Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[JREF2010]

..... or resorting to strawman arguments.

Both The Machine and Jackie are making strawman arguments about groupies and the necessity of motive.... as well as a comprehensive timeline for the crime.

For the record - they are correct, motive and timeline are not necessary to procure conviction.

Why then do prosecutors go through them by the sack full, never once making the argument TM and Jackie make?

Why is it that the ISC in part quashed the acquittals, saying that sex-game-gone-wrong went unexamined? Note - ISC did not make the argument those two are making.

Why did Crini, instead of taking legal advice from Jackie, venture into a completely unheard of motive? Crini turned his back on the ISC on this one, and offered up pooh in the toilet!!!!

Can guiters/haters do something other than erect strawmen? I thought not.

Thats one bizarre twist of this case is the prosecution and judges, and most guilters, all having conflicting, contradicting accusations.

There hasnt been any consistency at all in the timeline, or the evidence, and as you stated the motive has been grossly created from fiction.

Ive never seen anything like this with each prosecutor showing up with a different charge almost. How does the defense prepare for anything, when the prosecution changes their case each trial?

Then I wonder about the new Florence jurors, they hear this new possible maybe fictional idea of Crini and have to choose if they like maybe Masseis possible could-have happened theory, or do they reach back to Michelis contradicting theory, or how about the Florence jury decides on Hellman's theory that "only those three know, no one else knows" or maybe Commodes "the motive is there is no motive!" blahblahblah...

Lets convict on some game show like court case called Lets Make Up a Theory!

 

[Grinder]

.
I agree Rose.

It is however a fascinating example of what happens when someone, with some degree of credibility, makes an accusation without providing proof. The speculation spreads and snowballs, which ironically is also what happened to Amanda and Raffaele, in spades!
.

This has been one of my biggest issues about this case on both sides. We have people here making one contention after another that just aren't true or verifiable by a credible source. On true crime novelist writes something and it becomes gospel.

On the other side it is ridiculous and obviously more egregious if one believes a false conviction is worse than a person getting off.

One thing we don't know is if there is "inside" information that either or both sides have. If Bremner's school was contacted he should be able to get the names of those doing it. They have no legal protection and should be outed.

If nothing else I'd like to know that these people are using phony names and emails when contacting employers and journalists. It would be great if a journalist has been keeping all correspondence and would publish.

 

[acbytesla]

acbytesla, I didn't mean it was damaging to the case, either. I meant it is not damaging to John Kercher, Jr.

For him to establish that his reputation had been damaged, I think he would have to show that enough people had read the accusations and that the accusations made him look bad in a public sense. But the blog in question is not being read by very many people and is not of interest to anyone outside the case. It's one thing if you're George Clooney and the New York Times slanders you, it's another if you're John Kercher, Jr. and the blog that slanders you is kind of a kooky nothing, like so many other kooky nothings all over the internet.

All of the guilter blogs have said stuff a thousand times worse than that about Amanda, Raffaele and their families, and I don't think they are going to go to the trouble of suing them for it. And, as I said above, it is likely the Kerchers and HR are allies.

I agree Mary. This is just a blip. It's not going to result in libel suit.

I just don't like to see anyone too close to the case to say anything negative about the Kerchers. Not that I'm not sure they deserve it. While it is a horrible thing to have your daughter murdered, I don't think it provides them with a free pass to say horrible things about Amanda that are not true.

The thing I hate about the Kerchers is their involvement with the tabloids and the British press. Given what John Kercher Sr had done for a living, you know he is an expert at media manipulation. And who knows how much his son has learned from his father.

I have hoped for while to see HarryRag exposed. But I want to see some evidence as to who he he is.

 

[AmyStrange]

He/ She

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I agree Mary. This is just a blip. It's not going to result in libel suit.

I just don't like to see anyone too close to the case to say anything negative about the Kerchers. Not that I'm not sure they deserve it. While it is a horrible thing to have your daughter murdered, I don't think it provides them with a free pass to say horrible things about Amanda that are not true.

The think I hate about the Kerchers is there involvement with the tabloids and the British press. Given what John Kercher Sr had done for a living, you know he is an expert at media manipulation. And who knows how much his son has learned from his father.

I have hoped for while to see HarryRag exposed. But I want to see some evidence as to who he is.

