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Nailed: Ten Christian Myths that show Jesus never existed

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On almost every page of everyone of these threads we are told that there exist all sorts of proofs and evidence, and that we just chose not to look at them. Many times we are referenced to other threads, or other posts, but as it turns out, my point being, it all ends up being the bible

I am probably misinterpreting what you are asking

People have said that we have more evidence for Jesus than for most 1st century people who weren't rulers or such.

Most people are completely unknown. Some are referenced in one or two lines in someone's book. Some people write books. Some people have books written about them, most people don't.

We have books written about Jesus (including lots of stuff that isn't in the bible).
 
I wonder if this style of argumentation has ever convinced anyone to change their minds?

I'm willing to bet "no".

You are going to lose all your money.

People all over the world now see that the HJ argument is baseless and without a shred of evidence from antiquity.

The HJ argument was never based on evidence it was always based on plausibility.

That is precisely why there are multiple inventions of numerous plausible HJ which confirms a total lack of historical evidence.

Every HJ is plausible to its inventor.

There is ONLY one Jesus--the Son of God born of a Ghost and God Creator--the Last Adam made a Spirit.

There is NO HJ just MJ.

READ what your supposed Authentic Paul preached since 37-41 CE.

1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV
And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Jesus and Adam are Myths.
 
You are going to lose all your money.

People all over the world now see that the HJ argument is baseless and without a shred of evidence from antiquity.

The HJ argument was never based on evidence it was always based on plausibility.

That is precisely why there are multiple inventions of numerous plausible HJ which confirms a total lack of historical evidence.

Every HJ is plausible to its inventor.

There is ONLY one Jesus--the Son of God born of a Ghost and God Creator--the Last Adam made a Spirit.

There is NO HJ just MJ.

READ what your supposed Authentic Paul preached since 37-41 CE.

1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV

Jesus and Adam are Myths.

Still not convincing.
 
People have said that we have more evidence for Jesus than for most 1st century people who weren't rulers or such.

Most people are completely unknown. Some are referenced in one or two lines in someone's book. Some people write books. Some people have books written about them, most people don't.

We have books written about Jesus (including lots of stuff that isn't in the bible).

What?? How come HJers claim their Jesus was little known?

You now admit that there are books and lots of stuff about your Jesus but conveniently HJers claim their Jesus was little known and was Not the Christ.

Jesus Christ of the NT, if he did live, had more books of his biography than perhaps all the Emperors of Rome in the 1st century
 
What?? How come HJers claim their Jesus was little known?

You now admit that there are books and lots of stuff about your Jesus but conveniently HJers claim their Jesus was little known and was Not the Christ.

Jesus Christ of the NT, if he did live, had more books of his biography than perhaps all the Emperors of Rome in the 1st century

These arguments would be more effective if you actually target what people write, not what you prefer to argue against.

Lots of people were telling stories about Jesus, we have the books to prove it.

It may have started off small, but in a century or two, it grew pretty big.

Why is this confusing?
 
On almost every page of everyone of these threads we are told that there exist all sorts of proofs and evidence, and that we just chose not to look at them. Many times we are referenced to other threads, or other posts, but as it turns out, my point being, it all ends up being the bible

I am probably misinterpreting what you are asking

This thread might be a little different. There is one person participating in this thread that thinks it is at least very likely that an HJ existed and there is one person participating in this thread that is sure he didn't. Everybody else is deeply mired in uncertainty mitigated a bit on occasion with some weak support for their personal guess.

Nobody in this thread has suggested that they could provide proof for the existence of an HJ.
 
These arguments would be more effective if you actually target what people write, not what you prefer to argue against.

Lots of people were telling stories about Jesus, we have the books to prove it.

It may have started off small, but in a century or two, it grew pretty big.

Why is this confusing?

You are just exposing the very problems with the HJ argument.

You have forgotten that you are also claiming that Paul documented his preaching of Jesus which started c 37-41 CE within a few years of the supposed death of your little known preacher.

You forget that if your little known preacher did live that people would know that Paul's Epistles were a PACK of LIES or a Pack of Idiocy.

It is quite illogical that since 37-41 CE Paul would knowingly LIE to people who knew he was an actual known LIAR when he claimed the little known preacher was the Son of God and that he was raised from the dead to save mankind from Sin.
 
This thread might be a little different. There is one person participating in this thread that thinks it is at least very likely that an HJ existed and there is one person participating in this thread that is sure he didn't. Everybody else is deeply mired in uncertainty mitigated a bit on occasion with some weak support for their personal guess.

Nobody in this thread has suggested that they could provide proof for the existence of an HJ.

Nobody in this thread has provided evidence to support their argument for HJ.

This thread is not really about proof--it is really about evidence to support the arguments.

