Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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You completely missed my point, which was to demonstrate exactly what you are saying: Weather != climate, and unseasonable cold in one place is offset by unseasonable warmth in another. That's why I made the quip about not knowing what "global" meant in the end of the post from which you drew out a snippet.
Ah. Then I misunderstood your sarcasm for seriousness. My apologies.

And how could this possibly be your problem with AGW?
Because far too many people do say it seriously. Like the ambassador to the UN from the Philippines, sobbing about how American intransigence sent a hurricane into his country. It discredits the position.

Now, it's true that you have to be very careful about letting your attitudes towards the visible, idiotic fringe (Al Gore) color your attitudes towards the entire group of those who share the basic position (actual scientists). I fully admit that in the case of AGW I failed to do so, which is why I'm reassessing.

By reading the science, of course.
I'm afraid I use up the science-reading portion of my free time to fight anti-vaxxers. AGW took a back seat, which is why it took me five years to discover that the perennial "Arctic ice is rebounding!" claim made by right-wingers evaporates when you look at a long-term graph, which was the proximate trigger of said reassessing.
 
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Meanwhile, in Sweden, the few Swedish denialists (all kooks, mainly internet based) are having a rough time with an extremely warm winter, with December temperatures up to 8 degrees above normal.

The World Junior Hockey Championship (the biggest international hockey tournament outside the Olympics) was held in Sweden this year. In the frequent outside shots there is no snow no ice and people only wearing light fall jackets.
 
There have been satellites directly observing the suns energy output since the 1970’s. They show a slight decrease in energy output.
Now there is the kind of thing that should be simple to just show. Show the data.

If there is a direct measurement of the total output of the sun, show it. That is the sort of thing that puts an end to arguments that the sun is currently the main factor.

Sunspots don't tell the whole story.
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/sidc-s...20/every:12/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1919.9/every:3
every:3
 
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There is a misunderstanding. I was speaking clearly about the lack of evidence for an observed rise in water vapor, based on rising CO2 levels, a key feature of AGW theory. Which is what the following is discussing. AGW theory A scientific source would explain the theory at this point, and then show how evidence supports the theory. Instead we get an ill conceived and poorly executed mish mash, not science. And yet not a single bit of evidence, much less explaining the "human fingerprint", which we know means CO2.http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/human-caused/
I do believe this,
"Science has simply not found the cause that can account for the amount of current increased radiative forcing and associated warming"

There is simply no cause we know of to explain the warming we have observed and measured. It isn't CO2 forcing alone, because the warming we have observed does NOT MATCH THE THEORY of what we should be seeing. The key things that CO2 forcing theory predicts have not been observed, no matter how you try to say they have.

That is the evidence you can't find. The CO2 fingerprints are what is missing, that is the evidence I am saying can't be found, nor has it been presented in this thread so far.

That is a very interesting point, and quite different than the issue of evidence for AGW theory. But, and this is massively interesting, what you pointed out is also evidence that it isn't CO2 forced warming we are observing.

Which is why it's so important to understand the theory of global warming, or the theory of AGW, or the theories of anthropagenic global warming, as well as climate theory in general. Until it is understood what those mean, the rest is hardly scientific.
That still makes me chuckle. Every time.

what a load of total BS......

the evidence has been provided a long time ago, many different posters here have linked to it......

so your claims are blatant lies. you are propably not even fooling yourself with this BS.
 
Now there is the kind of thing that should be simple to just show. Show the data.

If there is a direct measurement of the total output of the sun, show it. That is the sort of thing that puts an end to arguments that the sun is currently the main factor.

Sunspots don't tell the whole story.
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/sidc-s...20/every:12/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1919.9/every:3
[qimg]http://woodfortrees.org/graph/sidc-ssn/from:1920.1/every:48/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1920/every:12/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1919.9/every:3[/qimg]

why are you talking about TSI when you do not know anything about it?
a few posts ago you falsely claimed we do not directly measure TSI....
wich just showed your extreme ignorance on this topic.
 
