Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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The guilter who accused people of supporting Amanda because of her looks got it right. That is how it worked for me! I was quite taken with Amanda and her cause when I saw a photo of her. Check out the photo below. Look at her pretty blue eyes and nice smile. Here she is with two girlfriends after an all-night party.

http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/gallerie/cronaca/arresti-meredith/esterne071523370711152420_big.jpg

It's interesting that the only thing they could find in the Lost and Found box that would fit Amanda was a pair of Chicago White Sox sweats. This raises a lot of questions about Bruce Fischer's involvement in this case.

Also, does Lorena Zugarini moonlight as a UPS driver?
 
It's interesting that the only thing they could find in the Lost and Found box that would fit Amanda was a pair of Chicago White Sox sweats. This raises a lot of questions about Bruce Fischer's involvement in this case.

Also, does Lorena Zugarini moonlight as a UPS driver?

LOL!!
 
It's interesting that the only thing they could find in the Lost and Found box that would fit Amanda was a pair of Chicago White Sox sweats. This raises a lot of questions about Bruce Fischer's involvement in this case.

You are wrong. Bruce is probably a Dodgers fan. Paul Ciolini, the retired Chicago Italian-American police detective who worked for CBS News, is a Chicago White Sox fan.

Seriously, all of the police who worked on this case were dealing with a horrible murder scene and were trying to catch a killer. They were mislead by a few incompetent leaders who called it wrong. The rank and file police should speak up and tell what was really discussed and what really happened in the nighttime interrogation. But they won't. They are stuck in their careers and cannot jeopardize themselves. But at some point in the future one of the police officers involved will talk. It will come out.

I wish a U.S. publisher would offer $4 million for the truth. Then you will see the truth come out. I'd buy that book.
 
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You are wrong. Bruce is probably a Dodgers fan. Paul Ciolini, the retired Chicago Italian-American police detective who worked for CBS News, is a Chicago White Sox fan.<snip>

Fan or foe, a Chicago tie-in is apparent. The plot, she thickens.
 
You are wrong. Bruce is probably a Dodgers fan. Paul Ciolini, the retired Chicago Italian-American police detective who worked for CBS News, is a Chicago White Sox fan.

Seriously, all of the police who worked on this case were dealing with a horrible murder scene and were trying to catch a killer. They were mislead by a few incompetent leaders who called it wrong. The rank and file police should speak up and tell what was really discussed and what really happened in the nighttime interrogation. But they won't. They are stuck in their careers and cannot jeopardize themselves. But at some point in the future one of the police officers involved will talk. It will come out.

I wish a U.S. publisher would offer $4 million for the truth. I'd buy that book.

If Napoleoni would slash tires over a domestic dispute, what do you think she would do if someone was about to rat her out on the botched Kercher investigation?
 
If Napoleoni would slash tires over a domestic dispute, what do you think she would do if someone was about to rat her out on the botched Kercher investigation?

I think a publisher should put out the word that they are paying top Euro for the truth, that the police source can remain anonymous, and that interviews are being done discreetly in nearby Switzerland. Once word gets out that the first police officer is already talking, the "blue wall of silence" will open. In spite of denials, nobody will know for sure who is talking and who isn't and it will become "everyone for himself".

If I were a publisher, I'd be very open about it. I would send a letter to each police officer and the officer's spouse and other adult relatives saying we are paying a large amount for the truth, and that you or a family member or your attorney or press agent may contact our law firm in Switzerland to discuss terms for the interview.
 
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Sorry if anyone has already posted this:

Amanda’s Unending Punishment
by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker
 
. . . Lorena Zugarini . . . ?

I want to be respectful of police officer Zugarini. She, along with other police officers and detectives, was dealing with what must have been one of the worst crimes of her career. Heart-wrenching to see. I'm sure she worked exhausting hours from the time the murder was discovered until the initial suspects were jailed. Unfortunately, her commanders made bad decisions. She may have contributed to that.

I wish she would tell what really happened behind the scenes. Foe example, how did the police plan and implement the nighttime interrogations. She may know if tape recordings were made and what happened to them, or if they were not made was that a deliberate decision.

