Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[yimyammer]

They have all had serious issues, but our recognition of that has never stopped them from being able to exercise their temporal powers.

Thus my concern

 

[Bill Williams]

Ok... then to be strictly correct....

If there is no conviction on any of the charges, there is no sentencing.

If there is a conviction on one or more charges, what Italy seems to do (as they did in Dec 2009 and Oct 2011) is announce the sentence at the same time as announcing the conviction.

I don't know if this is the preferable way or even the logical way of doing it, but with both the Massei and Hellmann courts this is what happened.

It appears to me that you've missed my point entirely; perhaps I didn't make it clear enough, so I'll try again. My point is that if it is true that Nencini set a schedule in advance for "sentencing" before there is even a conviction, that appears tantamount to pre-judging that there will be a conviction, even before the arguments and submissions are concluded.

I don't think so. All they are announcing is that *if* there are convictions on one or more charges, *then* the sentencing will be announced at the same time.

Of all the things sinister, I don't think this is one of them

 

[LashL]

He's a judge. Presumably, he knows that legal words have legal meanings, and no judge should be scheduling "sentencing" in advance of a conviction.

I'm more inclined to think that it's a "lost in translation" thing on behalf of the newspaper that published it. I would hate to think that any judge would be stupid enough to do what is purported to have been done here.

 

[RandyN]

Amy and Grinder,
With respect, I disagree with your assessment of Raffaele as a hero for not turning on Amanda, and I was not that comfortable with the title of Raff's book either.
Look, I respect that Raff has approached his ordeal with strength and dignity. I think he is a decent human being. It must have been horrible to face pressure from his family to 'turn' on Amanda.
But I don't think doing the right thing, doing his duty as a fellow human being should be necessarily considered heroic.
Plus, the omly way for Raff to extricate himself from this nightmare, morally and legally, was to tell the truth.
Finally, he does have to remember that without his confusion on the night of the 5th, Amanda woukd probably not have believed the police lies. I'm not blaming him, I'm just saying.

bri1...I agree with you 100%. I suppose this is harder for an Italian to do...simply tell and live with the truth. I do suspect RS family was pressuring him to go with the Italian way. That may seem harsh and prejudicial but this case has opened up a cultural indication that Italy seems to expect and sometimes even reward liars and cheats. They even allow and expect defendants to lie in court. Who else does that?

No RS is no hero. Simply an honest person... which in Italy makes him a rarity but certainly no hero...I don't think Italians have a clue about honor for the most part.

 

[Strozzi]

He's a judge. Presumably, he knows that legal words have legal meanings, and no judge should be scheduling "sentencing" in advance of a conviction.

I'm more inclined to think that it's a "lost in translation" thing on behalf of the newspaper that published it. I would hate to think that any judge would be stupid enough to do what is purported to have been done here.

LashL, here is the Italian quoted in post # 2108. Notice the last few words in Italian. I don't read Italian but that looks to me like the judge will announce "the sentence".

Il presidente della Corte d'assise d'appello di Firenze, Alessandro Nencini, ha calendarizzato le prossime udienze: il 20 gennaio sono previste le repliche e il 30 gennaio la camera di consiglio e la sentenza.

 

[RandyN]

He's a judge. Presumably, he knows that legal words have legal meanings, and no judge should be scheduling "sentencing" in advance of a conviction.

I'm more inclined to think that it's a "lost in translation" thing on behalf of the newspaper that published it. I would hate to think that any judge would be stupid enough to do what is purported to have been done here.

Gosh...if you think this is crazy then have a read over the Italian Supreme Court motivation report overturning the last appeal acquittal. Or for a real comical, crazy, judicial document read the 400 plus pages of the Massei motivation. The Italian judiciary has no issues contradicting itself, ignoring contempt from witnesses or prosecutors who feel free to lie and even when caught suffer no recourse as Stefanoni clearly did...without any consequence at all. They get caught twice attempting to slip false control documents into the case file and the judge has a few stern words but that's it. So this judge saying one stupid thing even if lost in translation is certainly not the high water mark for the corrupt circus that calls itself the judiciary in Italy. They have no system of checks or balances. To get rid of a real stinker they feel it best to promote them out of the way.

