Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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Oddly, you are arguing against me here when my post to Belz actually could be used to support your position, though you seemed to take it to counter your position for some reason.

You are arguing against me when you should arguing against Belz, Craig B, Brainache and all those who have no evidence whatsoever for their unknown dead HJ.

I have evidence for Myth Jesus in hundreds of manuscripts, Codices and Apologetic writings.

You are wasting time arguing with me.

I have evidence. I came prepared.

You without doubt have a massive amount of education.

I only have a massive amount of evidence from antiquity to support my argument that Jesus is a myth just like God.
 
I have criticized both parties, and produced no counter arguments for any position.

As I said in the other thread, you don't really understand my criticism and think I'm against you or attacking you in some manner when I am absolutely not doing that; meanwhile I have had to suffer your belligerent yelling at me, insulting me, belittling me, dismissing me, and just odd demands that I prove Jesus existed when I have never made a claim in either direction (which you seem to think means I should just shut up and go away).

Your last post there highlights another issue; you are extremist and polarized in your view of this topic.
Either I am with you or I am against you.
I should 'argue against Belz, Craig B, Brainache, and not you'; leaving out the entire option of critiquing both sides.

But don't worry yourself, as I mentioned in the other thread, I'll leave you alone and you will get your wish.
I will now shut up and go away; mostly because I have raised all of the central critiques valuable worth raising as far as they can be with your refusal of open discussion and respectful inquiry, and as such, I have more enjoyable things to engage in than your badgering responses which are littered with overly defensive tonality and personality.

Again, I hope one day you refine your argument, as there are many ways I can see where it could be crafted better and could be rather interesting should you choose to address those issues and better your points.

Cheers.
 
But don't worry yourself, as I mentioned in the other thread, I'll leave you alone and you will get your wish.
I will now shut up and go away....

My position is that Jesus is Myth just like God--all magic and no known history.

You don't know and don't care whether or not Jesus existed.

So, why were arguing with me in the first place when I have evidence for myth Jesus in hundreds of manuscripts, Codices and Apologetic writings?

Why, Why, Why???
 
My position is that Jesus is Myth just like God--all magic and no known history.

You don't know and don't care whether or not Jesus existed.

So, why were arguing with me in the first place when I have evidence for myth Jesus in hundreds of manuscripts, Codices and Apologetic writings?

Why, Why, Why???

Because you don't know the difference between "face value" and "critical", when it comes to reading ancient texts.
 
My position is that Jesus is Myth just like God--all magic and no known history.
Yes, thank you. We get that.

You don't know and don't care whether or not Jesus existed.
That is an unfair characterization and only goes to demonstrate that JaysonR is correct about you: You aren't here to exchange ideas. You came here seeking enemies to oppose. You can't learn anything because you have an a priori lack of respect for anyone who might question your claims or disagree with your arguments. Rather than debate and consider what others present, you rely on obstreperous contrarianism in an attempt to mask your own ignorance.

So, why were arguing with me in the first place when I have evidence for myth Jesus in hundreds of manuscripts, Codices and Apologetic writings?
Yeah. That's some open and shut evidence you've presented:

* Religious figures made magical claims about Jesus, therefor he can't have been a real person, even though we have numerous examples of historically undisputed people having magical claims made about them.

* No famous writers from the 1st century mention a little known religious crank from one of the dustier parts of the Empire in any of their surviving works. (Other than an oblique reference to his brother.)

* No texts survive from the time that they are thought to have been written, therefor they cannot have been written earlier than the oldest available textual witnesses, even though many of the contemporary historians you complain did not mention Jesus have no surviving texts from before the Middle Ages.

Why, Why, Why???
Why do you use so much unnecessary capitalization? Why, why, why???
 
... gMatthew's Jesus is essentially gMark's Jesus with a birth narrative and a post resurrection visit in Galilee.
Correct for once. But as I've shown he magnifies Mark's Jesus in more detailed ways too, as in the baptism account and making Jesus not want to do miracles in his home town rather than not be able to, as in Mark.

But you're saying Matthew added evident supernatural fictions about Jesus' birth and resurrection to Mark - yes he did. Luke also took Mark's Jesus and added birth and resurrection stories, but different ones! So it's impossible to identify them with Mark, as you are vainly, if repeatedly, trying to do. And of course Mark already contains other legendary material about Jesus, but the later Synoptics have more. What do you conclude from this? That the whole thing was forged in the late second or fourth centuries? No. Anyway you've no evidence for that.
 
You must have forgotten what is found in Against Heresies 2.22 attributed to Irenaeus that Jesus was crucified at the age of FIFTY years old.

It would be virtually impossible for Irenaeus to have known of gJohn and argued that Jesus was crucified c 50 CE UNDER Claudius when Jesus was crucified in the time of Pilate in gJohn.

It would be virtually impossible for Irenaeus to have known of the Pauline Corpus and claim Jesus was crucified c 50 CE when Paul supposedly preached Christ crucified c 37-41 in the time of King Aretas.

In fact, Irenaeus writing c 180 CE and arguing that Jesus was crucified c 50 CE confirms that the Pauline Corpus and Acts of the Apostles was unknown in the Church.

Or like Epiphanius, Irenaeus is making a dogmatical argument (Epiphanius' position was that Jesus was the immediate successor of Alexander Jannaeus (104-78 BCE)...while also stating that Jesus lived in the 1st century CE :boggled:) and soldiered on even if it made no blasted sense.
 
Correct for once. But as I've shown he magnifies Mark's Jesus in more detailed ways too, as in the baptism account and making Jesus not want to do miracles in his home town rather than not be able to, as in Mark.

