Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

[dejudge]

Why do you believe the Bible?

Why do you take this rubbish at face value?

Why can't you see that these later traditions that were added to the story tell us very little, if anything, about the HJ?

Are you really unable to understand this very simple and basic point?

Why do you use fiction stories at FACE VALUE? You use gLuke a book of mythology for the age of your dead Jesus and do so without corroboration.

You accept at FACE VALUE that gLuke provides an historical account of the age of Jesus..

You Forgot that gLuke Jesus was the Son of God and born of a Ghost.

You forgot that gLuke is a LATE Myth fable and that the age of Jesus was a LATE addition which is not found in gMark and gMatthew.

You forgot that gLuke was the Last Myth Fable of the Synoptics.

 

[dejudge]

Even many educated Jews wrote in Greek during this period.

The educated Jews did not write the DEAD SEA SCROLLS IN GREEK.

 

[Brainache]

Why do you use fiction stories at FACE VALUE? You use gLuke a book of mythology for the age of your dead Jesus and do so without corroboration.

You accept at FACE VALUE that gLuke provides an historical account of the age of Jesus..

You Forgot that gLuke Jesus was the Son of God and born of a Ghost.

You forgot that gLuke is a LATE Myth fable and that the age of Jesus was a LATE addition which is not found in gMark and gMatthew.

You forgot that gLuke was the Last Myth Fable of the Synoptics.

Not really. I just assume that Jesus was under 40 years old as the early sources tell us.

I don't believe the birth narratives of Luke or Matthew.

But I don't think Jesus was very old when he died, because he had a Brother who lived until he was killed in 64 CE. That is from Josephus, not the bible.

 

[Brainache]

The educated Jews did not write the DEAD SEA SCROLLS IN GREEK.

What kind of education do you think the DSS authors had?

Were they educated in the Temple, like Paul?

Why, or why not?

 

[Foster Zygote]

The educated Jews did not write the DEAD SEA SCROLLS IN GREEK.

Umm... Actually, some of the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Greek. Didn't you know that?

Now, would you please show us any of the passages I asked for?

 

[dejudge]

Not really. I just assume that Jesus was under 40 years old as the early sources tell us.

You did what?? You assumed!!!!

You assumed the age of your unknown dead Jesus!!!

You assumed he lived!!!

I don't believe the birth narratives of Luke or Matthew.

But I don't think Jesus was very old when he died, because he had a Brother who lived until he was killed in 64 CE. That is from Josephus, not the bible.

You don't believe Matthew or Luke anymore??

Now, now, now!! How absolutely illogical and absurd can you be!! Even if your unknown dead Jesus did live it is just baseless nonsense that you can tell his age by the death of his supposed brother.

Can someone please talk to Brainache??

How in the world can the death of anyone determine the age of another person whose date of birth is unknown?

Now the brother of Jesus the Christ was killed in Josephus but your UNKNOWN Jesus was a preacher--not the Christ.

The death of Jesus the Jewish preacher is not in Josephus but the death of Jesus the Christ is found in gMatthew and gLuke.

Who told you Jesus the Christ in Josephus was dead?

It wasn't Josephus!!

It is in the Bible!!

You believe the Bible.

 

[dejudge]

Umm... Actually, some of the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Greek. Didn't you know that?

Now, would you please show us any of the passages I asked for?

Please tell us the date of those Greek texts!!

In any event, none of the 2nd century manuscripts with the Jesus story was written in the Hebrew language.

You did not know that?

 

[Brainache]

You did what?? You assumed!!!!

You assumed the age of your unknown dead Jesus!!!

You assumed he lived!!!



You don't believe Matthew or Luke anymore??

Now, now, now!! How absolutely illogical and absurd can you be!! Even if your unknown dead Jesus did live it is just baseless nonsense that you can tell his age by the death of his supposed brother.

Can someone please talk to Brainache??

How in the world can the death of anyone determine the age of another person whose date of birth is unknown?

Now the brother of Jesus the Christ was killed in Josephus but your UNKNOWN Jesus was a preacher--not the Christ.

The death of Jesus the Jewish preacher is not in Josephus but the death of Jesus the Christ is found in gMatthew and gLuke.

Who told you Jesus the Christ in Josephus was dead?

It wasn't Josephus!!

It is in the Bible!!

You believe the Bible.

If they shared the same mother, there is a limit to how far apart their ages can be. If Jesus was crucified under Pilate, it must have happened in the early to mid 30's CE.

He was at least an adult when it happened. Then about 30 years later his Brother is Stoned to Death for Blasphemy, according to Josephus. I'm not sure how old James was when that happened, but he was not young, possibly in his 60's or younger.

But, given the way things were in those days, the difference in ages between the eldest and youngest Siblings isn't likely to be much more than ten or so years. Look it up.

Happy New Year!

 

[dejudge]

If they shared the same mother, there is a limit to how far apart their ages can be.

If Jesus was crucified under Pilate, it must have happened in the early to mid 30's CE.