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Assuming it's a HE of course. It might just as well be a female. THIS CASE IS THAT CRAZY!!!

(I removed the double "he" in the quote above),

d

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[Bill Williams]

Once again, Steve Moore hits one out of the park, this time about the need for guilters/haters to invent the myth of the PR Supertanker.

http://gmancasefile.com/1/post/2014/01/-the-importance-of-supertankers.html

Of course, I am paid to pass on links like this.... paid in cash so as to be untraceable!

So why is it so crucial that I, and people like me are branded as paid shills? Why is it so essential that people who disagree with our conclusions must convince themselves that we are part of a high-speed, well-oiled, mercenary Death Star?

Simply because if we’re not paid hypocrites, then the truth is that there are experts in science, forensics and investigations who have absolutely no reason to side with the (wrongly) accused—yet have. It means that people with authoritative knowledge on criminal cases and DNA who did not previously know the (wrongly) accused or their families, looked at the case carefully, were convinced by the evidence and believe in the innocence of Raffaele and Amanda strongly enough to spend their own time and money to see them exonerated.

It strikes at the heart of their confidence in their own understanding.

 

[moije2]

This has been one of my biggest issues about this case on both sides. We have people here making one contention after another that just aren't true or verifiable by a credible source. On true crime novelist writes something and it becomes gospel.

On the other side it is ridiculous and obviously more egregious if one believes a false conviction is worse than a person getting off.

One thing we don't know is if there is "inside" information that either or both sides have. If Bremner's school was contacted he should be able to get the names of those doing it. They have no legal protection and should be outed.

If nothing else I'd like to know that these people are using phony names and emails when contacting employers and journalists. It would be great if a journalist has been keeping all correspondence and would publish.

Interesting isn't it?

While I have not seen a movement afoot to accept this finger pointing as gospel. I have seen a lot of incredulity. Maybe in the PIP's collective bleeding heart they find it hard to accept such an accusation of involvement by the dignified Kerchers. Although has been pointed out before their silence has been predictably broken by very pointed and carefully timed releases of thinly veiled accusations against AK and RS, while I don't recall reading any quotes about their disdain for Rudy Guede. So we have we have the family of one of the most remembered (non-celebrity) victims in recent memory on coordinated attack with their attorney and spokesperson Maresca against two innocents, claiming that she has been forgotten. And someone out there is waging a prolific internet campaign of false information (I like to call them half truths stitched together to serve their purposes).

So we have an accusation by a relative public figure stating that John Kercher Jr is Harry Rag/The Machine. There is certainly immense interest in who some of these people are that hide behind anonymous internet names. Harry Rag is certainly on the short list with a few other prominent posters. In my case, I don't think that it is JK Jr. at least individually. I would not be surprised at all if it is a collective effort by family members and other recruits by them. Of course I don't know, but when I reflect on this I can make the assumption that the person(s) is either very close to the family or if not, then some whacko who has taken up a perceived cause. I lean to the former. I will be interested to learn their identity if verified adequately. The drama continues and we all here benefit in terms of enjoying an on line true crime story and thus owe some dues IMHO. In many ways the players in this on line case have become more interesting than the crime itself. Or some might argue they have taken on criminal character themselves!

Another thought for me, and I have not completely thought this through, is that Bremner is raising the stakes here. If he has knowledge, I would venture a guess that it will eventually come out. On the other hand, if not, he is playing a bluffing game that has the potential to smoke out some of the players. He can put the Kerchers in the position of denying (or not) the accusation and then woe be it if they are caught in a minor little prevarication. I would expect some carefully chosen weasel words. All designed to deflect anything substantive until after the resolution of this case. And if they (the Kerchers) have nothing to do with this at all there could be negative backlash against him. But that can only come to pass if the real HR is identified. Start of new drama...

 

[Grinder]

Once again, Steve Moore hits one out of the park, this time about the need for guilters/haters to invent the myth of the PR Supertanker.

http://gmancasefile.com/1/post/2014/01/-the-importance-of-supertankers.html

Of course, I am paid to pass on links like this.... paid in cash so as to be untraceable!

Bill the supertanker myth is much more focused on the media and commenters rather than experts. The PGP doesn't think Moore is paid. They think he is a yahoo and is using the case for his own PR. They assume paid experts in trial just lie for the defense and it isn't unheard of.