There is a reason the ECOHR charges Italy with the most violations by its courts of any other Western country. It is because they are totally out of control...I would hate to be an Italian. The mafia has more moral concept than the police and judiciary. Well pot and kettle perhaps.

 

[AmyStrange]

I don't think so. All they are announcing is that *if* there are convictions on one or more charges, *then* the sentencing will be announced at the same time.

Of all the things sinister, I don't think this is one of them

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I have to agree with Lash on this one. Even if it isn't suspicious, it certainly looks suspicious for them to announce it like that.

I just wish I could remember how they announced it in 2011, was it also as a judgement and sentencing day? They should really do away with that. The sentence changes from 26 years to no years to what now to what's next?

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[RandyN]

HR's posts could even show up from, say, PQ's place and I'm pretty sure they could still prove the accusation of the who's HR is and where he comes from and who he works for. That's all I'll say on that. Try to go after Doug all you want. It would only end up getting really embarrassing for the people who went after him. Put your money where your mouth is, though, really. Also, what Sr. did was pretty huge. Accusing someone of being a criminal is basically the equivalent. I think the intent from other people who believe in the innocence of Amanda and Raffaele is for him (HR)only to stop with the hate. Doug has some pretty good reasons to pretty mad. Although, we could have pretty good reasons too, now that I think of it (getting fired and all), but we'd have to go against a lot of people (especially reputation damage, we'd have a HUGE case on that one, trust me I know for sure). But ya know what, we just don't care...but we do not think that hate, from ANYONE is OK. I understand why there is hate. Some people are crazy, and then that whole "imprinting business", which the family suffered from (or rather has been the victim of).... look at what John Douglas says in his book "Law and Disorder". Steve wrote an article on this same subject, too, and I thought it was very gracious. Could he have left out the actual name John Jr.? I dunno, but I think that HR needs to come clean, otherwise he's making the family look bad. And THAT is not cool. The info came out for all to see, but how Steve dealt with that info, well I for one, I thought it was pretty cool and forgiving. He blogged about families and victims in addressing this. I don't know if you're allowed to post links here. It's on his blog. He ain't a dumb guy and wouldn't even insinuate unless he had good reason to right? The answer to that is "yes".

Yes MS Mignini fighter...you can post a link to Steves recent blog post here. It is on topic and topical. Rather than a link just copy and paste...I see that all the time here.

 

[RandyN]

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3 fried hard drives. Oooops! It's stuff like that, that the PGP camp conveniently forgets about or minimizes. It's part of the overall incompetence of the PLE and no one from the PGP camp wants to even really talk about it.

No, no, no it's the overall sexuality of Amanda that's the real big picture. I find it harder and harder everyday to keep believing that they are doing this in Meredith's memory.

All they have to do is to just look at everything from the other side. I've looked at it from the PGP side and most of it started from crap and now the only thing that's changed is the smell which changes with every new revelation that comes out about the ILE system.

They're pissed off because Amanda got off,

d

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Technically they ruined 4. Filomenas computer was returned fried as well. RS (1), AK, MK and FR all computers that had the data destroyed by the police "experts"!

 

[Bill Williams]

The hater/guilter lies continue. The guilter PR campaign is in high gear as the Nencini verdict nears. This article is being advertised by The Machine/Harry Rag as "Amanda Knox's startling admission she faked a break-in."

Sigh.

http://www.tekjournalismuk.com/45/post/2014/01/exclusive-amanda-knox-admits-staging-burglary.html

Please note, this used to be the guilter meme that Amanda Knox had participated in a "rape prank". Now she admits to being involved with others in an April Fools prank as a teenager in Seattle, and "Steven Wentworth", the author, has this as proof Knox is a seasoned break-in simulator.

