Richard Dawkins -- Islamophobia?

A'isha said:
http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

Majorities of Muslims in several of the largest and most populous Muslim-majority countries are against it, at least.
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From your link:

At least three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan say they would favor making each of the following the law in their countries: stoning people who commit adultery, whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion. Majorities of Muslims in Jordan and Nigeria also favor these harsh punishments.
 
tsig said:
From your link:

At least three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan say they would favor making each of the following the law in their countries: stoning people who commit adultery, whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion. Majorities of Muslims in Jordan and Nigeria also favor these harsh punishments.
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Yes. However, those were not the only countries surveyed.
 
A'isha said:
Saying "But to get fat, that takes sitting on your couch all day and not getting exercise", on the other hand, pretty much does.

And I apologize to Polaris if I'm misconstruing his argument, but he certainly seems to be arguing that it takes religion and no other non-religious ideology to make good people do evil things.



I enjoy discussing things with you, even in a heated fashion on a contentious topic like this.

But I have no interest in getting into this kind of fight with you.



It was pretty clear to me and to others (including the Pakistani atheist who, as you have apparently discovered by now, is not a "coddler of Islam") that Dawkins meant it as such.



Muslims are not a hive mind, and some Muslim countries have overwhelming majorities of people for stoning, and other Muslim countries (with far more Muslims in them than the pro-stoning countries) have overwhelming majorities against stoning.

"Muslims are for stoning people because Islam!" is therefore the wrong conclusion to draw.
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If it's not for Islam then why do do some Muslims want stoneings?
 
blutoski said:
Notice the disconnect... let's assume he's following the orders of his Imam... that's still not 'Islam' and that's why universalizing the criticism is unjustified.

This is all Critical Thinking 100 - the fallacy is called Hasty Generalization.

When Hasty Generalization is applied to people, it is usually called bigotry.

"I was in a car accident with a black man; black people are bad drivers"
"An Imam advocated something unethical in the name of Islam; Moslems are unethical in the name of Islam"
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So the individual Muslim isn't Islam, the Imam isn't Islam, whole countries aren't Islam, where can we find this Islam?
 
Polaris said:
I think you need to reread the definition of circular logic. Terrorism isn't good because it harms people for no good reason.
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Before I comment on that, is it a joke? To avoid circular reasoning we say things aren't good because they're no good! Would terrorism be good if it harmed people for a good reason? Or morally neutral if it harmed people for a morally neutral reason?
 
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Yeah, that Weinberg quote is indeed silly. To say, "that takes religion" does indeed suggest that other things could not make "good people" do "bad things".

However, quite obviously a "good person" (if you define that as a person who usually does good things - I assume we are not talking about someone with a good "soul") who does bad things might do it for a variety of other reasons, such as:

grief
mental illness
misunderstanding
fear

etc...

Similarly, it is possible that a "bad person" may do "good things" because of religion. It seems to be true that a lot of people who turn to religion in prisons go straight or stay away from drugs or gangs. We can call them delusional for it, of course, but it may indeed turn them into good people.
 
tsig said:
So the individual Muslim isn't Islam, the Imam isn't Islam, whole countries aren't Islam, where can we find this Islam?
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If you think it's a monolith, you will indeed look for it in vain, or seize on an aspect of it and take that for the whole - an evil aspect if you are prejudiced against, a good, if for - when in reality it is as disparate as other religions, and resides in the form of various things, good, bad and indifferent, in the minds of its diverse adherents. What these adherents have in common is acceptance of some statements of supernatural belief which, like religious or secular supernatural beliefs in general, are entirely false and illusory.
 
#170 Posted by A'isha
Well, I certainly confess to having a bias against Dawkins.
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Also, from #219
It was pretty clear to me
and to others ... ... that Dawkins meant it as such.
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One of the reasons I posted before was because I have never read any of what RD says. Everything has been via CD, radio or TV. At no time have I heard him speak in other than good, clear English, and with other than courtesy; and when in debates or interviews, with consideration. Of course he has strong opinions but in my opinion, he expresses them well. I may be wrong here, but would be interested if you can produce an audio clip of him stating his views in a rude manner. I cannot - and have no particular desire to! - follow tweets and stuff, but I do wonder whether it is the reader who decides in what tone of voice they were written?




(
 
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Tony said:
Uhhh..



We have majorities in 4 Muslim countries who favor stonings for adultery, dismemberment for theft and death for apostasy. In 3 countries majorities were against those things. For this survey, the majority of countries have majorities who support stoning and other cruel punishments for petty crimes. Again, how does this support your claim that most Muslims find stoning disgusting?
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Statistically maybe most don't, but this survey hardly does anything to support the "Islam is a religion of peace" contention. That such large majorities in important Muslim countries support barbaric acts is very, very telling.
 
angrysoba said:
...
Similarly, it is possible that a "bad person" may do "good things" because of religion. It seems to be true that a lot of people who turn to religion in prisons go straight or stay away from drugs or gangs. We can call them delusional for it, of course, but it may indeed turn them into good people.
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I think this is a very interesting point.

Are there statistics on this? I'm not saying its false , but I'd like to see the numbers.

Are Convicts offered any other types of "Moral Guidance", like Ethics?
 
A'isha said:
People who commit atrocities always find some way to justify their actions. Religion is one way, but hardly the only one.
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It's much easier, I would imagine, to do very bad things when one majically believes it will be all sorted out in the end by some fairy.
 
3point14 said:
It's much easier, I would imagine, to do very bad things when one majically believes it will be all sorted out in the end by some fairy.
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Or secularly believes that it is all part of the stern ineluctable Progress of Humanity.
 
Brainache said:
I think this is a very interesting point.

Are there statistics on this? I'm not saying its false , but I'd like to see the numbers.

Are Convicts offered any other types of "Moral Guidance", like Ethics?
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I don't have statistics, and I don't think they're relevant as it is the logic of the Weinstein quote that I am challenging.
 
Craig B said:
Before I comment on that, is it a joke? To avoid circular reasoning we say things aren't good because they're no good! Would terrorism be good if it harmed people for a good reason? Or morally neutral if it harmed people for a morally neutral reason?
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It's not a joke. There's never a good enough reason for terrorism, and it's never neutral.
 
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