Deeper than primes - Continuation

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But you are forgetting the background of the Hotel. It already has people in the rooms.

Edit: either you have a guest without a room, or an existing room without and existing guest. Both violate the starting conditions.
EDIT:

We are dealing here only with actual guests (that are already in the hotel).

A guest without a room is not an actual guest of Hilbert's Hotel.
 
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I see you persist in using your own private meaning for 'function' -- quite unnecessarily, too, but what of that -- and you persist in misusing '1-to-1' and 'onto'.
It is an expanded meaning for 'function', where in addition to the term that for any input there must an output, there is also the term that there is input without any output.

This expansion is quite unnecessary in order to not missing what's really going in Hilbert's Hotel framework.

Let's put that aside, though. Instead, I'd like to know what you mean by 'cardinality', since that appears to be a private doronism as well. In particular, how do you make relative comparisons of the cardinality of two sets?
Cardinality is the size of a given set in a way that does not take into account its structure.

The relative comparisons of the cardinality of two sets, is done by the expanded function, whether a set has bounded amount of members or unbounded amount of members.

Once again:

By using the traditional definition of function ("some x in X has exactly one y in Y"), we conclude (or we discover) that , for example, {1,2,3,4,5} and {9,7,6} do not have the same finite cardinality because there is no function from {1,2,3,4,5} to {9,7,6} in two cases, as follows:
Code:
{1,2,3,4,5}
 ↓ ↓ ↓
{9,7,6}

By using the non-traditional definition of function ("x in X has at most one y in Y"), we conclude (or we discover) that , for example, {1,2,3,4,5} and {9,7,6} do not have the same finite cardinality because there are two functions from {1,2,3,4,5} to {9,7,6} that do not return any value from {9,7,6}, as follows:
Code:
{1,2,3,4,5}
 ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓
{9,7,6}

So in the case of finite cardinality, the traditional and non-traditional definition of function, provide the same results (or the same discoveries).

Now let us use the non-traditional definition of function in case of the set of all natural numbers (which has an unbounded amount of members), as used in Hilbert's Hotel.

The names of the rooms and the names of the visitors in that hotel are actually all the members of the set of all natural numbers (notated by N), and in order to see what really happens in Hilbert's Hotel let's play with the pairs' game, by using an expression of the form (x,y) as follows:

The outer "(" and ")" define Hilbert's hotel environment.

x defines the name of a given room in that environment.

y defines a room in that environment such that it can be without any visitor (notated by ()) OR with exactly one visitor (notated by (n), where n is a placeholder for some visitor's name).

In the following pairs' game framework, where there is a function from rooms' names and visitors' names (such that both names are in 1-to-1 and onto from the names to the set of all natural numbers)

(1,(1))
(2,(2))
(3,(3))
(4,(4))
(5,(5))
...

is expressed by

1 → 1
2 → 2
3 → 3
4 → 4
5 → 5
...

which shows that |N| = |N|

---------------------------------------------

In the following pairs' game framework, where there is a function from rooms' names and visitors' names (such that both names are in 1-to-1 and onto from the names to the set of all natural numbers)

(1,(1))
(2,( ))
(3,(2))
(4,(3))
(5,(4))
...

is expressed by

1 → 1
2 →
3 → 2
4 → 3
5 → 4
...

which shows that |N| > |N|

---------------------------------------------

|N| > |N| is deducible only if the definition of function is:

x in X has at most one y in Y

Such definition enables to define function even if it has an input but not any output (as seen, for example, in 2 → ).

---------------------------------------------

|N| > |N| is not deducible if the definition of function is:

x in X has exactly one y in Y

Such definition does not enable to define function unless it has input and output (for example, 2 → is not deducible by such definition).

--------------------------------------------------

In other words, |N| > |N| is deducible only if the non-traditional definition of function is used.
 
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Seems you overlooked this, Doron:

I see you persist in using your own private meaning for 'function' -- quite unnecessarily, too, but what of that -- and you persist in misusing '1-to-1' and 'onto'.

Let's put that aside, though. Instead, I'd like to know what you mean by 'cardinality', since that appears to be a private doronism as well. In particular, how do you make relative comparisons of the cardinality of two sets?


I'd like to know what you mean by 'cardinality', since that appears to be a private doronism. In particular, how do you make relative comparisons of the cardinality of two sets?
 
<predicate> means N.

