and fast over Manhattan: The people he was filming heard the plane (as did he). It was unexpected enough that they stopped and looked up to follow it. After a few seconds capturing their reactions, he swung the camera round and pointed it down the street to try to capture whatever it was that had made them all react, quite possibly in response to the direct sound from the jet reaching him as it cleared the intervening building. It might have been nothing, or it might have been something interesting but either way it made his subjects stop what they were doing so he tried to get some footage of whatever it was in case they decided to use it.

So he just pointed his camera down the street at the clear sky and by chance a second or so later he captured the impact. He quite probably hadn't even picked out the plane in his viewfinder before it struck. Then he zoomed in. Then for a few seconds he tries to decide how best to re-compose the shot.

All quite natural. All perfectly believable. No tripods were harmed etc.
 
If a few missiles can cause the hole then so can FLT 11's wing

Re: 451’s claim that multiple cruise missiles caused the damage to the WTC1 columns, but not American Airlines Flight 11:
Fourth video down: http://yankee451.com/2013/12/27/911-north-tower-damage-3d/

“The foot-pound force … It is the energy transferred on applying a force of one pound-force (lbf) through a displacement of one foot. The corresponding SI unit is the joule.” -wiki
Presently, the imperial foot-pound is more empirically understood here in the US than the metric joule. At least up to the Space Shuttle program NASA has been using the Imperial (English) units in its hardware design and software. http://www.newscientist.com/article...-sticking-to-imperial-units.html#.UtKMT7R0l4s

(1) One JASSM missile (in service 2009) weighs 2, 000 lbs at 500 MPH = 17 million (MM) foot- pounds of energy.

- One wing of the 767 weighs 23,000 lbs + 9,000 lbs for the engine+33,000 lbs of fuel in that wing = 65,000 lbs at 470 mph = 480 MM foot-pounds of energy.

- So if the damage to the columns could have been produced by JASSMs hitting the columns at a glancing angle then so could one wing of the 767 hitting the columns head on. One Flight 11 wing had 28 times more kinetic energy than one cruise missile. It would take 28 JASSMs to equal the energy imparted to the columns by one of the 767’s wings. 451 shows four (non exploding) JASSMs hitting the columns where one of the wings hit. There are no calculations for this, just an arbitrary number that would not appear excessive. Then he shows three missiles that explode where the 767’s engines and fuselage penetrated. Under 451’s scenario it would take then, 56 non exploding cruise missiles to hit at an angle, different columns, plus three exploding ones to cause the damage done by the 767 at WTC1.

- The above calculations for one wing do not take into account the additional kinetic energy of the fuselage that was added to the attached wings.

- Flt 11 wingtips dented the outermost damaged columns because they had less mass. Smaller, no fuel.

A more complete calculation of the KE imparted by the entire plane:
Flt 11 weight 283,000 lb at 470 mph = 2.1 billion foot-pounds KE / 17MM per missile = the KE of 124 missiles.

(2) 451 shows the tiny wing of one 2,000 lb JASSM slicing into one of the columns. If this tiny light wing can cause such damage, so can the larger heavier 767 wing.
First video at 4:40 min. http://yankee451.com/2013/12/27/911-north-tower-damage-3d/

(3) “I am not claiming no one died, only that there could be no victims on non-existent floors struck by non-existent planes.” – yankee451
451 also claims that the footage of Flight 11 hitting WTC1 was not shown live on network TV, but was digitally altered to add the jet plane and hide the cruise missiles, then shown . No evidence for this claim.
451 needs to account for the over 40 videos recording the impact live on network TV and private videos, of Flight 175 hitting WTC2. He can’t show that all these videos were altered to hide his ~ 59 cruise missiles that hit WTC2.
This simple calculation doesn’t account for the all the other overwhelming evidence that the passenger jets were hijacked and hit the Towers, and that there is no evidence whatsoever that cruise missiles hit the Towers.

