Moderated What Caused the Plane Shaped Hole

[Mark F]

[qimg]http://conleys.com.au/smilies/thumbup.gif[/qimg]

I don't think it has been said but...

one characteristic of a plane is that it is plane shaped.

No way! That is the nuttiest thing I have heard all day.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Frankly I'm sorry to the OP and to the staff members that wound up having to clean the portion of the mess I made in the debate. I'd just seen this no planes argument since 2008 and contrary to the tone that the op sets none of the actual arguments are new. And they're wrong. If he wants to believe they made live holograms then maybe it would serve better to prove that argument beyond reasonable doubt as opposed to reciprocating the snipes. Otherwise I hardly see value in the thread either as an instrument for the op or as way to critique a topic that's been repeated.

In most respects I don't think more commentary is really needed unless the op is taken more seriously... not that I personally believe the no planes idea really can be taken that way

 

[DGM]

In most respects I don't think more commentary is really needed unless the op is taken more seriously... not that I personally believe the no planes idea really can be taken that way

Yankee451 actually believes there were planes. He just thinks the buildings needed to be specially rigged in order for them to do what they did. He's a "new" special flavor.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Yankee451 actually believes there were planes. He just thinks the buildings needed to be specially rigged in order for them to do what they did. He's a "new" special flavor.

Really? That's a change of direction, if so. Previously he was convinced there were no planes and the plane-shaped holes were carved by a fusilade of ultra-precise missile strikes from various angles.

 

[Mark F]

Yankee451 actually believes there were planes. He just thinks the buildings needed to be specially rigged in order for them to do what they did. He's a "new" special flavor.

That is some serious precision flying then for these no-talent hijacker pilots to line the planes up EXACTLY where the charges were.

Really, do we have to entertain things this dumb?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Really, do we have to entertain things this dumb?

No, quite the opposite in fact.

 

[thedopefishlives]

Really? That's a change of direction, if so. Previously he was convinced there were no planes and the plane-shaped holes were carved by a fusilade of ultra-precise missile strikes from various angles.

Oh, was yankee the guy who was rabbiting on about the JASSM? I loved that!

 

[I Ratant]

I’ll accept that, but I was trying to be nice.

.
You've noticed it Whooshed right over his head.
It is saddening over the years of watching this stuff to see noobs come in and pick up on the conspiracy parts only.
The actual reasons are fully and properly explained, and have been for 13 years now, and one would expect an intelligent observer to be capable of fingering the fact from the bizarre off-the-wall fictions, but, as my aero prof would say, "Thinking is painful", so the easy way out of swallowing cockamamie is the path easiest taken by these shlemeils.
And when their errors are dissected and corrected, invincibly ignorant properly describes them when they maintain their unsupportable positions.

 

[JSanderO]

Surely you can use your math to demonstrate how the east-west bends and twists were caused by aluminum sheeting formed into the shape of a jet with 30 degree swept back wings striking in a north-south trajectory.

Swept back in this case will not cause a wedge shaped damage. The force was enormous and normal... it was not parting the material like a bow of a ship.

Your analysis is flawed on this point.

 

[JSanderO]

First tell me how much the radome, cockpit and forward cabin impact retarded the forward momentum of the whole plane. We all know a real jet's wings would snap off at that point but there it is on the TeeVee, the whole plane sliding like butter into the building, so be conservative, how much did the fuselage impact slow down the rest of the plane?

Why would they snap off? You're just saying it.

 

[Robrob]

First tell me how much the radome, cockpit and forward cabin impact retarded the forward momentum of the whole plane. We all know a real jet's wings would snap off at that point but there it is on the TeeVee, the whole plane sliding like butter into the building, so be conservative, how much did the fuselage impact slow down the rest of the plane?

You've already acknowledged the mass of the wings (plus fuel). Why do you pretend otherwise?

 

[JSanderO]

My claim is that the damage evidence is inconsistent with a jet crash, you are simply clutching at any straw to avoid having to discuss how it is.

And the word I used was "all", it was you who used "several". Get your accusations straight. You said you'd appreciate my posting one, if not several examples. I did, but you didn't. Sue me.

While the tone of the comments is degrading and insulting... the content of several have explained how the materials would behave and it is consistent with the damage observed. Your statements and "beliefs" about physics and strengths of materials and energetic mechanical interactions have been shown to be incorrect.

The column bolts were not removed they sheared... and that would depend on how close the joint was to the impact mass. Some were very.. some were as much as 18' away. The staggered panels and the geometry of the plane and mass distribution account for the variety of facade and structural damage to the staggered panel system.

It appears to me that you are hunting for some science... science which does not exist... to support your preconception that planes caused all the damage. You are way above your pay grade here. But don't feel bad, most people haven't a clue about such things either and their world view is informed by Hollywood FX. We've got a population which has been educated by TV and Hollywood rubbish... and I think that includes you Mr Yankee.