The definition of function is "x in X has at most one y in Y", which enables also functions with input that do not have any output.

<snippety by realpaladin>

EDIT:

Once again, the names of the rooms and the names of the visitors in that hotel are actually all the members of the set of all natural numbers (notated by N), and no members other than natural numbers are used in Hilbert's Hotel framework after moving visitors (such that no visitor left the hotel) AND before visitors' new reception.

Were you on the legal counsil of Bill Clinton?

Now I need to explain what 'means' actually means... I hope not.


Doron, you are doing everything by example, but examples are never complete nor rigorous.

You *have* to define your 'dictionary'. Then you can explain what it *means*.

Definition and meaning are two separate things.

You keep on showing that we are in a 7 year linguistics course for Doron and nothing else.
 
Were you on the legal counsil of Bill Clinton?

Now I need to explain what 'means' actually means... I hope not.


Doron, you are doing everything by example, but examples are never complete nor rigorous.

You *have* to define your 'dictionary'. Then you can explain what it *means*.

Definition and meaning are two separate things.

You keep on showing that we are in a 7 year linguistics course for Doron and nothing else.

Not to mention that there's absolutely no progress on that front either...
 
Not to mention that there's absolutely no progress on that front either...

Over the years I mentioned several mental disorders that may have caused this.

The baroque style and hubris in his 'publications' point to a combination of Dunning/Kruger + Cargo Cult Science.

For the Cargo Cult Science there is ample evidence in this (and the previous thread); the overuse of 'it is clear', 'it is shown' and other fragments that one would normally find in real publications.

In Doron's case he never understands that if just one person disagrees that this means that 'it is not clear' and neither 'is it shown'.

But then he shies away from following through from A to Z by defining terms, defining relations by defining operators, etc.

All we get is meconium with undigestable chunks of formatting...
 

"Already given" in the sense of editing a prior post after I'd asked a second time.

Nevertheless, let's look at your answer:

Cardinality is the size of a given set in a way that does not take into account its structure.

As a conceptual back-drop for cardinality, that works, but as a definition it falls way short. You'd need to define 'size' at the very least.

What is the size, for example, of the set of odd integers? of the set of real numbers between 2 and 3?

The relative comparisons of the cardinality of two sets, is done by the expanded function, whether a set has bounded amount of members or unbounded amount of members.

You need to be more specific. You are telling us about the comparison, but not the details of how it is done and how you assess the result.


Here, if it is any help to you, is how I'd define cardinality of sets:

Conceptually, cardinality is a measure of set size. It is convenient to think of cardinality as "how many" and assign a number to it to make it an absolute measure. The cardinality of a set of 4 apples would be 4, for example.

However, since arithmetic is built on set theory and not the other way around, defining cardinality of sets in terms of numbers isn't appropriate. Instead, we can define it as a relative measure, the comparison of the cardinality of two sets, and thereby avoid the use of numbers (until later).

For any sets A and B, if there exists a one-to-one mapping from A to B, then the cardinality of set A is less than or equal to the cardinality of set B. A pair of vertical bars are commonly used to denote cardinality, so |A| <= |B|.

The basic properties of the <= relation can be used to establish the other comparison relations (=, for example), and thus our definition for relative cardinality is complete. It is unambiguous and consistent.

Now, to establish cardinality in an absolute sense, we can rely on the Axiom of Infinity and the standard correspondence to the natural numbers. The cardinality of each member of the von Neumann set is the natural number corresponding to that member. And, of course, any two sets with the same relative cardinality would then each have the same absolute cardinality.

Relative cardinality works for all sets; absolute cardinality requires an extension to the natural numbers to be applicable to infinite sets.
 
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Doron, you are doing everything by example, but examples are never complete nor rigorous.
This is exactly what I did in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9742045#post9742045

Here it is:

<predicate> means N.

The definition of function is "x in X has at most one y in Y", which enables also functions with input that do not have any output.

The rest of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9742045#post9742045 shows how the new definition of function rigorously provide interesting results, which are derived from the set of all natural numbers (notated as N).
 
"Already given" in the sense of editing a prior post after I'd asked a second time.

Nevertheless, let's look at your answer:



As a conceptual back-drop for cardinality, that works, but as a definition it falls way short. You'd need to define 'size' at the very least.

What is the size, for example, of the set of odd integers? of the set of real numbers between 2 and 3?