Those who argue that there was likely to be an HJ always refuse to present evidence or if they do it is found to be either a forgery or was unknown by Christians up to the 5th century.

Now, your claim that everybody else is mired in uncertainty about the existence or non-existence of Jesus implies that people like Galileo, Einstein and all those who have discovered what everybody else have not should be regarded as Idiots.

If you think Einstein was brilliant there perhaps everybody else was NOT.

At one time everybody else may have believed the earth was flat. Everybody else were idiots except Galileo.
 
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... Now, your claim that everybody else is mired in uncertainty about the existence or non-existence of Jesus implies that people like Galileo, Einstein and all those who have discovered what everybody else have not should be regarded as Idiots.

If you think Einstein was brilliant there perhaps everybody else was NOT.
You're suggesting that not being s person who publishes revolutionary theories makes you an idiot?
At one time everybody else may have believed the earth was flat. Everybody else were idiots except Galileo.
I think you should read more about this. Everybody except Galileo did not believe the earth was flat in the seventeenth century. No educated person believed any such thing, and neither did the Church.
 
You are just exposing the very problems with the HJ argument.

You have forgotten that you are also claiming that Paul documented his preaching of Jesus which started c 37-41 CE within a few years of the supposed death of your little known preacher.

You forget that if your little known preacher did live that people would know that Paul's Epistles were a PACK of LIES or a Pack of Idiocy.

It is quite illogical that since 37-41 CE Paul would knowingly LIE to people who knew he was an actual known LIAR when he claimed the little known preacher was the Son of God and that he was raised from the dead to save mankind from Sin.

Speaking of Paul, he's recorded as performing several miracles in Acts. Does that mean he didn't exist either?
 
The position that's been presented is that it's quite plausible that there was an historical personage who was mythologized by his religious followers and subsequent generations of believers. It is also possible that Jesus was entirely mythical, but this hypothesis is less parsimonious than the historical Jesus hypothesis.



On what basis did anyone decide that it's "more parsimonious" (you mean “simpler“, and hence more likely) that Jesus was real? How was that decided?

How was that decided when your only actual evidence mention of him is the bible?

How in the world is it sensible to believe that the bible is reliable or credible factual writing of history?


Here are just some of the problems which render the bible completely unreliable and not remotely credible as a factual source of anything about belief in Jesus -


1. The gospels are from anonymous devotional religious writers who never knew Jesus in any way at all, but instead obtained their Jesus beliefs from still more unknown anonymous religious believers who also did not know Jesus, but who had apparently said that they believed there were legends of other people who had once been disciples of Jesus who would surely have known things about him.

2. Even those anonymous hearsay devotional gospels are known only from Christian devotional copyist writing, which in any relatively complete and readable form, dates from the 4th century and later (mostly from the 6th century onwards).

3. Paul's letters are again written by someone who never knew Jesus at all, but who believed in Jesus (as the author continually says) because of that which “is written”, “from scripture” and “according to revelation”. That is a theological belief, not an account from anyone who ever knew a single thing about any living Jesus.

4. Out of 13 letters once all claimed to be written by Paul himself, 6 or 7 are now thought to be written by some other unknown authors. Who actually wrote the “authentic” 6 or 7 is of course not known.

5 The earliest copy of any letters attributed to Paul is said to be Papyrus P46 which religious scholars usually date at circa.200AD. That’s about 150 years after Paul had died and nearly 200 years after Jesus was thought to have lived.

6. All four of the gospels continually describe Jesus performing numerous miracles, all described in great detail, often even including verbatim accounts of exactly what Jesus and others actually said!! In the first century everyone was certain that such miracles definitely happened, and that they were absolute proof that Jesus was indeed the messiah of God. But now we know the precise opposite to be true and those miracle claims are all false and actually prove that such 1st century religious superstitious writing is simply not credible and not true.

7. The same applies to the letters of Paul, where the very little Paul tells anyone about Jesus is that he was a supernatural figure who rose back to life after being dead for three days, and later proved it by appearing to more than 500 people.

8. The biblical stories of Jesus can frequently be shown to have been copied from what had been written centuries before as prophecy in the Old Testament. And in fact Paul and the gospel authors actually say that those old scriptures were their source for the stories they told of their belief in Jesus as their messiah.


It is not “more parsimonious to believe Jesus was real” from writing as totally discredited and un-factual as that. It is “more parsimonious”, and certainly more objectively true, to conclude that such writing is "proven" untrue devotional religious 1st century superstition which is not reliable or credible in any useful measure at all.
 
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A sensible post. I wonder what are the positive arguments for MJ? As you say, arguments of the form, 'Jesus is described as doing miracles, therefore he is mythical' are beyond inane, and I'm not sure anyone says anything so absurd.