As Hitchens said – “What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence,” so this no-evidence missiles claim can be dismissed out of hand. The handicap of making up things without knowing engineering or physics is evident.
Will this and all the other overwhelming proportion of the evidence that Flights 11 and 175 struck the Towers change 451’s no-evidence opinion that his missiles claim is wrong? No it won’t. Only if in his mind reason trumps that what he wishes to believe isn’t so.
 
Re: 451’s claim that multiple cruise missiles caused the damage to the WTC1 columns, but not American Airlines Flight 11:
Fourth video down: http://yankee451.com/2013/12/27/911-north-tower-damage-3d/

“The foot-pound force … It is the energy transferred on applying a force of one pound-force (lbf) through a displacement of one foot. The corresponding SI unit is the joule.” -wiki
Presently, the imperial foot-pound is more empirically understood here in the US than the metric joule. At least up to the Space Shuttle program NASA has been using the Imperial (English) units in its hardware design and software. http://www.newscientist.com/article...-sticking-to-imperial-units.html#.UtKMT7R0l4s

(1) One JASSM missile (in service 2009) weighs 2, 000 lbs at 500 MPH = 17 million (MM) foot- pounds of energy.

- One wing of the 767 weighs 23,000 lbs + 9,000 lbs for the engine+33,000 lbs of fuel in that wing = 65,000 lbs at 470 mph = 480 MM foot-pounds of energy.

- So if the damage to the columns could have been produced by JASSMs hitting the columns at a glancing angle then so could one wing of the 767 hitting the columns head on. One Flight 11 wing had 28 times more kinetic energy than one cruise missile. It would take 28 JASSMs to equal the energy imparted to the columns by one of the 767’s wings. 451 shows four (non exploding) JASSMs hitting the columns where one of the wings hit. There are no calculations for this, just an arbitrary number that would not appear excessive. Then he shows three missiles that explode where the 767’s engines and fuselage penetrated. Under 451’s scenario it would take then, 56 non exploding cruise missiles to hit at an angle, different columns, plus three exploding ones to cause the damage done by the 767 at WTC1.

- The above calculations for one wing do not take into account the additional kinetic energy of the fuselage that was added to the attached wings.

- Flt 11 wingtips dented the outermost damaged columns because they had less mass. Smaller, no fuel.

A more complete calculation of the KE imparted by the entire plane:
Flt 11 weight 283,000 lb at 470 mph = 2.1 billion foot-pounds KE / 17MM per missile = the KE of 124 missiles.

(2) 451 shows the tiny wing of one 2,000 lb JASSM slicing into one of the columns. If this tiny light wing can cause such damage, so can the larger heavier 767 wing.
First video at 4:40 min. http://yankee451.com/2013/12/27/911-north-tower-damage-3d/

(3) “I am not claiming no one died, only that there could be no victims on non-existent floors struck by non-existent planes.” – yankee451
451 also claims that the footage of Flight 11 hitting WTC1 was not shown live on network TV, but was digitally altered to add the jet plane and hide the cruise missiles, then shown . No evidence for this claim.
451 needs to account for the over 40 videos recording the impact live on network TV and private videos, of Flight 175 hitting WTC2. He can’t show that all these videos were altered to hide his ~ 59 cruise missiles that hit WTC2.
This simple calculation doesn’t account for the all the other overwhelming evidence that the passenger jets were hijacked and hit the Towers, and that there is no evidence whatsoever that cruise missiles hit the Towers.

As Hitchens said – “What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence,” so this no-evidence missiles claim can be dismissed out of hand. The handicap of making up things without knowing engineering or physics is evident.
Will this and all the other overwhelming proportion of the evidence that Flights 11 and 175 struck the Towers change 451’s no-evidence opinion that his missiles claim is wrong? No it won’t. Only if in his mind reason trumps that what he wishes to believe isn’t so.

Oh brother.

The bent and twisted columns are ample evidence of multiple projectiles in east-west trajectories, not one large one in a north-south trajectory. But besides, a Boeing 767 couldn't cause the damage, else you'd be able to point to said proof, or attempt to provide your own.

Good luck.
 

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