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Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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AK's aliby was disproven by RS himself, who changed story and withdrew it. He even told a completely different story about going out together in the evening, her coming back late etc.

The hallmark of your factoids is that nearly none of them made it to a courtroom, and Crini has mentioned none of them, and Crini even had Sollecito in the court!

No matter, here's the answer to your factoid that Raffaele had withdrawn Knox's alibi... I also think you need to explain why the police did not record Sollectico's "withdrawal of an alibi" when they were recording everything else. It seems that the police purposely did not record this precisely so that they could set up a he said/they said scenario... it was the police's responsibility to make sure that you and I, six years later, were not arguing about this. But no matter.... here's a first person account:

Honor Bound p.52-55 said:
I'd like to be able to give you the full transcript, word by excruciating word. But the police, who were recording absolutely everything else concerning Amanda and me in this period - phone calls, emails, private conversations in the Questura - somehow omitted to turn on a single recording device that night.... when challenged on this point Prosecutor Mignini suggested that the Questura was suffering a budget crunch...

... They were quite literally out to get me, and I did not appreciate this until too late.... I mentioned that Amanda and I gone out shopping, something I had apparently omitted in my previous statements. I couldn't see the importance of this detail, but my interrogators gave me the strangest of looks.

I told them that one day had blended into another in my mind. Perhaps we had gone shopping the day before. What did I know?

"You need to remember what you did," one of them admonished.

They asked if Amanda had gone out that night and on the spur of the moment, I couldn't say. Was November 1st a Tuesday or a Thursday? I asked. Because I knew she worked at Le Chic on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

I noticed a calendar in the room and asked if I could consult it.

"Don't touch the calendar," one of them said sharply.... was November 1st the day Amanda soent the evening out and I stayed home? (I was thinking of Hallowe'en.)... as the interrogation continued I offered both scenarios....

.... "If it was a Thursday she probably went to work."

"You don't know what she did, do you? Come on, tell us everything."

Napoleoni was in the room for this part of the conversation. Without warning, she turned on me with venom in her voice. "What did you do?" she demanded. "You need to tell us. You don't know what the cow, that whore, got up to?"

As Raffaele relates, it is clear that the police viewed Knox as their main suspect before he got to the Questura, and before Ficarra went out to the waiting area even ask Knox to check her phone, and to let her know she'd been caught lying about the drug use in the cottage (a lie everyone in the cottage told, apparently.)

Then Knox was taken in to her own ordeal, once again unrecorded... then Raffaele emptied his pockets to show the pocket knife, then he surrendered his shoes.

Good try, Machiavelli. The factoid version of your allegations is perhaps more lurid, but one perhaps has a right to hear the whole story.

The cops had a responsibility to let the whole story be told on video or transcript... one switch flipped, but you know - those pesky budget constraints!

If North-Corea vs Brazil 2012 football game had ended after 45 minutes, North Corea would have eliminated Brazil from the championship.

That actually was a side-tickler! But not exactly an analogy. It's more like having the football match end after 90 minutes 6-0 for Brazil.... but keeping extra time going until NK could manufacture 7 goals!
 
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If you talk about the Scazzi case, well, there is a bit to say about factual details beyond what is said by Nadeau and RoseMontague.

At the end, Sabrina and Cosima were sentenced to life by a judges panel leaded by to women. I would be cautious before labelling leading woman judges as "mysoginistic".

Don't be absurd. I can't believe you even wrote that. It's like saying George Zimmerman can't be racist because he's part Hispanic.

Also, the "I would be cautious" part sounds more like Quennell, The Machine, McCall or Ergon than like Machiavelli. Empty threats that low-intellect dingbats have convinced themselves will instill fear in others -- as if. Have you lent your ID to one of them?

Violence against women exists as a common criminal phenomenon, but I fail to see any connection between this and guilt or innocence of Misseri. These rationalizations/connections are kind of anthropologic dietrologia, really bad stuff.

The obvious connection is that in both the Kercher and Misseri cases, men confessed to being at the scenes of the crimes, and physical evidence against them was found, but the police chose to think those were not interesting enough solutions. You have to live under a severely misogynistic cultural umbrella to prefer thinking that women are killing women when all the facts and statistics say otherwise.
 
