Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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No. The Trvthers are the ones making the extraordinary claim (i.e., that Jesus did not exist). They make this claim in the face of almost all scholarly opinion and almost all accepted historical evidence. They are the ones who need to provide the extraordinary evidence for their claim. Evidence would be something like the names of the people who forged the early Christian works, some plausible motive for their doing so, a late carbon date for an alleged "early" papyrus, etc.



Completely untrue (and for the 100th time!) - most sceptics here are NOT claiming Jesus did not exist.

Please quote wherever I said Jesus could never have existed.



Ps- and incidentally, if you are talking about what dejudge has said, then (a)make your accusations directly to him (and not to me), and (b)what dejudge has consistently explained to you in microscopic detail, it that he says the “biblical Jesus of Nazareth” could not exist as a real human.
 
No. The Trvthers are the ones making the extraordinary claim (i.e., that Jesus did not exist). They make this claim in the face of almost all scholarly opinion and almost all accepted historical evidence. They are the ones who need to provide the extraordinary evidence for their claim. Evidence would be something like the names of the people who forged the early Christian works, some plausible motive for their doing so, a late carbon date for an alleged "early" papyrus, etc.

IOW there's no amount of data that would convince you, even if someone met your impossible conditions you just think up more.
 
Well there most certainly IS a requirement if biblical scholars wish to claim (as they do) that Jesus existed and that, as Bart Ehrman and others claim (Ehrman actually says "almost every properly trained scholar on the planet agrees with him"), that the evidence makes it "certain".

So those bible scholars, and anyone here who says Jesus was more likely than not, most certainly DO have that requirement to produce the evidence to support their beliefs.

But sceptics who simply ask for a clear elucidation of what the claimed evidence is supposed to be, most definitely do not have any such obligation to invent any myth theory.

So those two positions are most definitely not equal.
My comment was confined to members of the forum.
I don't require folks to present anthropological outlines and evidences, because I full well first hand know what that entails and how much hard work that is to engage with.

I only mention that having even a basic proposal, however, even if only from reasoning, would help the denial claims as the anthropological outlines are fairly good at bringing reasonable context to a position if such material is available to work from.
 
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Completely untrue (and for the 100th time!) - most sceptics here are NOT claiming Jesus did not exist.

Please quote wherever I said Jesus could never have existed.



Ps- and incidentally, if you are talking about what dejudge has said, then (a)make your accusations directly to him (and not to me), and (b)what dejudge has consistently explained to you in microscopic detail, it that he says the “biblical Jesus of Nazareth” could not exist as a real human.

I am sorry if I misattributed a position to you.

If by "the biblical Jesus of Nazareth could not have existed as a real human" dejudge means that Jesus didn't walk on water, raise the dead, turn water into wine, or feed 5,000 people with five loaves and two fish, I'll agree with him. There's plenty of patent nonsense in the New Testament.

However, I think it is entirely plausible, in fact likely, that an itinerant Jewish preacher named Jesus existed, and that this preacher got himself crucified for sedition. He wouldn't have been the first, or the last for that matter. What separated him from the others was his loyal little band of followers who took it on themselves to preach in his name.
 
And timing, jhunter, a huge amount of timing.
People wanted a super hero made out of someone, anyone.
 
No. The Trvthers are the ones making the extraordinary claim (i.e., that Jesus did not exist). They make this claim in the face of almost all scholarly opinion and almost all accepted historical evidence. They are the ones who need to provide the extraordinary evidence for their claim. Evidence would be something like the names of the people who forged the early Christian works, some plausible motive for their doing so, a late carbon date for an alleged "early" papyrus, etc.
That's not an extraordinary claim, that Jesus did not exist. Good try though. By the way, since you seem to love to use Trvthers, what name have you dreamt up for your side? Hopefully, it's as full of snide as Trvthers is.
 
That is precisely what I did not say. I did not say the word ChrEstians was a forgery

I said Tacitus Annals with [CHRISTUS was unknown up to the 5th century.
That is, No Christian writer, not even the supposed Eusebius, used Tacitus Annals to argue that the Christ had already come.