"Wentworth" also resurrects Knox as organizing a street brawl...

The startlingly frank admission by Knox should also be seen in conjunction with the ticket she received for hosting a riotous party at the University of Washington. The party got out of hand, and guests were reported to the police for throwing rocks at passers-by. A picture begins to emerge of a woman who, prior to the crime in Perugia, was not risk-averse, was responsible for anti-social behaviour, and for causing upset and distress to her flatmates. The hazing confession, had it been made before the trial, may have been used as evidence of ‘prior acts of misconduct’. Indeed, the rock throwing party was brought up in the trial as evidence against Knox’s character.

Of course it was "brought up as evidence". Even Judge Massei dismissed it.... just because it is "brought up as evidence" does not make it true.

The slur PR Campaign against Knox continues.

 

[LashL]

LashL, here is the Italian quoted in post # 2108. Notice the last few words in Italian. I don't read Italian but that looks to me like the judge will announce "the sentence".

Il presidente della Corte d'assise d'appello di Firenze, Alessandro Nencini, ha calendarizzato le prossime udienze: il 20 gennaio sono previste le repliche e il 30 gennaio la camera di consiglio e la sentenza.

Yes, I understand that. My questions are (a) whether that's what the judge actually said or (b) whether that's what the newspaper extrapolated without it actually being said, and (c) whether there is a translation error somewhere along the line.

If, in fact, Nencini scheduled "judgment and sentencing" as the newspaper story appears to say, then there is something very wrong with that, in my view, as it would indicate a pre-judging of the matter before final submissions and arguments have even been made. If, on the other hand, the actual words were more like "judgment and disposition" rather than "judgment and sentencing", then it wouldn't be so objectionable.

 

[AmyStrange]

The hater/guilter lies continue. The guilter PR campaign is in high gear as the Nencini verdict nears. This article is being advertised by The Machine/Harry Rag as "Amanda Knox's startling admission she faked a break-in."

Sigh.

http://www.tekjournalismuk.com/45/post/2014/01/exclusive-amanda-knox-admits-staging-burglary.html

Please note, this used to be the guilter meme that Amanda Knox had participated in a "rape prank". Now she admits to being involved with others in an April Fools prank as a teenager in Seattle, and "Steven Wentworth", the author, has this as proof Knox is a seasoned break-in simulator.

"Wentworth" also resurrects Knox as organizing a street brawl...



Of course it was "brought up as evidence". Even Judge Massei dismissed it.... just because it is "brought up as evidence" does not make it true.

The slur PR Campaign against Knox continues.

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See, this is the kind of thing that proves to me that it's not about remembering Meredith. It's about getting that witch Amanda.

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[RandyN]

Please note that the wording in the headline and in the photo caption and first paragraph of this article is a mis-statement of what Amanda actually said.

Amanda said “ If convicted legally I'll be defined a ‘fugitive,’ but I will continue to fight for my innocence,’’ Knox said in the statement. “I will not willingly submit myself to injustice."

The headline states: "Amanda Knox: I will become a 'fugitive' if re-convicted for murder ".

The caption under the photo and the text of the first paragraph states it incorrectly as "Amanda Knox has reportedly told an Italian newspaper that if she is again convicted of murder, she will become a fugitive rather than return to an Italian prison."

Mis-statements are unfortunate realities in responding to interview questions, and can be compounded when the article is translated into another language. The only way Amanda, Raffaele, Mignini, and other principals in the case can protect themselves from having their precise statements modified by the media is not to speak with the media. That is not a limitation that Amanda and Raffaele are willing to put upon themselves, as the issues affecting them are too unjust for them to stay silent as non-persons.

Actually I think this article came from a UK reporter writing for some low life tabloid British rag but who is stationed in Italy. I doubt there was any confusion about translation. He did leave out Foxy Knoxy which is a bit of a surprise.

 

[AmyStrange]

Yes, I understand that. My questions are (a) whether that's what the judge actually said or (b) whether that's what the newspaper extrapolated without it actually being said, and (c) whether there is a translation error somewhere along the line.