But you're saying Matthew added evident supernatural fictions about Jesus' birth and resurrection to Mark - yes he did. Luke also took Mark's Jesus and added birth and resurrection stories, but different ones! So it's impossible to identify them with Mark, as you are vainly, if repeatedly, trying to do. And of course Mark already contains other legendary material about Jesus, but the later Synoptics have more. What do you conclude from this? That the whole thing was forged in the late second or fourth centuries? No. Anyway you've no evidence for that.

How in the world can additional details about the birth of Jesus the Son of God in gMatthew and gLuke make their Jesus different characters?

It is highly illogical that there were multiple Emperors called Vespasian because the stories about him by Tacitus and Suetonius are not identical.

It is highly illogical that there were multiple persons called Pilate because Philo's and Josephus' stories about Pilate are not the same.
 
How in the world can additional details about the birth of Jesus the Son of God in gMatthew and gLuke make their Jesus different characters?

It is highly illogical that there were multiple Emperors called Vespasian because the stories about him by Tacitus and Suetonius are not identical.

It is highly illogical that there were multiple persons called Pilate because Philo's and Josephus' stories about Pilate are not the same.
You're distorting my words. Mark and Luke are talking about the same Jesus, but they have different pictures of him. I said, not that the Jesus was a different person, but that the miracle stories in Luke were additional to those in Mark. Because Mark has no birth story at all, has he? Now Matthew and Luke have different stories about the birth. Not additional, but different. Do you think that means I believe Jesus was born in Bethlehem c 4 BCE as in Matthew, and then a different Jesus was born there in 6 AD as per Luke? What a silly idea!

I think you're now just stating the first thing that comes into your head, in a vain attempt to sustain your feeble and unsound arguments. I regret this.
 
You are arguing against me when you should arguing against Belz, Craig B, Brainache and all those who have no evidence whatsoever for their unknown dead HJ.

And that is what this is all about, isn't it ? You against them. Black vs white. You are utterly unable to discern gray.

I have evidence. I came prepared.

No, you don't, and no you didn't.
 
Let me make my position absolutely clear.

Based on the abundance of evidence from antiquity it was the Fall of the Temple of the God of the Jews c 70 CE that triggered the story of Jesus, the Son of God.

There was NO actual person called Jesus of Nazareth.

Non-Jews fabricated a story sometime AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple or after c 70 CE that the Jews KILLED the Son of God who came down from heaven.

After people believed the story was true it was altered and Jesus , the Son of God became the Universal Savior of mankind by Remission of Sins by Sacrifice.

The earliest story of Jesus the Son of God did NOT include Universal Remission of Sins by Sacrifice as is evident in the short gMark.

There is NO record of the NEW religion of the Jesus cult in non-apologetic sources until the mid-late 2nd century by Lucian of Samosata who noted that there were Christians in Palestine who worshiped a crucified man.

Lucian's Death of Peregrine
It was now that he came across the priests and scribes of the Christians, in Palestine, and picked up their queer creed. ............ The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day,--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.

There is simply no evidence at all of any story of Jesus in non-apologetic sources of the 1st century before c 70 CE and no surviving manuscripts of any source have been recovered and dated to the 1st century.

The surviving dated manuscripts about the Jesus story match the earliest known non-apologetic sources in the 2nd century.

It must be noted that all the Gospels in the NT have been found to be forgeries, that is, they were really later writings [ after c 70 CE] but were attributed to fake 1st century authors.

The recovered 2nd century manuscripts, the 2nd century non-apologetic writings and all the fake Gospels and Epistle authors do suggest that the Jesus story originated in the 2nd century and not in the time of Pilate.
 
Well, we're getting somewhere here. At least dejudge has explained his position; fair enough. So we can conclude that according to dejudge, the works of all four Gospel writers, Paul, Clement, Tacitus, Josephus, Suetonius, Pliny, Justin Martyr, Polycarp, and probably a good many others I have forgotten are forged by persons unknown at a time unknown. Or, they are dismissed as not coming from "original manuscripts", even though most of the authors dejudge cites as support for his MJ themselves have no extant manuscripts dated prior to the Middle Ages.

Is that a fair representation?
 
Well, we're getting somewhere here. At least dejudge has explained his position; fair enough. So we can conclude that according to dejudge, the works of all four Gospel writers, Paul, Clement, Tacitus, Josephus, Suetonius, Pliny, Justin Martyr, Polycarp, and probably a good many others I have forgotten are forged by persons unknown at a time unknown. Or, they are dismissed as not coming from "original manuscripts", even though most of the authors dejudge cites as support for his MJ themselves have no extant manuscripts dated prior to the Middle Ages.

Is that a fair representation?

Your post is most unfair and bizarre.

1. I did not claim Justin Martyr's writings were forgeries.

2. I did not claim all Josephus' writings were forgeries.

3. I did not claim all Tacitus' writings were forgeries.

4. I did not claim all Suetomius' writings were forgeries.

5. I did not claim all Pliny the younger's writings were forgeries
 
But it is fair to say you think the Epistles of Paul were written after the synoptics and John?
 
Your post is most unfair and bizarre.

1. I did not claim Justin Martyr's writings were forgeries.

2. I did not claim all Josephus' writings were forgeries.

3. I did not claim all Tacitus' writings were forgeries.

4. I did not claim all Suetomius' writings were forgeries.

5. I did not claim all Pliny the younger's writings were forgeries

Then, you reject them on the other grounds I suggested? Is that a fair representation?

Or, they are dismissed as not coming from "original manuscripts", even though most of the authors dejudge cites as support for his MJ themselves have no extant manuscripts dated prior to the Middle Ages.
 
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