Tacitus Annals with CHRISTUS is a very late forgery.

When the History of the Church was written Tacitus Annals with "Christus" was not yet forged.

Eusebius used the Forgery in the TF in Antiquities of the Jews--never Tacitus Annals.

Justin did NOT use Tacitus Annals with Christus to argue that the Christ had already come.

Tertullian who was aware of the writings of Cornelius Tacitus in his Apology also did not used Tacitus Annals with Christus to prove the Christ had already come.

Origen did NOT use Tacitus Annals with Christus to argue that the Christ had already come.

According to this site the earliest copy known of the Annals dates from 850. Therefore, there's no way to prove whether or not the reference to Christus was a later forgery. There would be no particular reason for any of the writers you mention to use Tacitus' mention of Christ as proof of his existence.

You have exposed the fundamental problem for the History of the Church--the people referred to as Christians were really called ChrEstians in Tacitus and had nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus of Nazareth.

So, why did Tertullian say that Chrestians was a mispronunciation of Christians? Who do you think the Chrestians of Tacitus were, and why were they so easily scapegoated?

Perhaps you have not read the NT or do not understand it . The NT is fundamentally anti-Jewish propaganda.

Once again, your arrogance and contempt for those who disagree with you is showing. Of course, I've read the NT. Yes, it's anti-Jewish propaganda is impossible to miss.

I will now show you the evidence.

First you must remember that Jesus is God himself in gJohn.

Jesus, God Creator is talking to Jews.

Examine gJohn.

John 8:44 KJV

The author of gJohn is hardly likely to be a Jew when he put words in the mouth of his GOD Jesus saying that the father of the Jews is a Devil, a Murderer and a Liar.

The Jesus story is openly of non-Jewish origin.

Yes, the gospels, all of which were written after CE 70, were written by non-Jews. You may be surprised to know that I knew of this long before I was aware of your existence.

. . . (snip) . . .

It is already known why the authors of the Jesus story claimed he was born in Bethlehem it was because of supposed prophecies in the Sepuagint.
The author of gMatthew directed his readers to the very passage in Micah 5.2

Matthew 2

Micah 5:2 KJV

So, why would a totally non-Jewish sect, one that had nothing to do with Judaism, find it important to have their Christ identified with a Jew who had to fulfill Jewish prophecies? You still haven't explained why this non-Jewish sect would go out of its way to adopt Jewish associations.

The Jesus story is indeed fictional even if you remove Nazareth and replace it with Bethlehem. or vice versa.

1.Jesus was born of a Ghost in Bethlehem.

2. Jesus was born of a Ghost in Nazareth.

Once again, I reiterate that I do NOT accept the gospels as history. I have stated repeatedly that they are fictions based on a mix of material from four sources: the Jewish scriptures, Jewish apocalyptic belief, pagan myth, Greek literature. Is it finally beginning to sink in that I am NOT arguing for the validity of the gospels?

Your methodology is extremely strange. Convoluted explanations of a fiction birth narrative where Jesus was born of a Ghost makes it likely Jesus was a figure of history??

Okay, let's go through it one more time. If you're making up a character out of whole cloth, and he's supposed to come from Bethlehem, you just have him born in and come from Bethlehem. You don't have to explain why he came from Galilee but really came from Bethlehem, because, since you are making him up, he didn't come from Galilee. Got it?

Why didn't Paul call it hallucinations? The Pauline Corpus is a product of hallucinations ---NOT history.

The question I've hilited has to be one of the more bizarre ones I've come across. People hallucinating usually don't see their hallucinations as such.

We know that Paul was not in the real world when he wrote about Jesus--He was in cloud cuckoo land.

That is precisely what I've been arguing. So, are you now saying that you accept that Paul was areal person and that he wrote Galatians, in which he claims his knowledge of Jesus comes from a direct revelation (what we today would call a hallucination)?

. . .(snip) . . .

That is exactly what a forger would do. A forger would want late writings to be accepted as early writings by inserting information to make them appear to be early.