Her true account of the investigation and the decisions made should interest a publisher, don't you think?
 
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I want to be respectful of police officer Zugarini. She, along with other police officers and detectives, was dealing with what must have been one of the worst crimes of her career. Heart-wrenching to see. I'm sure she worked exhausting hours from the time the murder was discovered until the initial suspects were jailed. Unfortunately, her commandincorrect bad decisions. She may have contributed to that.

I wish she would tell what really happened behind the scenes. Foe example, how did the police plan and implement the nighttime interrogations. She may know if tape recordings were made and what happened to them, or if they were not made was that a deliberate decision. Her account of the investigation and the decisions made should interest a publisher, don't you think?

I do think so. She also can write about other aspects of being a police officer:

Amanda Knox Update: Could an abuse of power investigation into several Italian detectives impact the latest Knox trial?

Prosecutors say murder squad detective Lorena Zugarini oversaw the illegal computer inquiries. Zugarini also worked on the Kercher case and was one of Amanda Knox's interrogators......

In February 2013, a judge suspended Zugarini from the police department for two months because of her misuse of the police computer system. She, Napoleoni and two other murder squad detectives remain under investigation for abuse of power, though a judge has said it is not inconceivable that Zugarini could have "operated on her own initiative" - in other words, went rogue.....

In February 2013, Zugarini, Napoleoni, and two other detectives were transferred out of the murder squad as a result of the Perugia prosecutor's investigation into abuse of power allegations....
 
I was responding to Bill's 5 star rating of Moore's blog post. He seems to be saying that the PGP say the Supertanker paid him, which I don't believe to be the case. He also seems to imply that because he wasn't paid that the PR effort didn't exist and is just a fabrication of the PGP, which isn't the case. There was/is a PR effort and the linked articles go into it.

I have little doubt that a PR effort was made. But what was that PR effort? It would be impossible for Marriott to control the story. At best they could only just offer a different narrative than the one the prosecution put forward.

The truth is that one of those narratives would fail and fall under the facts that were available.

It is pretty clear which one hasn't been holding up to scrutiny.
 
Codyjuneau, Yesterday I received an email from the daughter of deceased Philippine dictator Marcos asking me to help move $19 million. I had to decline because I'm right now in the middle of helping a former Iranian general stash $27 million and a niece of the Burmese dictator move $64 million. There are just so many hours in a day. IM me and I'll forward dictator Marcos's daughter's email address to you. All I ask is a modest advance payment to settle my poker debt and the rest is yours.
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Thanks Strozzi, but it's okay, I don't need any more money. After I wired the advance fee to the Nigerian (arriotMay, wink, wink), he sent me a check for a whole lot of money. All I have to do is deposit the check in my bank account using the ATM, and then wire him some money by Western Union before Thursday to cover his expenses.

I am so excited I don't think I'll be able to sleep allll night! Oops, sorry Machi.:o
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Yes, I know you meant that. I was just pointing out that it goes a lot further than that. There is no reasonable doubt that they are innocent.

Rolfe.

Very much so: it's Beyond Reasonable Doubt (BRD) that Meredith was dead by 10pm, and also BRD that Amanda and Raff were at his flat at that time.

Conversely, there is not even one single item of prosecution evidence that can be described BRD as genuine, and most of them are BRD false. For example, the claimed "murder weapon" could not possibly have been at the scene.

What the case consists of is a mass of implausible speculation - yet it has been kept alive for 6 years.
 
I know. It's a grotesque. It's fascinating in a horrible, this really can't be true, sort of way.

Rolfe.
 
I want to be respectful of police officer Zugarini. She, along with other police officers and detectives, was dealing with what must have been one of the worst crimes of her career. Heart-wrenching to see. I'm sure she worked exhausting hours from the time the murder was discovered until the initial suspects were jailed. Unfortunately, her commanders made bad decisions. She may have contributed to that.

I wish she would tell what really happened behind the scenes. Foe example, how did the police plan and implement the nighttime interrogations. She may know if tape recordings were made and what happened to them, or if they were not made was that a deliberate decision.