Machiavelli said:
If you talk about the Scazzi case, well, there is a bit to say about factual details beyond what is said by Nadeau and RoseMontague.

At the end, Sabrina and Cosima were sentenced to life by a judges panel leaded by to women. I would be cautious before labelling leading woman judges as "mysoginistic".

Don't be absurd. I can't believe you even wrote that. It's like saying George Zimmerman can't be racist because he's part Hispanic.

Also, the "I would be cautious" part sounds more like Quennell, The Machine, McCall or Ergon than like Machiavelli. Empty threats that low-intellect dingbats have convinced themselves will instill fear in others -- as if. Have you lent your ID to one of them?

I once suggested that Machiavelli be cautious about saying that Hellmann was a criminal, as he claimed Vecchiotti was a criminal. He did not appreciate the advice.
 
Locke and Neff and Swecker and Wolf

Do you even read these articles before you climb up on that high horse? That testimony is not even from his murder trial. In fact, Crowder was never even called as witness in the trial that convicted him.

Emphasis on "among other things", I suppose. Of which, indeed, there was no shortage.
Crowder made a witness statement, as opposed to testifying at Taylor's original trial; however, she did testify as part of the investigation begun by the Innocence Inquiry Commission. I still find her testimony completely unreliable. Thomas Bevel was a professor at University of Central Oklahoma. Although he does not hold a Ph.D., he holds a Master's degree and leads his own consulting firm. No one but Machiavelli has argued that Stefanoni holds anything beyond a bachelor's degree. That and the fact that Bevel understands the importance of complete discovery separates them.

For background on the problems at the NC SBI crime lab as they relate to the prosecution of Gregory Taylor, I recommend reading the many articles in the Raleigh News and Observer and the Swecker Wolf report. It surprises me that not everyone has come to the conclusion that the case against Taylor was risible, but it takes all kinds to make the world go around.
 
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I don't believe they found any spots with Filomena's DNA and Meredith's blood or DNA mixed together.

.

Of course the list is long on the mishandling of evidence.

The absence of any "missing evidence" means nothing when you have a severely mishandled crime scene, for example, computer experts who ruin several hard drives and <enter long list of other mishandled items here...semen stain...stomache contents>

I doubt they looked very hard for anyone else.


Personally, I think the prosecution and early helpers were fooled by Rudy Guede. What if all of this is ongoing because Mignini is nothing but a fool, and the system blindly supported him.

Then the PGP believe in the Mignini Religion, because they trust that the polizia and forensic team must be correct because they have specialists like Edgardo Giobbi, Computer Experts, and Stefonani.

A castle full of fools, maybe? Rudy Guede fooled them all and will be out laughing soon enough at the Clown Cops who weren't smart enough to run the investigation or count tennis shoeprint circles.
 
I don't believe they found any spots with Filomena's DNA and Meredith's blood or DNA mixed together.

Hard to say for certain as they did not get a DNA reference sample from Filomena or Laura and there were some DNA samples that were unidentified (and most likely more than what Stefi reported).
 
RS alibi was proven false by his own computer.

This is a curious interpretation.

The computer proves he was wrong about the details of what he did that night, but also proves that he was at home all night. As such it seems much more accurate and honest to say that his own computer confirms his alibi.

Surely the important point was that he can prove he was not present when the murder happened? That seems to pretty much rule out any involvement.

It was shown to be false also by its intrinsic weakness, since the alibi was unrealistically poor and did not report any details (Sollecito claims he doesn't recall if they had sex; she doesn't remember either; he doesn't remember what they ate; she neither; she doesn't remember a single thing she did, and offer an unrealistic wide array of any possible activity, all of which she did not do; he is also fails to say anything).

How does any of this matter? If they were at home when the killing took place then they are innocent, whether they were having sex or not.

It was disproven by Quintavalle, who saw Knox before his store, while the claim that other employees denied what he saw or that he himself allegedly contradicted it, is absolutely false. Those you tell about Quintavalle are lies, there are transcripts to show that.

Citation or it's false. The various people who post under the Machiavelli name have not exactly been reliable sources on matters of fact, sorry.
 
Of course the list is long on the mishandling of evidence.

The absence of any "missing evidence" means nothing when you have a severely mishandled crime scene, for example, computer experts who ruin several hard drives and <enter long list of other mishandled items here...semen stain...stomache contents>

I doubt they looked very hard for anyone else.