Why do you think all the Gospels appear to end at the time of Pilate?

Why do you think the authors of the Gospels make it appear that they wrote while the Temple was still standing ?

I hope you aware that the Gospels are forgeries written well after c 70 CE.

Of course, the gospels were written as if to appear to have been written before the destruction of the Temple for the purpose of having Jesus "foretell" its destruction. Paul's mention of the congregation in Jerusalem doesn't fall into that category.

Concerning the hilited area: Once again, I have repeatedly stated that the gospels had to have been written after CE 70, and did so well before I heard from you. You either have ignored what I've written or are being deliberately insulting.

If the forgeries were so crude how is it that non-apologetic writers did not expose them. It took hundreds of years before it was discovered that the Pauline Corpus is a product of multiple authors--perhaps as much as 7 authors.

Up until the Enlightenment, it was often a death sentence to suggest that the Bible, OT or NT, was anything but the word of God. For example, Spinoza had to deal with attempts on is life for suggesting that the Torah wasn't written by Moses.

If you can't see how crude those forgeries are are, you're not looking.

You must believe the Bible is a source of history for your Jesus or else you will be devastated. Ironically, Christians believe the Bible is a source of history for the same reason.

Essentialy, your Jesus is a Jesus of Faith.

Strangely enough, I don't believe in the Bible and yet, I am not devastated.

Again, the Jesus I posit as a very minor messianic pretender to whom myths accrued is not the Jesus of the gospels. He is, in fact, very little different from whatever military leader led a resistance to the Anglo-Saxon invaders and served as the source of the Arthurian legends. In the case of Arthur, the person, who may have been borne that name as either a title or sobriquet, may have been Ambrosius Aurelianus, or he may have been a composite of different characters. My saying that there was a Jesus - or a composite of different people - to whom accrued a body of myth and messianic expectation is no more than that, and is hardly a Jesus of faith.
 
That's not an extraordinary claim, that Jesus did not exist. Good try though. By the way, since you seem to love to use Trvthers, what name have you dreamt up for your side? Hopefully, it's as full of snide as Trvthers is.

You ignored the very next sentence, in which I explained just why the claim that Jesus did not exist is extraordinary; that is, almost all historians and scholars of antiquities, both Biblical and non-biblical, accept that such a person did, indeed, exist. That does not imply, by any means, that those historians and scholars accept that Jesus was the Son of God (no matter how much dejudge would like it to).

TimCallahan articulated the HJ position quite well:

Again, the Jesus I posit as a very minor messianic pretender to whom myths accrued is not the Jesus of the gospels. He is, in fact, very little different from whatever military leader led a resistance to the Anglo-Saxon invaders and served as the source of the Arthurian legends. In the case of Arthur, the person, who may have been borne that name as either a title or sobriquet, may have been Ambrosius Aurelianus, or he may have been a composite of different characters. My saying that there was a Jesus - or a composite of different people - to whom accrued a body of myth and messianic expectation is no more than that, and is hardly a Jesus of faith.

And it's up to those who don't support the existence of a historical Jesus to come up with a snide nickname for those who do.
 
I think the point was that Pliny's letter simply describes his dealings with the followers of some Christ...a title not a name. If could be Jesus...or some other person who (or whose followers) used that title. I should mention that by the time of Pliny's letter you had at least 13 possible candidates other then Jesus to choose from for "Christ".

In fact, "(t)he Bible uses the term "christ" or "messiah" for a variety of figures, including all of the high priests and kings of ancient Israel" (Wright, Stuart A. (1995) Armageddon in Waco University of Chicago Press pg 296)

To say Pliny's letter must refer to Jesus is to ignore historical reality.

It's almost like that joke at the end of Napoleon Bunny-Part:

Hey Romaus, here is another Christ. That's the twelfth one today.

I'm curious about one thing. Why do you suppose Pliny was putting these Christians to death? It appears to be because of disloyalty to the empire and its imperial cult. Pliny says that when people accused of being Christians deny that they are, he has them demonstrate their innocence of the charge by not only cursing Christ, but by offering incense to the image of the emperor as a living god.