Her true account of the investigation and the decisions made should interest a publisher, don't you think?

"Zugarini is best remembered for a 2007 video showing her kicking in a glass door at the Kercher crime scene. "

This was one of those moments when you realize maybe the investigators weren't very good at their job. The rough-shod approach to the crime scene is captured in that video. Its only one example of many sloppy work examples.

She deserves no respect, imo.
Being kind to someone who is actually a criminal, being polite to someone who held a public office of trust, but broke that promise, doesn't deserve anything more than her removal from the squad and demoted. Maybe she should be fired if they knew all the corrupt things shes done through out her career. Maybe this is just one time the crooked cop was busted.

I think a crooked cop is the most vile of all because they are the wolf in sheeps clothing, the pedophile priest type. The good cops should be damaged by these dishonest slugs in uniforms. maybe ?

There has always been a blanket of darkness around this case and especially the polizia of Perugia, and its Time that has allowed the answer to surface, "were they good cops or corrupt cops in Perugia?" It appears they are the latter.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/amanda-...lian-detectives-impact-the-latest-knox-trial/
 
"Zugarini is best remembered for a 2007 video showing her kicking in a glass door at the Kercher crime scene. "

This was one of those moments when you realize maybe the investigators weren't very good at their job. The rough-shod approach to the crime scene is captured in that video. Its only one example of many sloppy work examples.

She deserves no respect, imo.
Being kind to someone who is actually a criminal, being polite to someone who held a public office of trust, but broke that promise, doesn't deserve anything more than her removal from the squad and demoted. Maybe she should be fired if they knew all the corrupt things shes done through out her career. Maybe this is just one time the crooked cop was busted.

I think a crooked cop is the most vile of all because they are the wolf in sheeps clothing, the pedophile priest type. The good cops should be damaged by these dishonest slugs in uniforms. maybe ?

There has always been a blanket of darkness around this case and especially the polizia of Perugia, and its Time that has allowed the answer to surface, "were they good cops or corrupt cops in Perugia?" It appears they are the latter.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/amanda-...lian-detectives-impact-the-latest-knox-trial/

I'd rather approach it differently.

Officer Zugarini, if you can read this, have an attorney contact the defendants' defense counsels to arrange for you to give a voluntary deposition about what you know. You have been used by your commanders who made poor decisions in this case.

Officer Zugarini, please also realize that your truthful account of this entire incident is of interest to publishers. You can negotiate very large compensation for your truthful account. Possibly millions of Euros.

This holds true for other mid-level police officers involved in this case. If you, the reader of this post, are the spouse or relative of such a police officer, urge the officer to disclose what the police commanders and prosecution did to shape this misguided case. It is inevitable that several officers will eventually disclose the truth about what really occurred and the first few to do so can earn substantial sums for their truthful disclosure. Ask your police officer relative to discretely contact defense counsel and/or a publisher.
 
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If I were Machiavelli responding to you, I'd call you a liar for the suggestion. I'd dare you to point out where Massei said this. Strictly speaking, Massei nowhere directly says this. Machiavelli has as his logical exit strategy Massei's legalistic decalration (as below), "therefore, a purely explorative activity, [which] is not permitted at this stage of the proceedings because it is lacking in the requirement for absolute necessity which was, on the contrary, requested." (...)



1 I notice now that in the paragraph above there is a translation mistake. In the statement:

(…) potrebbe fornire un esito del tutto irrilevante anche ad ammettere la natura spermatica delle macchie medesime (…)
the expression “anche ad ammettere” means “even if we admit”. The statement properly translated: “[the test] could yield a completely irrelevant result even if we admit the the spermatic nature of the same stains (…)”.
The statement is an “even if” statement, a concessive secondary statement not a final secondary statement; it does not indicate a purpose (“to admit”) but “despite a condition”.
I have never noticed this translation mistake before.

2 The inference by Bill Williams that Massei reasoning would imply admitting a consensual intercourse between Guede and Meredith on at another time based on this text, is wrong and false.
The question is not a dissection of what is explicit or implicit in Massei’s text, neither it is simply about points of law: what Bill Williams says is simply false in logic. His inference and interpretation is just wrong based on the logical content of the text.