Yeru
It's the same thing with hurricanes. We have a year in which hurricane strength and numbers is at decades-old lows, and weather != climate. But one big hurricane happens to hit a major city, and all of a sudden "It's all because of global warming!" Hurricane Sandy was the worst example of this, because those who attributed it to AGW seem to have completely forgotten that this is not the first time a hurricane hit New York, nor was it the strongest to do so.

Before I answer the first part let me deal with this.

Hurricanes and typhoons are not just driven by the level of ocean heat but also by wind patterns and moisture content.
Also a hurricane is measured not just by wind velocity but by size and rain intensity.

They are complex beasts but additional ocean surface heat will move a cat 4 to a cat 5 etc.
So there may not be more storms, but there may be more of the more intense types.....and that includes rain intensity.

The most obvious influence on Sandy was not the hurricane itself - New York has had hurricanes before but that the blocking high....related to what is happening with the jetstream currently, steered Sandy inland instead of the normal track out to sea.
In addition the warmer ocean surface kept Sandy growing larger, longer.

All these add up to increased risk for coastal cities and when you add in sea level rise that has sped up in the last decades then if you take the long view as insurance companies must - then you have costly long term risk. No one event is attributable, more frequent or more frequent intense events are a mark of more energy and more moisture in the atmosphere.
So climate drives regional weather.

This extreme cold snap is weather but it is influenced by a warmer Arctic destabilizing the weather patterns.
http://www.noaa.gov/features/02_monitoring/warmarctic.html

This was an occasional phenomena and now has increased in frequency.

When looking a cold snap like this....it's not a trend....it's weather.
WHen looking at entire year of record warmth as Australia has just undergone....then you have a much longer baseline to look at...and they have good records back to 1890s.

One year can be an anomaly as 1998 was....El Nno year ....but when you start stringing along decades of increases including highest temps, highest night time temps ( very significant ) changes in migration times, blooming times, species ranges.....there is an endless list of evidence

and combine that with the rather simple atmospheric physics underlying AGW and the incontrovertible fact that we have boosted C02 from 280 ppm to over 400....the change of theory and evidence is overwhelming.

Now you add in the likes of Exxon head acknowledging climate risk and you should be able to easily get by any doubts about the reality of AGW.

What is really hard to discern is the best path to deal with it, how fast will be the onset, and what will it mean for any given region.

Observation is building up a picture and one prediction was more extreme weather driven by a less stable and warmer atmosphere .....and sure enough that is what we are seeing.

To reassure yourself on the underlying science just follow the links in my signature.
Ask questions here as well and read the science for yourself.

Once past that comfort level then join in looking at the consequences that are in progress and the larger consequences of BAU.
 
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Meanwhile you (and everyone else) still avoid the clear and easy to follow science (with evidence) that I presented to explain my position.

People have looked at some of the links and found they didn’t support your assertions. Furthermore you can’t even tell us what arguments are supposed to be advanced by the links provided, so it’s pretty clear you haven’t even read them yourself.

It’s pretty obvious you are not even looking at the links, just pointing as much spam as you can in order to complain people won’t read it all no matter how painless and irrelevant to the discussion they are.
 
What theories? Just like in this topic, the paper doesn't define what it is talking about. No, it means I can't find any evidence. Just like we see in this topic. If there is evidence showing the increase in global water vapor, as well as increasing temperatures, then post it. Or a link to it. So far I seem to be the only one posting any definition and explaining what AGW means. Quite a few people actually denied there even was a "theory of AGW" when I brought it up! So far, nobody has responded to that strange little exchange. Including you.


[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Solar_Activity_Proxies.png/300px-Solar_Activity_Proxies.png[/qimg]

If .5 W/m2 is supposed to be the amount CO2 is currently increasing the energy of the planet, a variation of 1.3 W/m2 would cause a clear change in the earth's energy balance. But we don't see that.

Then there is the fact that we don't actually have a direct measurement of the sun's change in total energy reaching us each moment. Much less a long term record of the same.

It's one reason the solar issue is so jumbled.

your fact is not a fact but a blatant lie......

http://www.pmodwrc.ch/pmod.php?topic=tsi/virgo/proj_space_virgo#VIRGO_Radiometry
 
Because far too many people do say it seriously. Like the ambassador to the UN from the Philippines, sobbing about how American intransigence sent a hurricane into his country. It discredits the position.