Offering token worship to the emperor doesn't seem to have been a problem for the worshippers of Isis and Osiris, Atargatis, Cybele and Attys, Dionysus, Mithra or any other of the cults that grew up in the Roman Empire and were reviled by the likes of Tacitus. I don't know what the Gnostic Christians, those that Irenaeus railed against, did regarding burning incense to the emperor, but they don't seem to have been big on getting themselves martyred.

The Christians Pliny refers to seem to have been obdurate and willing to go to their deaths for a belief that seems to involve a monotheistic worship that would forbid offering incense as a token sacrifice to the emperor.
 
I think the point was that Pliny's letter simply describes his dealings with the followers of some Christ...a title not a name. If could be Jesus...or some other person who (or whose followers) used that title. I should mention that by the time of Pliny's letter you had at least 13 possible candidates other then Jesus to choose from for "Christ". ...

Thanks for that data, maximara.



... I think it is entirely plausible, in fact likely, that an itinerant Jewish preacher named Jesus existed, and that this preacher got himself crucified for sedition. ...

And based on your opinion of that plausibility, even probability, it's acceptable for a moderator at the JREF to call those members of the forum who opine differently, Trvthers?
 
According to this site the earliest copy known of the Annals dates from 850. Therefore, there's no way to prove whether or not the reference to Christus was a later forgery. There would be no particular reason for any of the writers you mention to use Tacitus' mention of Christ as proof of his existence.

The earliest manuscripts of the Jesus story are in the 2nd century so you might as well forget about arguing for an HJ who supposedly lived up to the time of Pilate or Claudius.

By the way, you have admitted that you use Tacitus' Annals to argue for an historical Jesus when you knew in advance of posting that earliest copy dates from 850 CE.

Don't you realize that you have no way of proving that Tacitus' Annals with Christus was known before c 850 CE?

Tacitus' Annals with Christus may indeed have been interpolated c 850CE because it was unknown by Apologetics.

Examine an excerpt of your own post.

Tim Callahan said:
....I'm inclined to believe there was a historic person, an apocalyptic rabbi and messianic pretender named Jesus, about whom we have only two non-Christian references, both of which are passing allusions. These are the material on the execution of James by Josephus in the Antiquites and the mention of Christ by Tacitus in the Annals. We've brought up a number of reasons in this thread why the first is somewhat suspect.

Please, show that Tacitus' Annals 15.44 contained the name Christus before the 4th century.

You will NEVER find a Christian source of antiquity that used Tacitus' Annals with Christus to claim Jesus did exist---Christian writers used the forgery called the TF found in Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 for hundreds of years.

Tacitus' Annals with Christus is a very very late forgery perhaps no earlier than c 850 CE.
 
Thanks for that data, maximara.





And based on your opinion of that plausibility, even probability, it's acceptable for a moderator at the JREF to call those members of the forum who opine differently, Trvthers?

Maybe he is sick of being accused of being a "Closet Fundie"...
 
Again, the Jesus I posit as a very minor messianic pretender to whom myths accrued is not the Jesus of the gospels. He is, in fact, very little different from whatever military leader led a resistance to the Anglo-Saxon invaders and served as the source of the Arthurian legends. In the case of Arthur, the person, who may have been borne that name as either a title or sobriquet, may have been Ambrosius Aurelianus, or he may have been a composite of different characters. My saying that there was a Jesus - or a composite of different people - to whom accrued a body of myth and messianic expectation is no more than that, and is hardly a Jesus of faith.

You have merely invented your own Jesus based on your imagination as predicted by Albert Schweitzer. See Albert Schweitzer's "Quest for an Historical Jesus".

The Pauline Corpus does not support your minor messianic pretender.

If Jesus was an actual known messianic pretender in the time of Pilate and was executed by the Romans then the Pauline Corpus would be known a pack of lies since 37-41 CE.

It would have made no sense at all--completely idiotic and suicidal--to tell the Romans and people of the Roman Empire that a dead minor messianic pretender was God Creator and that every one should bow to the name of Jesus.