Massei says:

(…)tale indagine, oltre a non rivestire il carattere della assoluta necessità per l'impossibilità di datazione (cfr. su tale aspetto quanto hanno illustrato gli esperti di genetica), potrebbe fornire un esito del tutto irrilevante anche ad ammettere la natura spermatica delle macchie medesime e si presenta, pertanto, come attività meramente esplorativa (…)

The problem with Bill’s reading of Massei – and maybe with a bad writing style of Massei himself - is that Bill’s interpretation looks like as if Massei only provides one reason for its irrelevance, which is the impossibility to date it.
But in fact Massei gives two reasons, independent from each other:

1 the stain could not be dated (which would make it be irrelevant IF it’s Silenzi’s semen).
2 because – besides the first reason - it may be [still] completely irrelevant, even if it is semen [and thus, implicitly, even if it is semen from someone else, not from Silenzi].

TWO reasons, not one. I see that Massei could have expressed them better than that. But I clearly see two, not one.
Bill Williams instead sees a logical link as if #2 was directly depending from #1, thus he thinks that Massei offered only one reason after all, the impossibility to date the stain.
But Bill WIlliams is wrong, and this is a false reading.

The last part of the Massei-Cristiani report is badly written, this paragraph included (and the translation mistake is a symptom of that), however the statement above is structured around the connector “oltre a” ("besides that", "in addition to") and this leaves no doubt that the person writing intends to address two separate reasons, not just one. It's not the repeatition of one reason twice. And these two reasons are independent.
So the fact that the stain is “irrelevant” is a statement to beconsidered something in addition to the fact that it could not be dated.

This means: Massei finds the semen stain may yield a result that is irrelevant, not just insofar it could be from Giacomo Silenzi and because it could not be dated, but also on some further, additional grounds; thus independently from the issue of its dating. So my reading: Massei says the stain may be irrelevant also on independent reason; it may be irrelevant not only in the event that it’s attributed to Silenzi (in that event, the reason would be that it could not be dated) but it would be irrelevant even if it was found to be attributable to Guede or to Sollecito. This for other independent reasons, besides the fact that it can’t be dated.

So Bill Willman's inference it's wrong. It's not that Masseiì's reasoning would imply considering any “consensual” intercourse with Guede on a previous time, it won’t. No, the stain would be irrelevant as pice of evidence even in the event that the stain was related to the crime: the implicit meaning of the word “irrelevant” by Massei here is: it would be meaningless even if it belongs to Guede or Sollecito, because there is already enough evidence to convict Guede (actually, convicted elsewhere and not under trial) as well as enough evidence to convict Sollecito.

The implication of Massei decision is not that there may have been a consensual sex between Guede and Meredith, but instead that there is already enough evidence against both Guede and Sollecito. This is the reason why a test would be only “explorative” and not “absolutely necessary”.
 
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1 I notice now that in the paragraph above there is a translation mistake. In the statement:

(…) potrebbe fornire un esito del tutto irrilevante anche ad ammettere la natura spermatica delle macchie medesime (…)

the expression “anche ad ammettere” means “even if we admit”. The statement properly translated: “[the test] could yield a completely irrelevant result even if we admit the the spermatic nature of the same stains (…)”.
The statement is an “even if” statement, a concessive secondary statement not a final secondary statement; it does not indicate a purpose (“to admit”) but “despite a condition”.
I have never noticed this translation mistake before.

2 The inference by Bill Williams that Massei reasoning would imply admitting a consensual intercourse between Guede and Meredith on at another time based on this text, is wrong and false.
The question is not a dissection of what is explicit or implicit in Massei’s text, neither it is simply about points of law: what Bill Williams says is simply false in logic. His inference and interpretation is just wrong based on the logical content of the text.