Yeru - the headache is ....there is a nugget of truth in the matter....while America and th rest of the planet did not "send" the cyclone....AGW may well have increased it from a cat 4 to a cat 5.

More frequent weather extremes ARE a product of a warming planet.

Is it warming? yes clearly tho the atmosphere a bit less so than the ocean these days.

No "pause " here

heat_content2000m.png


and you can see how much the ocean dominates the atmosphere and essentially drives the whole atmospheric process as the C02 trapping is not from incoming solar directly but trapping outgoing IR....which is why night time warmth records are so significant.

Total_Heat_Content_1024.jpg


•••

Keep up the anti-vax battle...it's critical.
 
People have looked at some of the links and found they didn’t support your assertions.
More lies.

The "assertions" are actually from the links, not the other way around. Just as the commentary about how some people here denied there was a "Theory of Global Warming", (Or AGW theory, theory of AGW,)

There is no such thing as a Theory of Global Warming, the expectation that there would be indicates a profound misunderstanding of the nature of climate science.

That's why the complete avoidance of discussing it is so funny. You can't very well say it isn't true, I post the links to right where it was clearly stated.
There is no such thing as the "Theory of Global Warming" as you have actually found out!

Yet over and over again the regulars, who simply never stop posting, are quiet about it.
That is what was disproved here, the media hysteria, not the theory of global warming.

All the goings on about it all, yet the basic theory, and how we know it is true, are ignored.

Is global warming the figment of some scientists' imaginations? How can we reconcile the global warming theory with the reality of what we find when we step outdoors?
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2004january/
 
Hurricanes and typhoons are not just driven by the level of ocean heat but also by wind patterns and moisture content.
Also a hurricane is measured not just by wind velocity but by size and rain intensity.

They are complex beasts but additional ocean surface heat will move a cat 4 to a cat 5 etc.
So there may not be more storms, but there may be more of the more intense types.....and that includes rain intensity.
I know all this. I was given to understand, though, that most of it is still theory - they've seen a little strengthening in average hurricane intensity but not necessarily enough to prove it. Is that not the case? (I would not be surprised if I were wrong - I believed Arctic ice was rebounding for years. It's amazing what you think you believe strongly but in fact learned merely from osmosis.)

The most obvious influence on Sandy was not the hurricane itself - New York has had hurricanes before but that the blocking high....related to what is happening with the jetstream currently, steered Sandy inland instead of the normal track out to sea.
In addition the warmer ocean surface kept Sandy growing larger, longer.
Wouldn't that have necessarily had to be the case for the previous hurricanes that hit New York, though?

This extreme cold snap is weather but it is influenced by a warmer Arctic destabilizing the weather patterns.
http://www.noaa.gov/features/02_monitoring/warmarctic.html

This was an occasional phenomena and now has increased in frequency.
Since I don't live in America, how often has it happened recently? I thought this was a once-in-a-lifetime sort of event.

To reassure yourself on the underlying science just follow the links in my signature.
Ask questions here as well and read the science for yourself.
Time is a very limiting factor in my life. Do you have one link you suggest above the others?

I should note that I have a strong science background (I went to Columbia engineering school, and edited my wife's master thesis in micro biology). If somebody exaggerates their predictions for political effect, or provides contradictory information, I'll likely notice. Such exaggerations are why I stopped believing in AGW to begin with, after all. So I prefer a site that concentrates on science rather than advocacy; otherwise, if I see a ridiculous, overblown claim made for rhetorical effect, I risk once again attributing said ridiculousness to the entirety of AGW theory and discounting it. And I don't want to do that unless it actually deserves it.
 
Ah. Then I misunderstood your sarcasm for seriousness. My apologies.

No worries. I could have used an emoticon.

Because far too many people do say it seriously. Like the ambassador to the UN from the Philippines, sobbing about how American intransigence sent a hurricane into his country. It discredits the position.

Now, it's true that you have to be very careful about letting your attitudes towards the visible, idiotic fringe (Al Gore) color your attitudes towards the entire group of those who share the basic position (actual scientists). I fully admit that in the case of AGW I failed to do so.