The Pauline Corpus utterly destroys any claim that Jesus was a known man who was dead for years.

Philippians 2
9 Therefore God exalted him16 to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,17 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,18 in heaven and on earth and under the earth,19 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,20 to the glory of God the Father.

The Pauline writers would be regarded as criminals or criminally DUMB if Jesus was known to be a dead minor messianic pretender.

When did God exalt your dead messianic pretender?

And how did Paul prove the dead messianic pretender abolished the Laws of the Jews?

Galatians 5:2 NIV
Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
 
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And based on your opinion of that plausibility, even probability, it's acceptable for a moderator at the JREF to call those members of the forum who opine differently, Trvthers?

My posts in this thread are entirely "not as mod". In fact, I am not permitted by forum policy to moderate a thread in which I am participating as a member.

I use the name "Trvthers" because their style of argumentation reminds me so much of 9/11 Truthers; they simply handwave away any evidence presented that conflicts with their predetermined conclusion.
 
You ignored the very next sentence, in which I explained just why the claim that Jesus did not exist is extraordinary; that is, almost all historians and scholars of antiquities, both Biblical and non-biblical, accept that such a person did, indeed, exist. That does not imply, by any means, that those historians and scholars accept that Jesus was the Son of God (no matter how much dejudge would like it to).

TimCallahan articulated the HJ position quite well:
I did read it; there isn't that consensus that you seem to think.



And it's up to those who don't support the existence of a historical Jesus to come up with a snide nickname for those who do.
Such a spoilsport.
 
If he's sick of that, he needs to act in an adult manner. Making use of snide remarks isn't terribly adult, IMO.

Neither are arguments like these:

You have merely invented your own Jesus based on your imagination as predicted by Albert Schweitzer. See Albert Schweitzer's "Quest for an Historical Jesus".

The Pauline Corpus does not support your minor messianic pretender.

If Jesus was an actual known messianic pretender in the time of Pilate and was executed by the Romans then the Pauline Corpus would be known a pack of lies since 37-41 CE.

It would have made no sense at all--completely idiotic and suicidal--to tell the Romans and people of the Roman Empire that a dead minor messianic pretender was God Creator and that every one should bow to the name of Jesus.

The Pauline Corpus utterly destroys any claim that Jesus was a known man who was dead for years.

Philippians 2

The Pauline writers would be regarded as criminals or criminally DUMB if Jesus was known to be a dead minor messianic pretender.

When did God exalt your dead messianic pretender?

And how did Paul prove the dead messianic pretender abolished the Laws of the Jews?

Galatians 5:2 NIV

Why expect a higher standard from one side than the other?

The reasoning on display is childish.
 
The earliest manuscripts of the Jesus story are in the 2nd century so you might as well forget about arguing for an HJ who supposedly lived up to the time of Pilate or Claudius.

By the way, you have admitted that you use Tacitus' Annals to argue for an historical Jesus when you knew in advance of posting that earliest copy dates from 850 CE.

Don't you realize that you have no way of proving that Tacitus' Annals with Christus was known before c 850 CE?

Tacitus' Annals with Christus may indeed have been interpolated c 850CE because it was unknown by Apologetics.

So, shall we throw out everything else in the Annals? Shall we then throw out every transmitted document? It may be an interpolation or it may be genuine. You haven't really demonstrated any reason not to accept it as it is.

Examine an excerpt of your own post.



Please, show that Tacitus' Annals 15.44 contained the name Christus before the 4th century.

Please, show me it didn't.

You will NEVER find a Christian source of antiquity that used Tacitus' Annals with Christus to claim Jesus did exist---Christian writers used the forgery called the TF found in Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 for hundreds of years.

Again - and this is the last time I'll waste energy telling you this - there is little in Tacitus to use as a proof that Jesus was anything special, unlike the TF, which claims he was the Messiah.

Tacitus' Annals with Christus is a very very late forgery perhaps no earlier than c 850 CE.

You really have no way of proving this assertion.
 
