Is Amway A Scam?

[C1REX]

I don't know US market much so can't comment on that.

Amway UK seems to have very good reputation. Can't tell about the company profitability but prices are very competitive. Saving money is one of selling points here.

There are meetings in UK as well but all for free. Some of them of very high value that can be used in any business (time management for example).
All official business tools are available for free to download.


I've done lots of research before joining as there is a lot of bad opinions on the Net.
However, I can't see how people can lose money here in UK.
Even buying products can help to save money.

I really like the business opportunity. It's fun here. I love the part about constant self development. All this for free

 

[Meed]

If you compare to a classic business where most people lose a fortune and very few make good money, then Amway is not a bad way to learn.

I guess the prospect of starting any business must be a scam.

 

[Joecool]

I don't know US market much so can't comment on that.

Amway UK seems to have very good reputation. Can't tell about the company profitability but prices are very competitive. Saving money is one of selling points here.

There are meetings in UK as well but all for free. Some of them of very high value that can be used in any business (time management for example).
All official business tools are available for free to download.


I've done lots of research before joining as there is a lot of bad opinions on the Net.
However, I can't see how people can lose money here in UK.
Even buying products can help to save money.

I really like the business opportunity. It's fun here. I love the part about constant self development. All this for free

The Amway scam is alive in the US and Canada. The UK got cleaned up because the the UK was considering kicking Amway out. It's possible that Amway loses money to make the changes in the UK but took the hit to avoid being labeled an illegal scam in the UK.

In the US, there are no free functions and overall, Amway prices are ridiculous. Yes there are some Amway products that are competitive. For example, I think LOC is a decent product at a decent price but most of Amway's products cannot compete with similar products that you can buy at WalMart or other retailers.

In the discovery process in the UK, it showed that over 99% of IBO's lost money. Not sure what it is now. Seems Amway will address issues when faced with lawsuits and governement regulation but will allow the tool scam to go on unless they are prodded. And that to me is a scam.

 

[marplots]

I guess the prospect of starting any business must be a scam.

The Amway justification is a bad one. They are comparing starting an Amway business to starting a business requiring a huge outlay and investment. It should more properly be compared to starting your own lemonade stand- little investment, little hope of much profit.

It's sad when this is the fall back rationale (along with customer discounts).

"It might not help, but it can't hurt."

 

[C1REX]

I think it can be a good way to learn about business if somebody is planning to start one someday. A great experience.
Almost any MLM company provide some kind of training. Usually for free.

 

[Meed]

The Amway justification is a bad one. They are comparing starting an Amway business to starting a business requiring a huge outlay and investment. It should more properly be compared to starting your own lemonade stand- little investment, little hope of much profit.

It's sad when this is the fall back rationale (along with customer discounts).

"It might not help, but it can't hurt."

So a small investment with little hope of much profit is worse than a large investment with little hope of much profit how exactly?

 

[marplots]

I think it can be a good way to learn about business if somebody is planning to start one someday. A great experience.
Almost any MLM company provide some kind of training. Usually for free.

So a small investment with little hope of much profit is worse than a large investment with little hope of much profit how exactly?

It's a false dichotomy. The same argument about small investment would apply to any scam you can find on the internet. Plainly, there are many, many other ways to make a living and start a business. I've done it myself (going on five years at it).

The real contradiction comes from the black/white think required in a business model that depends for success on recruiting others who are at least moderately successful. That's the nature of an MLM. There's a linkage here.

How then can we say it doesn't really matter how many fail? The one percent or so who make a decent living at this either have to sell enough products, recruit a large enough downline, sell tangential materials, or, as I suspect is most common, churn through the suckers, relying on Barnum's dictum.

Like many other scams, this one depends on the ignorance of its victims, combined with preying on their false hopes.

 

[Meed]

How then can we say it doesn't really matter how many fail?

A small percentage making a living from something doesn't make it a "scam". Just like the small percentage of new businesses that are successful doesn't make the prospect of starting a new business a "scam".

The one percent or so who make a decent living at this either have to sell enough products, recruit a large enough downline, sell tangential materials, or, as I suspect is most common, churn through the suckers, relying on Barnum's dictum.

Are you complaining that to make money in sales you have to either sell enough products or recruit people to sell for you? How else would you do it?

 

[C1REX]

It's a false dichotomy. The same argument about small investment would apply to any scam you can find on the internet. Plainly, there are many, many other ways to make a living and start a business. I've done it myself (going on five years at it).

Congratulations! Big respect from me as I know it's not easy.
My mother run a small business and it's very hard - she has almost no time for a normal life.