If, in fact, Nencini scheduled "judgment and sentencing" as the newspaper story appears to say, then there is something very wrong with that, in my view, as it would indicate a pre-judging of the matter before final submissions and arguments have even been made. If, on the other hand, the actual words were more like "judgment and disposition" rather than "judgment and sentencing", then it wouldn't be so objectionable.

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I went to google translate and typed in "Judgement and disposition" and that translated into Italian as, "il giudizio e la disposizione".

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[whoanellie]

The hater/guilter lies continue. The guilter PR campaign is in high gear as the Nencini verdict nears. This article is being advertised by The Machine/Harry Rag as "Amanda Knox's startling admission she faked a break-in."

Sigh.

http://www.tekjournalismuk.com/45/post/2014/01/exclusive-amanda-knox-admits-staging-burglary.html

Please note, this used to be the guilter meme that Amanda Knox had participated in a "rape prank". Now she admits to being involved with others in an April Fools prank as a teenager in Seattle, and "Steven Wentworth", the author, has this as proof Knox is a seasoned break-in simulator.

"Wentworth" also resurrects Knox as organizing a street brawl...



Of course it was "brought up as evidence". Even Judge Massei dismissed it.... just because it is "brought up as evidence" does not make it true.

The slur PR Campaign against Knox continues.

Over on websleuths folks are congratulating themselves for solving the case with this prank theory. They have known all along she was guilty. Now they finally have a motive. I don't even know where to begin.........

 

[MDDVS]

Over on websleuths folks are congratulating themselves for solving the case with this prank theory. They have known all along she was guilty. Now they finally have a motive. I don't even know where to begin.........

Why don't they try to deal with the stomach contents evidence instead?

And please no lame replies like Machiavelli's. What the hell is even a non-continuous meal? And the bread "theory" was a bit ridiculous. Like he would know when the meal he ate reached the duodenum.

 

[RandyN]

Yes, until the Supreme Court agrees with the appeals court.

Actually this is not correct.

There are cases on record in Italy where the SC upheld the decision of the appeal court and the case was still retried and then overturned by a 3 judge panel. One case from year 2000 actually involved Judge Hellmann as one of the three panel members in a murder trial. Found guilty of murder and the conviction upheld by the SC but the guy was later freed by Hellamnn and company.

Perhaps our good friend Yummi/Mac can give us the details of the 2000 case. Pretty sure Grinders good friend ole whats her name from Seattle wrote a story about that. Perhaps she has the full details. She comes up if you Google it.

 

[LashL]

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See, this is the kind of thing that proves to me that it's not about remembering Meredith. It's about getting that witch Amanda.

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For those who have been conducting a hate campaign for several years now, it has never been about "remembering Meredith" and it has always been about "getting that witch Amanda (oh, and maybe that boyfriend of hers, what's his name, Raffaele somethingorother or somesuch)." I've never understood that twisted mentality at all, either, but there it is.

Weird.

 

[Mary_H]

Actually this is not correct.

There are cases on record in Italy where the SC upheld the decision of the appeal court and the case was still retried and then overturned by a 3 judge panel. One case from year 2000 actually involved Judge Hellmann as one of the three panel members in a murder trial. Found guilty of murder and the conviction upheld by the SC but the guy was later freed by Hellamnn and company.

Perhaps our good friend Yummi/Mac can give us the details of the 2000 case. Pretty sure Grinders good friend ole whats her name from Seattle wrote a story about that. Perhaps she has the full details. She comes up if you Google it.

Thanks, Randy. I am sure both Mach and Grinder will appreciate a chance to correct me.

 

[Mary_H]

Over on websleuths folks are congratulating themselves for solving the case with this prank theory. They have known all along she was guilty. Now they finally have a motive. I don't even know where to begin.........

My personal opinion is that Amanda and Raffaele should not answer questions or feel the need to explain themselves in any way. There are too many nuts out there interested only in entrapping them.