Originally Posted by dejudge View Post
Well, the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in Judea with scrolls of the 1st century and even Before the Common Era yet we have nothing about Jesus, the 12 apostles and Paul.


...
Yes we do: Here's Jesus:
Quote:
...And as for that which He said, "that he who reads may read it speedily"

Interpreted this concerns the Teacher of Righteousness, to whom God made known all the mysteries of the words of His servants the prophets...
http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/DeadSeaScrolls/1QpHab_pesher_habakkuk.html


12 Apostles:
In the deliberative council of the community there shall be twelve laymen and three priests schooled to perfection in all that has been revealed of the entire Law. their duty shall be to set the standard for the practice of truth, righteousness and justice, and for the exercise of charity and humility in human relations; and to show how, by control of impulse and contrition of spirit, faithfulness may be maintained on earth; how, by active performance of justice and passive submission to the trials of chastisement, iniquity may be cleared, and how one can walk with all men with the quality of truth and in conduct appropriate to every occasion.

So long as these men exist in Israel, the deliberative council of the community will rest securely on a basis of truth. It will become a plant evergreen. Insofar as the laymen are concerned, it will be indeed a sanctuary; and insofar as the priesthood is concerned, it will indeed constitute the basis for a true 'holy of holies'. The members of community will be in all justice the witnesses of God's truth and the elect of His favor, effecting atonement for the earth and ensuring the requital of the wicked. They will be, indeed, a 'tested bulwark' and 'precious cornerstone' (Isaiah 28:16], which shall never be shaken or moved from their place. As for the priesthood, they shall be a seat for the holy of holies, inasmuch as all of them will then have knowledge of the Covenant of justice and all of them be qualified to offer what will be indeed 'a pleasant savor' to the Lord. And as for the laity, they will constitute a household of integrity and truth, qualified to maintain the Covenant as an everlasting pact. they shall prove acceptable to God, so that He will shrive the earth of its guilt, bring final judgment upon wickedness, and perversity shall be no more...
http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/md.htm


And Paul and his converts:

...Those that have been 'builders of the rickety wall' and 'daubers of veneer upon it'34 have never considered all this, because the man who walks in wind, who raises whirl-winds, who spouts lies-the kind of man against all of whose ilk God's wrath has always been kindled-has kept spouting at them.

Howbeit, what Moses said of old, 'Not for thy righteousness nor for the uprightness of thy heart art thou going in to possess these nations but because of His love wherewith He loved thy forefathers and because He would keep the oath' [cf. Deut. 9.5],85applies equally to those in Israel who in those latter days show repentance and eschew the way of the rabble. The same love which God showed to the men of old who pledged themselves to follow Him will He show also to their successors. The ancestral Covenant shall stand good for them.

But inasmuch as He hates and abominates all that 'build a rickety wall', His anger has been kindled against them; and all who reject His commandments and forsake them and go on walking in the stubbornness of their own hearts will be visited with such judgment as has been described...

All those that entered into the new covenant in 'the land of Damascus' but subsequently relapsed and played false and turned away from the well of living waters shall not be reckoned as of the communion of the people nor inscribed in the roster of it throughout the period from the time the teacher of the community is gathered to his rest until that in which the lay and the priestly messiah [anointed] assume their office.88

The same applies also to all that entered the company of the 'specially holy and blameless'39 but were loath to carry out the rules imposed upon the upright Every such man is, as it were, like 'one molten in the furnace' [Ezek. 22.22]. When his deeds come clearly to light, he shall be cast out of that company as being one who has no share

among the disciples of God. Men of knowledge shall reprove him according to his perfidy until he repent and thereby resume his place among the specially holy and blameless-that is, until it become clear that his actions are again in accordance with the interpretation of the Law adopted by the specially holy and blameless. Meanwhile, no man shall have commerce with him in matters either of property or of employment, for he has been cursed by all the holy ones of God on high...
http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/cd.htm

There you go, links, sources and everything.

That is my assertion. Prove me wrong*.




*This request is for dejudge, not anyone else. Especially JaysonR, Tim Callahan or Stone...:p

Still waiting for a reply to this.
 
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