I suppose if you negate HJ, you might then conclude that MJ is correct, but that seems a bit fuzzy.

Then there is the Doherty stuff, that Jesus is actually described as a celestial figure in some places, e.g. as a pre-existent deity who created the world, and as the Logos.

But this can be assimilated into HJ quite easily, if one accepts the 'standard trajectory' - Jewish charismatic preacher, to whom miracles are ascribed (in the normal Jewish manner), then becomes subject to a Hellenistic divinization, after death.

But Stone did point out a while ago, that some early textual layers may point to an early divine Jesus, which seems unpalatable in Judaism, so that complicates matters, if correct.

zuzwang, what would you consider a positive argument for a MJ?

The post that ZugZwang (sp.?) references is over in another thread --

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9261094&highlight=GThomas#post9261094

-- It's rather a long posting. But the main section, in which I address the vaguely divine intimations in the earliest textual strata, starts when I address DaveFoc's question: "Do you think Jesus himself played a significant role in the formation of Christian ideology?"

Essentially, the earlier the apparent stratum of a given passage, the fewer the number of dubious magic stunts in the narrational material. But what my referenced post concentrates on are a few of the remarks accredited to Jesus the rabbi in the most colloquial strata. There, we have the occasional odd reference to God as a "father" of Jesus and the notion that Jesus is somehow in a position to "bequeath" an "inheritance" from God that others cannot, necessarily, provide.

Now all that is a far cry from the highly developed "Son-of-God" formulations in something like GJohn, for instance (in fact, there is no trace at all of the colloquial earliest strata anywhere in GJohn). But it sheds some light on how come the notion of Jesus being somehow a "Son-of-God" grew such legs later on after Jesus was safely dead and could no longer say, "Hold on one minute".

Stone


Thanks for bringing up those strata teachings, Stone. I find them most attractive, though I seem to recall reading that they aren't taken seriously as a portraiture of Jesus' nature these days in mainstream academia.
I could be wrong on that, of course, but I had the impression Jesus iscurrently viewed as a full-throttle apocalyptic preacher.



On almost every page of everyone of these threads we are told that there exist all sorts of proofs and evidence, and that we just chose not to look at them. Many times we are referenced to other threads, or other posts, but as it turns out, my point being, it all ends up being the bible

I am probably misinterpreting what you are asking

Up to a point, you're quite right, piplineaudio.
What we find outside of the bible is context, AFAIK.
I'm currently wading through non-biblical sources.
While fascinating and with the added benefit of keeping me away from shopping, when I take what I learn back to the biblical sources, the figure of Jesus just seems to disappear into smoke and mirrors.
I'm even to the point of wondering if Jesus was actually crucified. :confused:
 
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On almost every page of everyone of these threads we are told that there exist all sorts of proofs and evidence, and that we just chose not to look at them.

That's odd. I specifically remember everyone saying that the evidence is weak -- Dejudge loves to bring that back up, so at least he read that -- but that we can infer some things from it. In particular, the very existence of Christianity requires an explanation, historically-speaking, and the one that raises the fewer questions seems to be HJ.
 
This thread might be a little different. There is one person participating in this thread that thinks it is at least very likely that an HJ existed and there is one person participating in this thread that is sure he didn't. Everybody else is deeply mired in uncertainty mitigated a bit on occasion with some weak support for their personal guess.

Nobody in this thread has suggested that they could provide proof for the existence of an HJ.

Well I see someone has read this thread. :)
 
On what basis did anyone decide that it's "more parsimonious" (you mean “simpler“, and hence more likely) that Jesus was real? How was that decided?

Let's try this: as someone asked, Paul is described as making miracles, and we have next to no evidence for his existence. Does that mean he is mythical ?
 
Let's try this: as someone asked, Paul is described as making miracles, and we have next to no evidence for his existence. Does that mean he is mythical ?

Is this like the Stevie Wonder is God theorem?
 
Speaking of Paul, he's recorded as performing several miracles in Acts. Does that mean he didn't exist either?
Good point. As I've written in one of these threads: miracles are ten a penny. You can pick and choose them, on the basis of plausibility. We even hear about them in modern times, attributed to people whom we know existed. There's a whole cult of Padre Pio miracles - healing, stigmata, bilocation, food multiplication - all sorts of stuff.
 
...the very existence of Christianity requires an explanation, historically-speaking, and the one that raises the fewer questions seems to be HJ.

Hi, Belz.
That makes sense, until I'm reminded of the EbionitesWP.
"Tertullian was the first to write against a heresiarch called Ebion; scholars believe he derived this name from a literal reading of Ebionaioi as "followers of Ebion a derivation now considered mistaken for lack of any more substantial references to such a figure.[11][13]"

Heresiarch is especially good, don't you think?
 
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