The PGP use the supertanker as a rational as to why the media, particularly in the US reports as they do. During the Massei trial they were fond of Barbie's tale that Marriott's emails would be passed around by reporters for laughs.

Knox hired Marriott there is no doubt. How much their services were "worth" is unknown. Was Marriott paid money? We don't know.

The friends back home intent on telling the 'real Amanda Knox' story


Seattle PR firm reveals efforts to free Amanda Knox

 

[yimyammer]

That story linked to this story (OCT 2013):

Amanda Knox: Inside the mind of a former Foxy Knoxy supporter
http://www.zimbio.com/Amanda+Knox/articles/uqnJAkV1Kl3/Amanda+Knox+Inside+mind+former+Foxy+Knoxy

Here is the really bizarre part of the above story, which in my mind proves the "former" supporter was NEVER a "former" supporter and also a dumb^ss idiot to boot:

"DNO: How about the fact Kercher’s DNA hasn’t yet been determined to have been on the knife?

"Interviewee: You know, that’s a little strange. However, regardless of that fact itself — the DNA test places Knox in possession of that murder weapon. Therefore, she has questions to now answer."

d

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Damn that guy!

Due to his brilliant revelation, I have been forced to ignore Amanda's attractiveness & therefore my entire case for her innocence has vanished.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill the supertanker myth is much more focused on the media and commenters rather than experts. The PGP doesn't think Moore is paid. They think he is a yahoo and is using the case for his own PR. They assume paid experts in trial just lie for the defense and it isn't unheard of.

The PGP use the supertanker as a rational as to why the media, particularly in the US reports as they do. During the Massei trial they were fond of Barbie's tale that Marriott's emails would be passed around by reporters for laughs.

Knox hired Marriott there is no doubt. How much their services were "worth" is unknown. Was Marriott paid money? We don't know.

The friends back home intent on telling the 'real Amanda Knox' story


Seattle PR firm reveals efforts to free Amanda Knox

Everyone's mileage varies, it seems. I'm not sure the guilters\haters are a giant monolith of one opinion.

But thanks for passing on some true-crime reports.

 

[acbytesla]

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Assuming it's a HE of course. It might just as well be a female. THIS CASE IS THAT CRAZY!!!

(I removed the double "he" in the quote above),

d

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Of course it could be a female. I mean Peggy is pretty outspoken. But since he goes by the name "Harry" I thought it was safe to assume for literary purposes a male persona.

But we all know that given the anonymous nature of the Internet, the name means little.

 

[Grinder]

Everyone's mileage varies, it seems. I'm not sure the guilters\haters are a giant monolith of one opinion.

But thanks for passing on some true-crime reports.

Sorry but these are written by journalists and were available for contemporaneous replies. You don't believe Marriott?

The PGP may not be a super monolith but they have been pretty consistent on the PR efforts relating to media manipulation. They questioned whether Hampikian was funded by 'tax-payer' money but I don't recall them saying that Moore was paid, certainly not their main issue with him.

You probably don't remember when they accused Marriott of controlling US reporting because of his CBS connections, but it turned out his connection was being a local reporter.

 

[Grinder]

Of course it could be a female. I mean Peggy is pretty outspoken. But since he goes by the name "Harry" I thought it was safe to assume for literary purposes a male persona.

But we all know that given the anonymous nature of the Internet, the name means little.

Since morphing into The Machine, it is clear that 'it' is the proper address.

 

[AmyStrange]

Absolutely AC by TESLA

Of course it could be a female. I mean Peggy is pretty outspoken. But since he goes by the name "Harry" I thought it was safe to assume for literary purposes a male persona.

But we all know that given the anonymous nature of the Internet, the name means little.

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I gotcha. I find myself doing it also. For all we know, it could be "DOCTOR" Steffie,

d

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[acbytesla]

Bill the supertanker myth is much more focused on the media and commenters rather than experts. The PGP doesn't think Moore is paid. They think he is a yahoo and is using the case for his own PR. They assume paid experts in trial just lie for the defense and it isn't unheard of.

The PGP use the supertanker as a rational as to why the media, particularly in the US reports as they do. During the Massei trial they were fond of Barbie's tale that Marriott's emails would be passed around by reporters for laughs.