I'm not sure I would count Al Gore as the idiotic fringe. He got it mostly right in his film, although as far as I know, he presented the worst case scenario in many instances. He has become somewhat of a windmill for the denialist movement though, which is an excellent demonstration of the fact that they have no science arguments.

I'm afraid I use up the science-reading portion of my free time to fight anti-vaxxers. AGW took a back seat, which is why it took me five years to discover that the perennial "Arctic ice is rebounding!" claim made by right-wingers evaporates when you look at a long-term graph.

That's when you trust the consensus. If you do not have time, cannot be bothered, or do not have the necessary eucation to read and understand the science, the fact that almost all of the scientists in the relevant field agree upon the basic facts of AGW is overwhelming reason to accept it.
 
But the legitimacy of the position is undercut every time unseasonably (or even seasonably) warm weather brings out the exact opposite! You get the global warming crowd saying "See? See? It's warmer than usual in Country X! Global warming!" Which of course just allows the anti-science crowd to ridicule them with "I thought weather != climate?"

Sweden was brought up specifically to show that the current cold snap in North America is not a reflection of global temperatures. It’s perfectly acceptable to use it in this way.

If you look back though this topic I think you will have a hard time finding examples of people pointing to a warm weather event as evidence for global warming. You may find some discussion of events like the Russian heat wave of a few years ago that has been calculated to be a 1 in 1000 year event in the absence of global warming but a 1 in 50 year event with. In terms of attribution this is pretty good evidence that this particular event is in fact related to AGW.

In cases where no such evidence is present I think you will find the people defending the science suggesting AGW are in fact the same people doing the reminding that weather isn’t climate EVEN FOR WARM EVENTS.

It's the same thing with hurricanes. We have a year in which hurricane strength and numbers is at decades-old lows, and weather != climate. But one big hurricane happens to hit a major city, and all of a sudden "It's all because of global warming!"

Since the best evidence suggests global warming will not increase hurricane frequency, this seems doubtful.

WRT to hurricanes the issue is that the largest are expected to become more powerful so much like the Russian heat wave example there will be some cases where a hurricane is improbably large to occur without a contribution from climate change.
Hurricane Sandy was the worst example of this, because those who attributed it to AGW seem to have completely forgotten that this is not the first time a hurricane hit New York, nor was it the strongest to do so.

Bad example. Sandy hitting New York was the direct result of something called a blocking event. While blocking events do occur naturally, they are rare, rare enough that probability one occurring at the same time as a hurricane is near zero. Blocking events are expected to be, and have been observed to be much more common, as has the severe weather they can bring.

IOW there is actually credible scientific evidence that Sandy probably was caused by global warming. While it’s not possible to say absolutely that a specific weather event was caused by global warming, this is only true in the same sense that it it’s possible to prove a specific cases of Lung Cancer was caused by smoking.
 
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Do you have any evidence for this claim?

Sure, SC24 is much weaker than predicted and SC25 is forecast to be weaker still.

The new solar minimum has been named The Landscheidt Minimum and as it has in previous minimums earth's climate is expected to fall into another LIA like it did in the Maunder Minimum.

Well that explains "the pause" and it does seem they have it right ...
sunssbam1620to2180gs.jpg

powerwave3.png

http://www.landscheidt.info/
 
More frequent weather extremes ARE a product of a warming planet.
You know what would be really useful for something like this? A chart giving the global percentage of high/low temperature readings that are records, organized by year. If it increases over time (or even if it remains relatively stable, since the length of the historical record and therefore the number and range of old readings against which you are comparing them are also increasing), that would go a long way towards proving an increase in extreme weather events. Otherwise you simply have too much of a recency effect.

No "pause " here
The "pause" argument always seemed ridiculous to me, even while I was against AGW. It's clear if you look at the graph that the pause has lasted for less than ten years, not fifteen. As we say in Hebrew, זה לא חכמה if you take the highest average temperature of the previous thirty years and declare the pause to have started then! And historical data shows periodic pauses too, such as in the 40s-60s I believe (though I may be misremembering), after which warming resumed.

Keep up the anti-vax battle...it's critical.

You mean the pro-vax battle, right? ;)
 
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