 

[abaddon]

Swept back in this case will not cause a wedge shaped damage. The force was enormous and normal... it was not parting the material like a bow of a ship.

Your analysis is flawed on this point.

LOL. You are right. That is exactly what his cartoon physics predicts.

For some reason I am hearing the Ride of the Valkeries.

 

[Craig4]

You see had you watched the video or read the transcript you would know I was debunking the folks who claim a reinforced jet was used.

Why would you do that when your irrational belief is neither better nor worse than any other irrational belief about 9/11? Death rays, removed bolts, CDs, nano thermite, holograms, it's all a distinction without a difference. You're just sitting in a different car on the same crazy train, that's all.

 

[MIKILLINI]

in Randi World, the mass and weight of the building doesn't matter, only the speed of the wing, which also happens to be as sharp as a basketball

In this scenario physics doesn't take on the total mass and weight of the building, but it does take on the full weight and mass of a fuel laden 757 flying over 500 mph crashing into a specific area of the building. Sharpness takes on a whole different perspective; Harder and more defined than a basketball..

 

[000063]

That is some serious precision flying then for these no-talent hijacker pilots to line the planes up EXACTLY where the charges were.

Really, do we have to entertain things this dumb?

I've repeatedly asked Truthers how the bad guys managed to keep the charges from getting damaged.

Only Clayton has ever acknowledged the question, and he would only commit to hand-waving about "computer simulations".

 

[ozeco41]

I've repeatedly asked Truthers how the bad guys managed to keep the charges from getting damaged.

That is a measure of how low the standard of truther claims has fallen....and the debunker responses dragged down with them.

In the peak era of 9/11 internet discussions 2006-7-8 when there were quite a few 'genuine honest truthers' around all of those factors were routinely discussed as part of the need for a coherent complete explanation.

The truthers and trolls we see today are all "single anomaly" focussed. And the expressions "genuine truther" or "honest truther" are oxymorons.

Only Clayton has ever acknowledged the question, and he would only commit to hand-waving about "computer simulations".

Both Clayton and Ergo have occasionally asked sensible questions but AFAIK rarely gone to a second post stage of discussion and never to a third post of reasoned debate.

 

[Jim_MDP]

In this scenario physics doesn't take on the total mass and weight of the building, but it does take on the full weight and mass of a fuel laden 757 flying over 500 mph crashing into a specific area of the building. Sharpness takes on a whole different perspective; Harder and more defined than a basketball..

Truthers should never go the round ball route when we have video of a Ping-Pong ball passing through a Ping-Pong paddle.

 

[beachnut]

In this video I examine the North Tower impact damage on 9/11, allegedly caused by American Airlines Flight 11.

The damage evidence eliminates explosives alone as being the cause, and at the same time it eliminates a Boeing 767 or a reinforced jet of any kind. The video also dispenses with the hologram nonsense and pokes fun at the “mini-nuke” crowd as well as pokes a finger in the eye of the Judy Wood clique.

http://yankee451.com/2014/01/07/cut-plane-shaped-hole-episode-one/
...

The OP has a lie in the first sentence. It was flight 11, to say allegedly is wrong.

Next lie, the damage, a failed statement; damage proves it was a 767.

Next lie, it does not eliminate a 767, it proves a 767.

Next lie is the video, with continuous nonsense, debunks itself in 7 seconds.

Then the web site, "tons" of gibberish, like this.

But these floors were lightweight concrete on a sixty-foot truss system and were not designed for heavy loads, yet here we see what must be dozens of tons of debris, some of which fell 20 feet, to land in a heap on this floor. Comparatively the mechanical floors required I-beams to be able to support the big elevator motors and other heavy equipment, so what’s holding up this pile? Why didn’t the multi-ton wall panels plunge through this floor and every floor beneath it? Clearly this floor was heavily reinforced and I believe this is because they needed a big pile of debris to fill the hole so people wouldn’t notice the empty tower and the lack of jet parts behind it.

Fantasy to support a failed fantasy.

 

[david.watts]

First tell me how much the radome, cockpit and forward cabin impact retarded the forward momentum of the whole plane. We all know a real jet's wings would snap off at that point but there it is on the TeeVee, the whole plane sliding like butter into the building, so be conservative, how much did the fuselage impact slow down the rest of the plane?

Regarding the wings snapping off: As a pilot (including 757s and 767s), I don't think so. The wings are virtually "one" as they are "tied" together through/underneath the fuselage with the wing spar. And even if the wing spar were to "snap," the wings of the airplane would already virtually entirely be in the building in a swept back fashion within a nano-second longer than if they had not snapped at all, i.e., it would make no real difference.

This is not to say you do not make some interesting points. And what I say does not disprove what is shown in you video.