We don't know the real success rate based on people who actually want to be successful, attend meetings and study the business in a professional way.

MLM is an option. One of the cheapest way to learn business.

I don't know how it looks like in USA but here in UK you can meet some amazing people. Every successful person I've met is a great person.
My sponsor told me, that I can call her anytime with any question. Even at 3am. The atmosphere on meetings is fantastic.

I also love the focus on self development. This is priceless.
Even if I won't be rich I've already received a lot of value


If you chose wisely you can't loose any money.
Amway UK cost nothing to join or run the business and the products are so well priced you can save money. I feel proud I can help people to save money and have healthier products. Everybody win.

There are more good MLMs. Lyoness is all about saving money. You get cash-back from your shopping. It costs nothing to join. You can only gain.

Melaleuca is about saving money and the environment.


I believe that MLM is great if you know how to get most out of it. You also have 1-5% chance to become very rich if you are serious about this.


People still can get scammed but only by other people and not by the business model IMHO.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Congratulations! Big respect from me as I know it's not easy.
My mother run a small business and it's very hard - they have almost no time for a normal life.

We don't know the real success rate based on people who actually want to be successful, attend meetings and study the business in a professional way.

MLM is an option. One of the cheapest way to learn business.

I don't know how it looks like in USA but here in UK you can meet some amazing people. Every successful person I've met is a great person.
My sponsor told me, that I can call her anytime with any question. Even at 3am. The atmosphere on meetings is fantastic.

I also love the focus on self development. This is priceless.
Even if I won't be rich I've already received a lot of value


If you chose wisely you can't loose any money.
Amway UK cost nothing to join or run the business and the products are so well priced you can save money. I feel proud I can help people to save money and have healthier products. Everybody win.

There are more good MLMs. Lyoness is all about saving money. You get cash-back from your shopping. It costs nothing to join. You can only gain.

Melaleuca is about saving money and the environment.


I believe that MLM is great if you know how to get most out of it. You also have 1-5% chance to become very rich if you are serious about this.


People still can get scammed but only by other people and not by the business model IMHO.

Can you tell us what your specific experience is with these businesses?

 

[barehl]

The definition of whether it is a scam is pretty simple but I'm not sure that enough information is available.

No normal business gets much revenue from employee sales. However, since people might very well like Amway products, we'll stipulate this to new associates, not just associates in general. If Amway gets even 5% of revenue from new associates and seminars, that would be suspicious. If they got 10%, that would be a scam. Higher than this is more like cult status.

I attended an Amway seminar a long time ago. The main speaker tried to claim that you could make money just by selling the program without ever selling any product. This type of description is clearly a pyramid scheme. I wonder if speakers still talk this way.

 

[C1REX]

Can you tell us what your specific experience is with these businesses?

Mine personal experience is very limited but my girlfriend and her mother are in Lyoness for a while. Same as a friend of mine. Not to make business but to save money.
Her mother does MLM for 20 years - full time.

My GF used to be an editor-in-chief of a MLM magazine in Poland "Zdrowy Biznes" (Healthy Business). She worked for Akuna MLM company for a while - they were bigger than Amway in Poland at that time. Amway has very bad reputation in my home country.

We've joined Amway recently.

I don't know Melaleuca much - I've just heard is a good way to save money on products you use anyway. I use Amway organic cleaners for that.

 

[marplots]

A small percentage making a living from something doesn't make it a "scam". Just like the small percentage of new businesses that are successful doesn't make the prospect of starting a new business a "scam".

It wouldn't be a scam if it didn't rely on people believing they are starting a business or that the "business" has real potential. Regardless of the theoretical analysis, the plain fact is that for the vast majority it's a loser. If there were no other options, I might think differently. Amway is a poor option, designed to attract the uninformed and the desperate with tales of wealth and independence.

Are you complaining that to make money in sales you have to either sell enough products or recruit people to sell for you? How else would you do it?

I'm complaining that no matter how it is framed, the statistics do not lie. Even if success is actually under the salesperson's control (which I do not think it is), the numbers tell us these products are not selling enough to make a living doing it. The net result is that bad salesmen are relying on recruiting better salesmen. But they end up recruiting people just like them, who are also hoping to recruit good salesmen.

But good salespeople sell things that make them money. I think the reason the winner is so rare is because it's a rare "good salesman" who sticks with Amway instead of selling other products.

I also think Amway leverages a misconception among the "wage slaves" that "owning your own business" is some magical formula to wealth.