He was at least an adult when it happened. Then about 30 years later his Brother is Stoned to Death for Blasphemy, according to Josephus. I'm not sure how old James was when that happened, but he was not young, possibly in his 60's or younger.

But, given the way things were in those days, the difference in ages between the eldest and youngest Siblings isn't likely to be much more than ten or so years. Look it up.

Happy New Year!

Your post is just a mess. You are compounding your illogical absurdities.

You ASSUMED that your Jewish preacher was the Christ in Josephus.

You ASSUMED your Jewish preacher was 30 years old.

You ASSUMED your Jewish preacher had the same mother.

You ASSUMED your Jewish preacher was crucified under Pilate.

You ASSUMED your Jewish preached lived AROUND c 30 CE.

You ASSUMED James in Josephus was about 60 years or younger.


If you do not believe the Bible how did you manage to make those Assumptions?

What sources are you using? Which book supports your assumptions?

It is clear that you just ASSUMED your UNKNOWN dead Jewish preacher lived.


You have no evidence from antiquity and have fully demonstrated how to assemble an UNKNOWN dead by assumptions.

 

[Craig B]

The educated Jews did not write the DEAD SEA SCROLLS IN GREEK.

I take it the majuscule represents your indignation AT THE VERY IDEA!! But some of them DID!!

All of the Greek texts among the Dead Sea Scrolls are written in koine, the common dialect of the post-classical Hellenistic and Roman worlds and the New Testament language. A total of 27 Greek manuscripts have been identified from the Qumran caves. This includes all remains of 19 papyri found in Qumran Cave 7, and several Greek manuscripts preserved in Cave 4, made up of mostly biblical fragments. While the majority of the Cave 7 manuscripts cannot be identified, exceptions are a copy of Exodus and an Apocrypha work, the Epistle of Jeremiah. Attempts to identify some Cave 7 Greek fragments as Enoch are subject to debate, while attempts to identify fragments as New Testament have proven unsuccessful.

http://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/learn-about-the-scrolls/languages-and-scripts

ETA Sorry, Foster Zygote. I see you got there first.

 

[maximara]

(snip)

You only think that because you have such a simplistic concept of history. You seem to think that history is some sort of perfect record, and that anything that ever happened is preserved for us. You seem to think that all we have to do to determine what happened in the distant past is to go look up the records, and if no record exists from that time period, then it cannot have actually happened. Of course, you only apply this reasoning to Christianity, otherwise you'd be dismissing a great many non-Christian writers as Medieval inventions.

From Evidence for the historical existence of Jesus Christ:

"What qualifies as good evidence?

In order of quality good evidence is:

1) Contemporary evidence: Evidence that dates to the time the person or event actually happened.

2) Derivative evidence: Evidence that is known to use contemporary record-evidence that has since been lost.

3) Comparative evidence: Evidence that gives details that can be checked against known factors of the time.

A good rule of thumb here is that history records the unusual, the special, and the important; and the amount history records is generally directly proportional to when these factors achieve a critical mass. If a person is said to be important and popular during their lifetime then it is reasonable to expect contemporary evidence, or at the least derivative evidence, documenting this."

Take a good look at the Jesus story:

NO Contemporary evidence, NO Derivative evidence, and what little Comparative evidence there is does a major fail (a slaughter no one else records, an anachronistic and logicality insane census, illogical trials that no one even remarks about)

More over there is NO reference to any Gospel (not so much as a quote) until the 130s. Supposedly Mark was written c70 CE and yet NO one even mentions it or any other Gospel until c130? How does that work? How do you not mention an account of the man whose words are the key to the salvation of your immortal soul for nearly 70 years?!

Finally, why was the first attempt as making a Christian Bible (Marcion c140 CE ) so anti Jewish but not contain John (which can be reasonably argued is so anti Jewish as to be practically antisemitic)?

If Marcion was holding that the god of the Jews (and of this world) was an evil incompetent demiurge (see 2 Corinthians 4:4 for just what this really means) then an altered version of John where Jesus' enemies are "the Jews" would have seemingly fit the bill...but he doesn't use it. Why?

 

[Brainache]

Your post is just a mess. You are compounding your illogical absurdities.

You ASSUMED that your Jewish preacher was the Christ in Josephus.

You ASSUMED your Jewish preacher was 30 years old.

You ASSUMED your Jewish preacher had the same mother.

You ASSUMED your Jewish preacher was crucified under Pilate.

You ASSUMED your Jewish preached lived AROUND c 30 CE.

You ASSUMED James in Josephus was about 60 years or younger.


If you do not believe the Bible how did you manage to make those Assumptions?

What sources are you using? Which book supports your assumptions?

It is clear that you just ASSUMED your UNKNOWN dead Jewish preacher lived.


You have no evidence from antiquity and have fully demonstrated how to assemble an UNKNOWN dead by assumptions.

You know nothing about the study of History, so I take all of what you say as a compliment.

I would start to worry if you agreed with me.

 

[Elagabalus]

Pontius Pilate is found in the writings of Philo and Josephus--Not Paul and Jesus.