Personally, I think the prosecution and early helpers were fooled by Rudy Guede. What if all of this is ongoing because Mignini is nothing but a fool, and the system blindly supported him.

Then the PGP believe in the Mignini Religion, because they trust that the polizia and forensic team must be correct because they have specialists like Edgardo Giobbi, Computer Experts, and Stefonani.

A castle full of fools, maybe? Rudy Guede fooled them all and will be out laughing soon enough at the Clown Cops who weren't smart enough to run the investigation or count tennis shoeprint circles.


In my opinion, there's an extremely simple and entirely plausible reason for the whole debacle. It's as follows: Mignini and the state police were under massive pressure to be speedy and competent in investigating this murder - and, probably even more importantly, to be seen to be speedy and competent.

And that (in my view) was due to two major reasons: firstly, this was by some distance the most high-profile "whodunnit" serious crime that the Perugia authorities had faced in many years* (maybe decades) - it had an international aspect, a "beautiful young exchange student brutally killer in her own home" aspect; the international media were pouring into Perugia in droves as a result, and they were all looking directly at Mignini and the Perugia police for answers. And secondly, I don't think we should underestimate the fact that the authorities had totally botched another not-dissimilar (but much lower-profile) murder almost exactly a year previously, and had been roundly criticised for their incompetence and mismanagement.

I think all of the above (and the asterisk point below) led the authorities to rush to judgement. They quite clearly (in my view) developed severe tunnel vision and confirmation bias within even hours of the discovery of the body. By the 5th November, I believe that the tunnel vision and confirmation bias - aided and abetted by some undoubtedly unorthodox behaviour from Knox - had manifested themselves in what the authorities clearly (and vocally) considered to be a cast-iron theory which "solved" the murder. They coerced Knox into "confirming" their theory. They all slapped themselves heartily on the back for a "job well done", and basked in the superficial adulation of the world's media and the Perugia public.

After all that, I think it was nothing more complicated than a combination of personal hubris, authority groupthink, and an institutional circling-of-the-wagons once large holes began to appear in the "theory". I think they were all more than reluctant to admit that they'd got it wrong, for fear of being once more labelled incompetent and unreliable. And from then on..... QED.


* Add to this the complicating factor that it was the State Police who - by happenstance - were the body leading the investigation, rather than the Carabinieri, who were the normal "go to" police force for serious crimes such as this one, and who were undoubtedly much more used to - and equipped for - investigations of this nature. I believe that, as a result, the State Police very likely felt they had something to prove in the way they handled the Kercher investigation, and that this added further to the refusal to admit (or even understand) that their original (Nov 6th) theory of the crime was totally wrong.
 
If you talk about the Scazzi case, well, there is a bit to say about factual details beyond what is said by Nadeau and RoseMontague.

At the end, Sabrina and Cosima were sentenced to life by a judges panel leaded by to women. I would be cautious before labelling leading woman judges as "mysoginistic".

Violence against women exists as a common criminal phenomenon, but I fail to see any connection between this and guilt or innocence of Misseri. These rationalizations/connections are kind of anthropologic dietrologia, really bad stuff.

Still waiting (since April) for the motivation. Must be having a hard time explaining how they could be possibly found guilty...

Oggi la giustizia italiana, ultima in Europa e in caduta libera nel pianeta, ancora una volta ha perso. Oggi nessuno ha vinto e di certo nessuno vincerà in futuro: quando dopo altri anni passati in carcere, al dolore già accumulato si sarà sommato altro dolore e lacrime. E nessuno si azzardi a dire che Sarah ha avuto Giustizia. La Giustizia è un'altra cosa. La Giustizia ha il sapore dolce e non lascia il gusto amaro di odio fermentato da un mosto senza zucchero. A Taranto oggi ha vinto l'odio, quello generato da chi ha raccontato un'altra storia, quello recepito da chi ha ascoltato un'altra storia... una storia senza senso, una storia infarcita da testimonianze indecenti e mille dubbi. E come dall'odio non può nascere mai la giustizia, così dai dubbi non si potrà mai estrarre la giusta verità...

http://albatros-volandocontrovento.blogspot.com/2013/04/sabrina-misseri-e-cosima-serrano.html
 
It was disproven by Quintavalle, who saw Knox before his store, while the claim that other employees denied what he saw or that he himself allegedly contradicted it, is absolutely false. Those you tell about Quintavalle are lies, there are transcripts to show that.