Knox hired Marriott there is no doubt. How much their services were "worth" is unknown. Was Marriott paid money? We don't know.

I'm not really sure whether Marriott was paid is all that relevant. The PGP may be convinced that Marriott has fooled the US Press, but the reality is that it doesn't work that way. Marriott may have been instrumental in helping to get the press to actually keep an open mind, but Mariott is not going to be able to change the evidence or the lact of it. If there was significant evidence against Amanda, all the PR in the world is not going to be able to reverse that view.

I think it is notable that even the British Press has changed it's tune pretty significantly than what we saw out of them 6 years ago.

 

[AmyStrange]

DAMN Yim

Damn that guy!

Due to his brilliant revelation, I have been forced to ignore Amanda's attractiveness & therefore my entire case for her innocence has vanished.

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and double ha ha.

It does kind of tie in with the sex orgy gone wrong theory that had Amanda directing the whole thing from outside the room.

When the story first broke in Seattle, the film at eleven always made her eyes look very strange and kind of evil.

So for me, it wasn't her looks, but the lack of evidence and the bizarre way the PLE came out after her confession and said she finally told us what we already knew, and then all the evidence came in about Rudy and the way they backpedaled on her confession and said that it proved she was a liar!!!

That was my WTF moment.

I'm not a big fan of LE to begin with, so maybe that's what really made it easier to turn the boat around for me more than her looks,

d

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[Bill Williams]

Sorry but these are written by journalists and were available for contemporaneous replies. You don't believe Marriott?

The PGP may not be a super monolith but they have been pretty consistent on the PR efforts relating to media manipulation. They questioned whether Hampikian was funded by 'tax-payer' money but I don't recall them saying that Moore was paid, certainly not their main issue with him.

You probably don't remember when they accused Marriott of controlling US reporting because of his CBS connections, but it turned out his connection was being a local reporter.

So let's get this straight. When they write for a newspaper they are journalists.

But if they write a book they are true crime authors.....

Oooooooooooooooook...........

 

[Grinder]

I'm not really sure whether Marriott was paid is all that relevant. The PGP may be convinced that Marriott has fooled the US Press, but the reality is that it doesn't work that way. Marriott may have been instrumental in helping to get the press to actually keep an open mind, but Mariott is not going to be able to change the evidence or the lact of it. If there was significant evidence against Amanda, all the PR in the world is not going to be able to reverse that view.

I think it is notable that even the British Press has changed it's tune pretty significantly than what we saw out of them 6 years ago.

I was responding to Bill's 5 star rating of Moore's blog post. He seems to be saying that the PGP say the Supertanker paid him, which I don't believe to be the case. He also seems to imply that because he wasn't paid that the PR effort didn't exist and is just a fabrication of the PGP, which isn't the case. There was/is a PR effort and the linked articles go into it.

 

[Grinder]

So let's get this straight. When they write for a newspaper they are journalists.

But if they write a book they are true crime authors.....

Oooooooooooooooook...........

Bill when an article is written and published they are open to contemporaneous criticism, which isn't the case with books in the same way. The style of a true crime novel is to base the book on a crime but with literary license to fill in missing parts with fiction.

The second article is an interview with Marriott, which if a misrepresentation, would allow him to protest.

The fabrication of the PLE's conversations by Follain don't allow for the same fact checking. I guess they could write about misrepresentations in Amazon reviews.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill when an article is written and published they are open to contemporaneous criticism, which isn't the case with books in the same way. The style of a true crime novel is to base the book on a crime but with literary license to fill in missing parts with fiction.

The second article is an interview with Marriott, which if a misrepresentation, would allow him to protest.

The fabrication of the PLE's conversations by Follain don't allow for the same fact checking. I guess they could write about misrepresentations in Amazon reviews.

Oooooooooooooooook. ...........

 

[Bill Williams]

I was responding to Bill's 5 star rating of Moore's blog post. He seems to be saying that the PGP say the Supertanker paid him, which I don't believe to be the case. He also seems to imply that because he wasn't paid that the PR effort didn't exist and is just a fabrication of the PGP, which isn't the case. There was/is a PR effort and the linked articles go into it.

I think your spin on all this is quite the PR effort.... just saying.