Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RandyN]

Breaking news! New photo discovered of Knox at the Questora...or was this right after putting on crime scene booties?

 

[Machiavelli]

The length is completely off though so all this width stuff doesn't even matter, really.

Well, I understand all positions expressed. I think they offer legitimate interpretations. However, they are also subjective.
Those thinking their interpretation (for example of the "square" drop, or blade orientation) is obvious and absolute, are not applying logic completely.
There are several other small drops and marks, as well as their alignement, which may be "happy to be explained"; and the "squared" mark might be not "representing" something as some people may guess, but has maybe some other "geometric" explanation.

When I say that believing some interpretations ot be absolute is a lack of "complete" logic, here "complete logic" I think could mean "an explanation that tends to explain all marks", or most.

It is not granted that the blade must have one particular orientation and position. It might have other orientations.

My speculation: is just a guess about kind of knife, blade orientation etc. not intended to be "absolute", I mean it's not necessarily the correct one. However I think it is possible, that it is plausible. I think there is something interesting in considering this hypotheses, because it explains a pretty good number of marks and drops.
And it shows why I think the stain could be considered "compatible" with the kitchen knife.
The superimposition picture shows how I think our specific knife can be considered compatible with the bed sheet print.

Below is how I envision the superimposition.

 

[RandyN]

The length is completely off though so all this width stuff doesn't even matter, really.

That's what she always says!!!

Seriously though Yummi/Macs argument is idiotic. Not even in court did they attempt to do what he now is trying to pull over everyones eyes...there is a superimposed image from years ago that clearly shows the kitchen knife is not close to being compatable. The prosecution never attempted to make this comparison because it wasnt even close...if in fact the new prosecutor is attempting to do this in court then he is introducing new evidence which hopefully he had the brains to disclose to the court and the defense first. Any bets on that one?

Yummi....can you add some small arrows? That always makes your presentations even more ridiclous...errr clear.

 

[davefoc]

...
Below is how I envision the superimposition.

 

[Bill Williams]

Well, I understand all positions expressed. I think they offer legitimate interpretations. However, they are also subjective.
Those thinking their interpretation (for example of the "square" drop, or blade orientation) is obvious and absolute, are not applying logic completely.

<..... sinister deletia .....>

Below is how I envision the superimposition.

Yours is the most "subjective" of all. You wouldn't need to be talking about this if the RIS Carabinieri hadn't removed the DNA evidence as actual evidence. This is a desperate try at getting that knife back into the case....

.... or else you'll have to admit that the wild hunch that put this knife into the case was part of the wrongful conviction - as well as the last 6 years of unjust vilification of innocents.

 

[Machiavelli]

Yours is the most "subjective" of all. You wouldn't need to be talking about this if the RIS Carabinieri hadn't removed the DNA evidence as actual evidence. This is a desperate try at getting that knife back into the case....
(...)

Wait a few months and see if the RIS did actually "remove" anything...
But don't draw the discussion OT now, meanwhile.

 

[Grinder]

.
And it shows why I think the stain could be considered "compatible" with the kitchen knife.
The superimposition picture shows how I think our specific knife can be considered compatible with the bed sheet print.

Once again it seems we have a cultural chasm so great that understanding your thinking is nearly impossible. The ISC motivation indicates that it isn't just you.

The bloody "outline" using your techniques would be compatible with tens of thousands of knives in Perugia. This is like the footprints being compatible with Amanda's feet.

This whole concept of "osmotic" in this case is baffling. The ISC says that pieces of "evidence" can not be looked at one at a time, but rather all compatibles must be taken together, even if none of them stand up to reasonable scrutiny. I'm surprised that the smudged fingerprints aren't also on the list of compatibles.

Even if this colossal waste of time actually came to the valid conclusion that the print could be made by the kitchen knife, that adds not an iota to the case against Amanda and Raf. How many of the knives from the cottage, upstairs and downstairs, are compatible with the outline?

How many feet in Perugia are compatible with the luminol prints?

Compatible just isn't a high enough standard for legal work.

 

[Bill Williams]

Wait a few months and see if the RIS did actually "remove" anything...
But don't draw the discussion OT now, meanwhile.

I fully concede that the Italian courts are setting dangerous precedents in the interpretation of DNA. What you are referring to is not the RIS Carabinieri but the way Nencini might or might not interpret it.

If it is anything remotely used to convict the pair, then you, yourself, and ALL Italians are in danger of the next court which will use this as a precedent. That part is unarguable.