Citation or it's false. The various people who post under the Machiavelli name have not exactly been reliable sources on matters of fact, sorry.

The last time I had this conversation with Machiavelli it ended here...

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=107150#p107150

I have never seen anyone twist themselves into knots like this trying to explain away this testimony and then have the nerve to actually say the testimony says something that it does not.
 
Don't be absurd. I can't believe you even wrote that. It's like saying George Zimmerman can't be racist because he's part Hispanic.

The judges I mentioned are not "part" women.
There are maybe women who are mysoginistic, jews who are anti-semitic, blacks who are white supremacists, etc. But there are few of them, this is why I would be cautious, unless I have proof I would start from the presumption that women are not mysoginistic, that jews are not anti-semitic, that non-whites are not white supremacists.

Also, the "I would be cautious" part sounds more like Quennell, The Machine, McCall or Ergon than like Machiavelli. Empty threats that low-intellect dingbats have convinced themselves will instill fear in others

Caution is a word that all scientists and rational people love. It is not something only related to threats. It is related to humilty and intellectual honesty.
 
Yumi will tell you below... NO! It is impossible for Mignini to do this in RG case. BUTT...He will ignore the fact that both Comode and Mignini were a part of the prosecution team for the appeal of AK and RS. And they asked for additional time in jail to be increased to life on prison plus a long long stretch of solitary...and why? Because of nothing! (...)

Because AK and RS got their mitigation on the first instance.
The prosecution asked for the maximum exactly how they did with Guede.
The difference is, with Gude they won.

A fast track trial IS NOT guaranteed. This is a lie of Yummi.(...)

One of your usual wild rants?
Prove it.

You state my assertion is a lie: just prove it.

I state you are lying instead.

Le't's see who's right.
 
The judges I mentioned are not "part" women.
There are maybe women who are mysoginistic, jews who are anti-semitic, blacks who are white supremacists, etc. But there are few of them, this is why I would be cautious, unless I have proof I would start from the presumption that women are not mysoginistic, that jews are not anti-semitic, that non-whites are not white supremacists.

What grade are you in? Be honest.

Caution is a word that all scientists and rational people love. It is not something only related to threats. It is related to humilty and intellectual honesty.

Unless I have proof I would start from the presumption that scientists and rational people do not love the word caution.
 
(...)
Unless I have proof I would start from the presumption that scientists and rational people do not love the word caution.

You have abundant proof. If sicientists didn't love caution, doctors would deliver diagnoses randomly without any chacks and non-experimented medicaments would be prescribed as a play. You would have buildings built without mathematical calculations and free-hand-designed aircrafts. You would have scientific literature written as a science-fiction guess drawing conclusions without any data to back it.
 
The last time I had this conversation with Machiavelli it ended here...

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=107150#p107150

I have never seen anyone twist themselves into knots like this trying to explain away this testimony and then have the nerve to actually say the testimony says something that it does not.

People claiming that Quintavalle + Chiriboga say things they do not say, and who deny Quintavalle says the things he actually says, those people are actually BW (in the post above) and all innocentisti who believe like him.
 
As for the truth about the fast track trial:

The fast track trial is a guaranteed option. Prosecution and judge cannot object to it.

The request for a fast track can be rejected by the judge only under the provision of paragraph 5 of art. 438, that is if the defendant puts some conditions (further requests) which the judge deems unnecessary to for the trial.
But if the judge rejects the request under provision of §5, the defendants has the right to make the proposal again, without those conditions or with different (acceptable) conditions.
Once §5 is complied with, nor the judge nor the prosecution can reject a request for fast track trial.

Once, in the early nineties, in the code there was still an option for the prosecution to object the request. But the option was removed from the code by the Constitutional Court.
 
Hard to say for certain as they did not get a DNA reference sample from Filomena or Laura and there were some DNA samples that were unidentified (and most likely more than what Stefi reported).

Agreed in general. When did they take the reference samples for Amanda and Raf?

Did the defense ever request the reference samples be taken or make an issue out of the unidentified DNA and prints outside of the bra clasp?
 
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