 

[Joecool]

The definition of whether it is a scam is pretty simple but I'm not sure that enough information is available.

No normal business gets much revenue from employee sales. However, since people might very well like Amway products, we'll stipulate this to new associates, not just associates in general. If Amway gets even 5% of revenue from new associates and seminars, that would be suspicious. If they got 10%, that would be a scam. Higher than this is more like cult status.

I attended an Amway seminar a long time ago. The main speaker tried to claim that you could make money just by selling the program without ever selling any product. This type of description is clearly a pyramid scheme. I wonder if speakers still talk this way.

Some spakers still downplay the need to sell products. Basically the premise is that you move your 100 PV (costs about $300) and you get others to duplicate you. Whether you use the products or not is irrelevant except as an example to your downline and prospects. Because when your group is big enough, you achieve financial freedom. This in my opinion creates an artificial demand for these products. The purchase of products is needed to keep your dreams alive.

Then the upline will tell you that tools are vital and that you need to subcribe to the tools to successful. And that's where the scam is.

 

[C1REX]

Some spakers still downplay the need to sell products. Basically the premise is that you move your 100 PV (costs about $300) and you get others to duplicate you. Whether you use the products or not is irrelevant except as an example to your downline and prospects. Because when your group is big enough, you achieve financial freedom. This in my opinion creates an artificial demand for these products. The purchase of products is needed to keep your dreams alive.

Then the upline will tell you that tools are vital and that you need to subcribe to the tools to successful. And that's where the scam is.

You probably right but that are people who scam others - not the business model.
It happens all the time in all business.

MLM is not easy but classic business is not not eaay as well. Sometimes even harder and way more risky. Being hard is not a scam.

 

[marplots]

You probably right but that are people who scam others - not the business model.
It happens all the time in all business.
MLM is not easy but classic business is not not eaay as well. Sometimes even harder and way more risky. Being hard is not a scam.

Being hard is not a scam. Being nearly impossible may be.

Consider a parallel business that sells headshots and bios for aspiring actresses. If they knew that only one in a thousand had a chance of getting a role, would it be a scam to sell their services as an "opportunity to make it as an actor?"

I'll admit it's subjective.

I would be curious to hear from you some examples of what you would consider a scam - just so I understand how we differ in our definitions.

 

[C1REX]

According to many statistics 95% of small business fail within 5 years.
summitbusinesssolutions.ws/docs/reasons_biz_fail.pdf
Does it mean that starting a small business is a scam and nobody should do it?

MLM success rate is not much different even considering people who join MLM just to save money and never intended to make business.
If you chose a company wisely that doesn't cost to join and you like the product then you can't lose any money. Unless you do it completely wrong.


I believe that I have much higher chance of success in MLM than in classic business. Just my opinion. Worth trying even just for training, satisfaction and being close to some amazing and successful people.


Being around people who always complain and never do anything is depressing.
(BTW: It's very rare when successful people in classic business talk bad about MLM)

 

[marplots]

If someone comes up with an idea for a business, they try it out and they fail at it, there's no one to blame but themselves. If I sell them on the idea of a business, knowing full well they are very likely to fail, I've scammed them.

This could not be simpler. It is unethical to sell someone on a false dream, no matter what mental gymnastics are used to excuse the behavior.

 

[C1REX]

How it's a scam if by law (at least in UK) you must show all data? It's also available on amway UK website. All Internet is talking how hard is to be successful in MLM. It's an opportunity, not a guarantee.
The difference to classic business: nothing to lose.


BTW: Showing the plan to people who are going to fail for sure is a waste of time. You show the plan only to people who are interested. Do it as honestly as you can. It's up to you how ethically you run the business.

 

[Wowbagger]

How it's a scam if by law (at least in UK) you must show all data? It's also available on amway UK website. All Internet is talking how hard is to be successful in MLM. It's an opportunity, not a guarantee.
The difference to classic business: nothing to lose.


BTW: Showing the plan to people who are going to fail for sure is a waste of time. You show the plan only to people who are interested. Do it as honestly as you can. It's up to you how ethically you run the business.

I don't know how it is in the UK. But, in the USA, Amway IBOs are a LOT more slimier than that!

They do NOT typically show "all the data". And, if they do, they try to hand-wave it and sugar-coat it as much as possible.

And, they usually try to coral as many people as possible into their pitches as they can. They don't limit it to "only people who are interested". They TRY to make as many people as possible interested!

The one pitch I sat in didn't even mention the word "Amway" until late in the presentation. It was originally billed, rather generically, as an "investment opportunity".