You need to be more specific. You are telling us about the comparison, but not the details of how it is done and how you assess the result.


Here, if it is any help to you, is how I'd define cardinality of sets:

Conceptually, cardinality is a measure of set size. It is convenient to think of cardinality as "how many" and assign a number to it to make it an absolute measure. The cardinality of a set of 4 apples would be 4, for example.

However, since arithmetic is built on set theory and not the other way around, defining cardinality of sets in terms of numbers isn't appropriate. Instead, we can define it as a relative measure, the comparison of the cardinality of two sets, and thereby avoid the use of numbers (until later).

For any sets A and B, if there exists a one-to-one mapping from A to B, then the cardinality of set A is less than or equal to the cardinality of set B. A pair of vertical bars are commonly used to denote cardinality, so |A| <= |B|.

The basic properties of the <= relation can be used to establish the other comparison relations (=, for example), and thus our definition for relative cardinality is complete. It is unambiguous and consistent.

Now, to establish cardinality in an absolute sense, we can rely on the Axiom of Infinity and the standard correspondence to the natural numbers. The cardinality of each member of the von Neumann set is the natural number corresponding to that member. And, of course, any two sets with the same relative cardinality would then each have the same absolute cardinality.

Relative cardinality works for all sets; absolute cardinality requires an extension to the natural numbers to be applicable to infinite sets.
Thank you for your detailed post.

The traditional way which provides the values of relative cardinality (which is not restricted to finite amounts), is done by "x in X has exactly one y in Y" definition of function.

The non-traditional way which provides the values of relative cardinality (which is not restricted to finite amounts), is done by "x in X has at most one y in Y" definition of function.

Now please read the rest of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9742045&postcount=3022 , which compares between the traditional and non-traditional definition of function, and their possible results among finite or infinite sets that their members (in this case) are natural numbers.

EDIT:

What is the size, for example, of the set of odd integers? of the set of real numbers between 2 and 3?
By using the traditional definition of function we get well-defined sizes like |N| or |R|.

By using the non-traditional definition of function we realize that what is seen as well-defined sizes like |N| or |R| (by using the traditional definition of function) are not well-defined sizes, or in other words, sets with unbounded amount of members do not have well-defined sizes (well-defined sizes can be found only among sets with bounded amount of members).

|N| > |N| property is a "close relative" of the property of a set with unbounded amount of members to be in 1-to-1 and onto with its proper subset (known also as Dedekind infinite). These properties can't be found among sets with bounded amount of members.

|N| > |N| property of sets with unbounded amount of members can't be deduced by using the traditional definition of function.
 
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This is exactly what I did in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9742045#post9742045

Here it is:

<predicate> means N.
The definition of function is "x in X has at most one y in Y", which enables also functions with input that do not have any output.

The rest of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9742045#post9742045 shows how the new definition of function rigorously provide interesting results, which are derived from the set of all natural numbers (notated as N).

Highlighting mine.

So, you still are in denial about your abysmal language skills?

What *your* highlighted text says is that I can write for example the formula for impulse (which is J = Ft = mv = int(F) dt) as:

N=NN=NN=int(N) dN

Do you see what your horrible skills in language do?

Underscoring also mine.

The underscored part is just as abysmal because you have NOT shown a relation, you have shown a mapping function.

A mapping function, by it's definition, yields a *new* entity.

What you managed to do is wordgarble the following two items together:

mapping:

A -> B

mapping function:

func(A) -> B

These two are nowhere close to being the same thing.
 
[...]

By using the traditional definition of function we get well-defined sizes like |N| or |R|.

By using the non-traditional definition of function we realize that what is seen as well-defined sizes like |N| or |R| (by using the traditional definition of function) are not well-defined sizes, or in other words, sets with unbounded amount of members do not have well-defined sizes (well-defined sizes can be found only among sets with bounded amount of members).

[...]


Here is where the problem really stands out for me. It appears you admit that the "traditional" definitions of 'function' and 'cardinality' are coherent. You clearly admit that using these definitions, the cardinality of infinite sets is well defined.



Then you appear to say that a benefit of expanding 'function' to mean partial function and cardinality to mean (something) is that we can no longer coherently define unique cardinalities for infinite sets.