Paul and Jesus are found in Mythology--the Bible.

Nice try. PP is also mentioned in all four of the gospels which the last time I checked are also considered part of the Bible or more specifically the New Testament (NT). He also has a brief cameo in Tacitus

Your move ...

 

[Craig B]

Nice try. PP is also mentioned in all four of the gospels which the last time I checked are also considered part of the Bible or more specifically the New Testament (NT). He also has a brief cameo in Tacitus

Your move ...

Love your blog name Elagabalus. One of my favourite emperors. I have mentioned him in the threads before for his famous technological innovation. He is the inventor of the whoopee cushion. See wiki.

Later historians suggest Elagabalus showed a disregard for Roman religious traditions and sexual taboos. He ... lavished favors on male courtiers popularly thought to have been his lovers, employed a prototype of whoopee cushions at dinner parties, and was reported to have prostituted himself in the imperial palace.

Back to your post: I think dejudge is stating that although PP is found in the works of these ancient writers, Jesus and Paul are not. Dejudge doesn't acknowledge the existence of different sources or strata within the NT, which he thinks is a uniform mass of lies consciously concocted for the purposes of deceit in either the late second, or fourth, centuries. He has not told us who perpetrated this forgery, or why, or where, or anything. If you show that early Christians are mentioned by pre fourth century authors he rejects these notices as interpolations by later forgers (unknown) and states that early references to Christians are in fact all references to other messianic groups. This bizarre intellectual construction is immune to rational attack, of course; just as the contents of a dream can't be refuted by reasoned argument.

 

[svarog]

Then about 30 years later his Brother is Stoned to Death for Blasphemy, according to Josephus.

Why do you and, I think, Foster Zygote, ignore Carrier and his conclusion that Josephus on James is "an accidental interpolation or scribal emendation"?
Just take out phrase "who was called Christ" and the whole thing reads differently.
That is a peer reviewed article in something called "Journal of Early Christian Studies".



Yeah, if anybody is wondering I would give higher odds to HJ against MJ.

 

[Brainache]

Why do you and, I think, Foster Zygote, ignore Carrier and his conclusion that Josephus on James is "an accidental interpolation or scribal emendation"?
Just take out phrase "who was called Christ" and the whole thing reads differently.
That is a peer reviewed article in something called "Journal of Early Christian Studies".



Yeah, if anybody is wondering I would give higher odds to HJ against MJ.

Yes, but then you have to wonder about all the James references in Clement, Hegesippus, Origen and all the other early Church sources. As well as their references to Josephus mentioning James as more influential than Jesus.

They (the early Church Fathers) didn't like Josephus saying that James was the reason Jerusalem was destroyed, and it appears that not long after the Church was in a position to control such things, these Josephan passages disappear from our received versions... How curious.

These little MJ factoids only ever work when looked at in isolation, they never account for the bigger picture.

 

[IanS]

But Paul was worshipping what he believed to be a dead, or spirit, Jesus. Because Paul never knew any living Jesus. And afaik, nor does he give any details of knowing anyone else that had ever known a living Jesus.

James the Lord's brother. Peter. John.

Don't think so. What details about a human Jesus did anyone called James Peter or John ever give to Paul?

I think you are constantly assuming your own answers in this subject. Eg, taking a prior belief in the reality of Jesus, and reading various ambiguous and vague biblical passages as if they confirmed your belief.

Afaik, nobody called James, Peter or John ever gave any credible details/description of a human Jesus to anyone.

 

[Craig B]

Don't think so. What details about a human Jesus did anyone called James Peter or John ever give to Paul?

Stop moving the goalposts! You asked

And afaik, nor does he give any details of knowing anyone else that had ever known a living Jesus.

James the lord's brother. OK. But then you perform a clever side shuffle and pretend you asked, what details about Jesus did Paul claim to receive from any other person? That is a different question. The answer is none. But why? I'm not going to tell you because you did that naughty question swap!

 

[Belz...]

Pontius Pilate is found in the writings of Philo and Josephus--Not Paul and Jesus.

Wooooosh !

You can't even understand your own arguments.

 

[Belz...]

Your post is just a mess. You are compounding your illogical absurdities.

You ASSUMED that your Jewish preacher was the Christ in Josephus.

You ASSUMED your Jewish preacher was 30 years old.

You ASSUMED your Jewish preacher had the same mother.

You ASSUMED your Jewish preacher was crucified under Pilate.

You ASSUMED your Jewish preached lived AROUND c 30 CE.

You ASSUMED James in Josephus was about 60 years or younger.


If you do not believe the Bible how did you manage to make those Assumptions?

What sources are you using? Which book supports your assumptions?

It is clear that you just ASSUMED your UNKNOWN dead Jewish preacher lived.


You have no evidence from antiquity and have fully demonstrated how to assemble an UNKNOWN dead by assumptions.

Gosh you are really in love with your own words, aren't you ? You just found a new toy ("assume") and are abusing it like a toddler would.