 

[moodstream]

Well, I understand all positions expressed. I think they offer legitimate interpretations. However, they are also subjective.
Those thinking their interpretation (for example of the "square" drop, or blade orientation) is obvious and absolute, are not applying logic completely.
There are several other small drops and marks, as well as their alignement, which may be "happy to be explained"; and the "squared" mark might be not "representing" something as some people may guess, but has maybe some other "geometric" explanation.

When I say that believing some interpretations ot be absolute is a lack of "complete" logic, here "complete logic" I think could mean "an explanation that tends to explain all marks", or most.

It is not granted that the blade must have one particular orientation and position. It might have other orientations.

My speculation: is just a guess about kind of knife, blade orientation etc. not intended to be "absolute", I mean it's not necessarily the correct one. However I think it is possible, that it is plausible. I think there is something interesting in considering this hypotheses, because it explains a pretty good number of marks and drops.
And it shows why I think the stain could be considered "compatible" with the kitchen knife.
The superimposition picture shows how I think our specific knife can be considered compatible with the bed sheet print.

Below is how I envision the superimposition.

Thank for saying it's just a guess. And Happy Holidays. Howver, I don't beleve you have shown the stain to be compatable with the knife. The reason is, when I look at the stain or stains, I see to places that seem to represent the tip of a knife. These two spots more or less look like each other. One of these has a somewhat distinct mark for where a blade would be that points towards terminating in the big rectangular spotch.

I believe that when the scientific police and the defense experts are refering to the knifeprint found on the bed sheet, it is to these points to which they refer.

On the other hand, you have found two distinctly seprated splatters of blood near the imprint on the sheet that have a distince from each other of about 30 mm. This was as close as you could come to matching the imprints that are being referred to in court. But without a doubt you are not referring to the same imprints. Yours superimpostion does not align with those imprints at all, is substantially to long, and is just fractionally to narrow ( meaning to make it exact, the knifes end would have to be extended more).

As a result, these are two different topics. Can the imprints that seem to be of a knife found on the bedsheet be the from the knife found in Sollecito's kitchen drawer. The answer is no. Definately no. Absolutely no.

Can you find splotches of blood about 30 mm apart on the bedsheet and then superimpose Sollecito's knife in a way that runs towards other splotches of blood? Yes. Can you do this in the gerneral area where the knife imprint was found. Yes.

However, the knife imprint referred to in the court testimony and your knife superimpostion are tow completely unrelated items. You cannot say the Sollecito's knife is compatable with the knife prints outlined on the bed sheets because that outline differs greatly from the trace over of your superimposed image.

 

[moodstream]

two/too/to/tow - sorry

 

[Ogantai]

The bloody "outline" using your techniques would be compatible with tens of thousands of knives in Perugia.

Not only knives, any broad flat object could leave a mark like that. Playing connect the dots with these low res third-hand pictures is like arguing over whether a particular cloud looks more like a sheep or dog: it tells us more about the writers imagination than it does about the facts of the case. People have been going round and round for 10(?) pages now about what sort of knife could have made these marks, and for all we know it could be a gardening tool, an entrenching shovel, a putty spatula, or maybe it's just a bunch of splotches and smears. (It could even have been a mason's trowel, but don't tell Mach or he might try to link the murder to Hellman! )

 

[davefoc]

Not only knives, any broad flat object could leave a mark like that. Playing connect the dots with these low res third-hand pictures is like arguing over whether a particular cloud looks more like a sheep or dog: it tells us more about the writers imagination than it does about the facts of the case. People have been going round and round for 10(?) pages now about what sort of knife could have made these marks, and for all we know it could be a gardening tool, an entrenching shovel, a putty spatula, or maybe it's just a bunch of splotches and smears. (It could even have been a mason's trowel, but don't tell Mach or he might try to link the murder to Hellman! )

Below is how I envision the superimposition:


Notice the way the hat is an almost perfect match with the rectangular blob that some people think might have been made by a knife handle. Also note that what look like the dots that define the top edge of the knife to some people look more like Frosty's earring on his right ear.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Thank for saying it's just a guess. And Happy Holidays. Howver, I don't beleve you have shown the stain to be compatable with the knife. The reason is, when I look at the stain or stains, I see to places that seem to represent the tip of a knife. These two spots more or less look like each other. One of these has a somewhat distinct mark for where a blade would be that points towards terminating in the big rectangular spotch.

Indeed, he's using cast off stains to mark his edge, and leaving a contact stain with an edge line stranded in the middle.

IMO he's over-thinking this problem. He's trying to make Crini's verbal diarrhea line up with facts. He'd be better off to take the position of the court, which is that they will accuse and convict whoever they want, and facts don't matter.

 

[Ogantai]

Below is how I envision the superimposition.