This raises some questions: How is it a benefit to give up a coherent definition of cardinality that works for a definition of cardinality that does not work? Mathematicians already have the definition of partial function, so how are you proposing any change (other than a notational one) by "expanding" 'function' to mean partial function? Further, even if we adopt your terminology, we could easily recover the traditional definition of function in terms of yours, such as: "a traditional function is a (doron) function such that no member of the domain is mapped to nothing." Something like that, but rigorous. Again, since we can recover the exact things mathematics already has, how is this a change? How does it reveal anything other than the superiority of the traditional definition of cardinality?
 
Welcome BenjaminTR, expect lots of links to previous posts which conveniently hide the rebuttals.
 
Thank you for your detailed post.

The traditional way which provides the values of relative cardinality (which is not restricted to finite amounts), is done by "x in X has exactly one y in Y" definition of function.

The non-traditional way which provides the values of relative cardinality (which is not restricted to finite amounts), is done by "x in X has at most one y in Y" definition of function.

Yes, yes, I know of your obsession with this private meaning of 'function', but I am interested in your private meaning of 'cardinality'. Given two sets, how does one establish a comparative relationship between their cardinalities in Doronetics? I provided you a precise condition in normal mathematics that, when met, established a definite relationship. What have you got?
 
Welcome BenjaminTR.

EDIT:

Here is where the problem really stands out for me. It appears you admit that the "traditional" definitions of 'function' and 'cardinality' are coherent. You clearly admit that using these definitions, the cardinality of infinite sets is well defined.
It is |N| = |N| OR |N| > |N|, where |N| = |N| is provided by both traditional and non-traditional definition of function , and |N| > |N| is provided only by the non-traditional definition of function.

Then you appear to say that a benefit of expanding 'function' to mean partial function and cardinality to mean (something) is that we can no longer coherently define unique cardinalities for infinite sets.

This raises some questions: How is it a benefit to give up a coherent definition of cardinality that works for a definition of cardinality that does not work? Mathematicians already have the definition of partial function, so how are you proposing any change (other than a notational one) by "expanding" 'function' to mean partial function?
The term partial-function is a generalization of "regular" function, such that not every object of the domain have a function with exactly one object of the codomain, so partial-function is not the non-traditional definition, which enables (also) function from something to nothing.

Further, even if we adopt your terminology, we could easily recover the traditional definition of function in terms of yours, such as: "a traditional function is a (doron) function such that no member of the domain is mapped to nothing." Something like that, but rigorous.
Nothing is recovered, you simply use the traditional definition of function (whether it is partial or not) and reject the non-traditional definition, which enables (also) function from something to nothing.

Again, since we can recover the exact things mathematics already has, how is this a change? How does it reveal anything other than the superiority of the traditional definition of cardinality?
On the contrary, the non-traditional definition of function , which enables (also) function from something to nothing, is the more comprehended one because it provides usual traditional results like |N| = |N| OR non-traditional results like |N| > |N|.
 
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What you managed to do is wordgarble the following two items together:

mapping:

A -> B

mapping function:

func(A) -> B

These two are nowhere close to being the same thing.

Let me help here:

"func(A)" is the same as "A ->", where "func()" is the same as "->" and "A" is the input of "func()" or "->".
 
I provided you a precise condition in normal mathematics that, when met, established a definite relationship. What have you got?

EDIT:

In http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9744538&postcount=3030 I provided you a precise condition in non-traditional mathematics that, when met, established a definite relationship among sets with bounded amount of members, or unbounded amount of members, (where one pf the options (only) among sets with unbounded amount of members is, for example, |N| > |N|).

I know of your obsession with this traditional meaning of 'function'. What have you got other than that?
 
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Let me help here:

"func(A)" is the same as "A ->", where "func()" is the same as "->" and "A" is the input of "func()" or "->".

So you have *no* way to unambiguously know what -> actually means *unless* you know the definition of the specific function?

How would you write down a mapping where A -> B and which has for each A a corresponding B? (in your words, *always* an output)

And if you have written down the above, how would one know the distinction between the two?

Face it, when it comes to the difference between mapping and mapping function you have nothing to show :)
 
Highlighting mine.

So, you still are in denial about your abysmal language skills?

What *your* highlighted text says is that I can write for example the formula for impulse (which is J = Ft = mv = int(F) dt) as:

N=NN=NN=int(N) dN

Do you see what your horrible skills in language do?

And of course you conveniently tried to ignore the above...
 
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