Massei says:



The problem with Bill’s reading of Massei – and maybe with a bad writing style of Massei himself - is that Bill’s interpretation looks like as if Massei only provides one reason for its irrelevance, which is the impossibility to date it.
But in fact Massei gives two reasons, independent from each other:

1 the stain could not be dated (which would make it be irrelevant IF it’s Silenzi’s semen).
2 because – besides the first reason - it may be [still] completely irrelevant, even if it is semen [and thus, implicitly, even if it is semen from someone else, not from Silenzi].

TWO reasons, not one. I see that Massei could have expressed them better than that. But I clearly see two, not one.
Bill Williams instead sees a logical link as if #2 was directly depending from #1, thus he thinks that Massei offered only one reason after all, the impossibility to date the stain.
But Bill WIlliams is wrong, and this is a false reading.

The last part of the Massei-Cristiani report is badly written, this paragraph included (and the translation mistake is a symptom of that), however the statement above is structured around the connector “oltre a” ("besides that", "in addition to") and this leaves no doubt that the person writing intends to address two separate reasons, not just one. It's not the repeatition of one reason twice. And these two reasons are independent.
So the fact that the stain is “irrelevant” is a statement to beconsidered something in addition to the fact that it could not be dated.

This means: Massei finds the semen stain may yield a result that is irrelevant, not just insofar it could be from Giacomo Silenzi and because it could not be dated, but also on some further, additional grounds; thus independently from the issue of its dating. So my reading: Massei says the stain may be irrelevant also on independent reason; it may be irrelevant not only in the event that it’s attributed to Silenzi (in that event, the reason would be that it could not be dated) but it would be irrelevant even if it was found to be attributable to Guede or to Sollecito. This for other independent reasons, besides the fact that it can’t be dated.

So Bill Willman's inference it's wrong. It's not that Masseiì's reasoning would imply considering any “consensual” intercourse with Guede on a previous time, it won’t. No, the stain would be irrelevant as pice of evidence even in the event that the stain was related to the crime: the implicit meaning of the word “irrelevant” by Massei here is: it would be meaningless even if it belongs to Guede or Sollecito, because there is already enough evidence to convict Guede (actually, convicted elsewhere and not under trial) as well as enough evidence to convict Sollecito.

The implication of Massei decision is not that there may have been a consensual sex between Guede and Meredith, but instead that there is already enough evidence against both Guede and Sollecito. This is the reason why a test would be only “explorative” and not “absolutely necessary”.

Your people must feel this is an important point to refute.... especially if you spent this much time composing completely unintelligible dieterology to "refute".

Central to your dietrology is claiming my logic is wrong, while at the same time blaming Massei for his bad writing.

I also agree with you. Massei did not feel testing was necessary for the additional reason that Massei (wrongly) felt there was already enough evidence.

The REAL issue, though, is that we are now in 2014, and in 2013 the RIS Carabinieri gave a report to the Nencini court which pretty much debunks ALL of Stefanoni's work. Although not directly mentioned, the bra-clasp Y-Haplotype belonging to Raffaele is pretty much forensically useless.

It still does not address the fact that Massei erred grievously - the three possibilities are not just Guede, Sollecito or Meredith's boyfirend. Please note that there is the allegation out there of "multiple attackers", and AK and RS have pretty much been ruled out. And also please note, that when the semen stain was first found, Lumumba was in the picture, not Guede..... something Massei leaves completely unaddressed.

It boggles the mind that that stain would remain untested for ANY reason. Nice try, Mach.

Please try to stay in 2014, Machiavelli. But, and this is the important part - welcome back! It's just not the same here without your dietrology.
 
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Officer Zugarini, please also realize that your truthful account of this entire incident is of interest to publishers. You can negotiate very large compensation for your truthful account. Possibly millions of Euros.


You can't trust a bloody word of anything someone is paid millions of Euros to "reveal".

Rolfe.
 
I actually got into an argument over it with two guilters. I actually think she is pretty average and they were trying to tell me I was wrong and that she was smoking. I guess on that basis, the ones who think she is hot are those that think she is guilty.

I agree. The PGP meme is that most all supporters of Amanda and Raf are dirty old men that want to have sex with her. It does seem as if they are projecting their own feelings onto those that aren't PG.

I think both of the girls were pretty average across the board.
 
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