Notice the way the hat is an almost perfect match with the rectangular blob that some people think might have been made by a knife handle. Also note that what look like the dots that define the top edge of the knife to some people look more like Frosty's earring on his right ear.

That's certainly "compatible" with the markings, but personally I think they were originally pasta sauce. That the spots were tested and found to be blood leaves us with only one suspect: the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Surely he floated through Filomena's window and slayed MK in some sort of Halloween-related ritual, and that the pasta stains later transubstantiated to blood (a thing ~90% of Italians actually believe in) is only further proof that His Noodley Appendage was "compatible" with events on that fateful night.

 

[Samson]

Below is how I envision the superimposition:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/56652bb57674fcc7.jpg[/qimg]

Notice the way the hat is an almost perfect match with the rectangular blob that some people think might have been made by a knife handle. Also note that what look like the dots that define the top edge of the knife to some people look more like Frosty's earring on his right ear.

To settle this here is a link to the duck rabbit illusion.
PGP see ducks, PIP see rabbits.
(or is it the other way round?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPCoe-6RRks

 

[acbytesla]

The length is completely off though so all this width stuff doesn't even matter, really.

Well, the reality is the width isn't what Mach says it is as well. Mach really is doing is creative Photoshop work. In particular the top line he draws the top of the knife. There isn't a distinct line at the top where he is drawing the line only a few blood drops.

What is far more telling is the point and curve of the knife blade is very different and inside the Yummi's artwork.

Below is the knife stain left on the Meredith's bed. The dark line around the outside is the arbitrary line drawn by Machiavelli. I put little yellow dots around the actual knife edges. As you can see the knife is much, much smaller.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Well, the reality is the width isn't what Mach says it is as well. Mach really is doing to creative Photoshop work. In particular the top line of the knife. there isn't a distinct line at the top where he is drawing the line only a few blood drops.

What is far more telling is the point and curve of the knife blade is very different and inside the Yummi's artwork.

Below is the knife stain left on the Meredith's bed. The dark line around the outside is the arbitrary line drawn by Machiavelli. I put little yellow dots around the actual knife edges. As you can see the knife is much much smaller.

[qimg]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1Ls_Mz43xv4/UrtjAZljOCI/AAAAAAAAALE/5__XqzOwdtc/s1600/Knife+stain3.jpg[/qimg]

Thanks for this: It really is a piece of clarification.

 

[Strozzi]

Breaking news! New photo discovered of Knox at the Questora...or was this right after putting on crime scene booties?

The camera caught her upside down, right in the middle of the summersault!

 

[MichaelB]

http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-conten...onacchia-Lombardo-Tavernese-Fazio-Galizia.pdf

Witness: Maria Dramis

Mignini

Lived at Via del Melo number 12 for 10 years and was a student and can see the cottage roof from her place.

Went to the movies Nov 1 and then went to bed around 11pm. Heard footsteps under her window around 11.30pm

Doesn't know if it was just one person or a few people.

Maresca

No questions

Maori

Hearing footsteps is normal and usual thing but mainly during the day.

Rocchi

She was tired of the journalists who'd been trying to get her to say other things.

She and her sister went over the night of the murder together trying to remember things and agree they heard them but never spoke on the night about them.

DEFENSE - AVV. THE WIDOW Who is this?

The journalists contacting her were Castellini and Fois who told her they were conducting an investigation and it was because of them they went to the prosecutor to report the noises. The journalists accompanied the sisters to the prosecutors office.

She followed the media in the beginning but not so much now.

Her sister saw a parked car and they spoke about it.

DR COMFORTABLE

The noise she heard was a usual sound.

It was because of the journalists that the sisters tried to remember what they heard.

 

[RandyN]

The camera caught her upside down, right in the middle of the summersault!

If you look very closely I think they caught her right in the middle part of a cartwheel in this photo (imagine a clockwise motion). But perhaps she is simply doing a headstand...hard to tell since her arms are so short... because, she may be doing an actual hand stand which is much harder...(looks like a one-hander too) Why is she smiling? What is she hiding under that scarf?

I wonder why Rita Fucara thought cartwheels were somehow inappropriate but then she felt that striking someone (twice) in the head is perfectly OK? Do Italians regularly physically assault each other? Is that so routine that the police feel no compunction at utilizing corporal punishment as a normal behavior during interrogation?

This undeniably has to be the truth since even 6 years later no one in Italy has even bothered to investigate this physical attack. In fact a reporter asked the prosecutors office if they would be investigating this crime (the police brutality) and oddly they said no and then in what has to be the stupidest most corrupt action possible the prosecutors office proceeded to charge the victim with a crime, meanwhile ignoring obvious police abuse...to not even investigate??? What are they doing in Italy?