• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Status
Not open for further replies.
platonov said:
So .. the victim’s family ask via their lawyer that Knox remove the link to the MK donation fund from her website – which also contains a funding link for RS.

She refuses unless the family of the woman she currently stands convicted of murdering contacts her directly.

And then later relents – presumably on advice.

How could anyone think this woman was intimately involved in the murder of MK?
Why, the very idea is absurd.
Click to expand...

Platonov, you ask above sarcastically how anyone could believe that Knox could be guilty. I could believe it if there was credible evidence.

When I first became aware of this case it was through glancing at headlines in English-language news sites. I, not having read a single sentence below the bold-type headlines, assumed that the murder had something to do with two college girls studying abroad who got in an argument over a boyfriend and one stabbed the other. Man, was I wrong.

My daughter, a U.S. college student, was then studying abroad in Florence so one evening I decided to read into the news coverage - to stop glancing at the occasional headline and actually read some paragraphs.

It took me about 30 minutes of reading to sort out who was who, who was away that night, who was this guy from the Ivory Coast, and an outline of the prosecution's case. Then I read retired FBI violent crime expert Steve Moore's first article about the case. I then looked at forensic engineer Ron Hendry's painstakingly detailed analysis of crime scene evidence. I weighed that against the screaming British and Italian newspaper stories inflaming readers about Foxy Knoxy. I read that the midnight interrogation by a dozen police was not recorded. And the Perugia police press conference where they proclaimed "Case closed" and the police chief's boast that Knox told them in interrogation what they already knew to be true. At that I realized the American student was probably being railroaded.

I will believe that Knox and Sollecito are guilty when I see credible evidence. Don't withhold machine-generated processing data. Don't trot out the heroin addict or ear-lady who belately have visions, or a storekeeper who recalls something after 8 months of encouragement by a reporter seeking a sensational story. And where are those bleach receipts? Don't dismiss the medical examiner whose autopsy convinces him that the victim's injuries are consistent with an attack by a lone attacker or several. Don't fry the defendants' computers. Don't misidentify data, times, cell towers, et al. Don't tell me that a carving knife was carried by a student in her purse for self-defense and it left no tears in the lining fabric. Don't tell me an 8" blade leaves a 5" silhouette. Don't tell me that the two defendants completely cleaned up their DNA while leaving Guede's, and did so while leaving no swirls. Don't tell me the night interrogations were not recorded. Don't lie to the court about stains being blood when confirmation tests prove they were not.

In honor of the sarcasm you exhibited in your post about Amanda hosting a link to a site in memory of her housemate and friend, and the fact that she felt she had to sadly take it down, I just made a donation to Amanda Knox's legal defense fund. I made a donation to Raffaele' legal defense fund a few days ago. I have now made about 5 donations to help defray their costs to defend themselves against the Italian state. These recent donations are my Christmas presents to myself.

The public may donate to Amanda's legal defense fund on her personal website at the following link: http://www.amandaknox.com

Raffaele's legal defense fund is at Htthttp://www.gofundme.com/3bct8o
 
Last edited:
Strozzi said:
Codyjuneau, are you aware that the police person videotaped holding the bra clasp with dirty gloves and then wiping her dirty gloved fingers over the hook in a view partially concealed from the camera is none other than Dr. Stefanoni, the police forensic scientist who analyzed the bra clasp and discovered Raffaele's DNA on the hook.
I contend that there is no way she made a special trip to Perugia to pick up this needed item to pin the crime on Raffaele and was going to do so on the oft-chance that maybe, just maybe, just little bitty maybe, it might have his DNA on it. I contend that she made certain his DNA was on it. I contend that she deliberately planted Raffaele's evidence on the bra hook between the time she first touched it and the time she analyzed it in her lab. Only she didn't count on the DNA of 3 other males to also be on the hook. So she has withheld the rest of the machine-generated data showing her analysis and she immersed the cloth and metal clasp in liquid to store it in such a way that it could not be analyzed again.
Click to expand...

I'll second that !! Theres no doubt in my mind she planted it to save the case.
 
christianahannah said:
The bra is pulled/cut apart in three different places - along the band at the hook, on both straps but at different points on each strap - one where the strap meets the band and the other where the strap loops around a plastic "o" piece.

I seem to recall, but am not 100% certain, that Meredith's shirt was still on but rolled up. I assume her arms were not out of the sleeves. If that is so one would have to cut the bra or pull it apart at the band and the two straps in order to remove it.

I wonder about the bra coming apart in the three different places that is needed in order to remove it. Don't you think cutting would have been easier than pulling?
Click to expand...


Technically it's only two places. There is a continuous stitch line from where the sholder strap meets the band down to where the clasp attaches to the band. When the attachment of the clasp to the band fails, Meredith's entire weight drops onto the left sholder strap and this one breaks at the weak point where it loops around the ring. I had searched earlier for "bra failure" and "bra repair" and found that it is quite common for bras to fail where they attach to this ring even when the bra isn't being used to support the dead weight of a body.

It's not a question of what would be easier. It's a question of what is evidenced. My discovery of this evidence and the subsequent development of the theory of how it was caused is documented in these threads.
 
platonov said:
So .. the victim’s family ask via their lawyer that Knox remove the link to the MK donation fund from her website – which also contains a funding link for RS.

She refuses unless the family of the woman she currently stands convicted of murdering contacts her directly.

And then later relents – presumably on advice.

How could anyone think this woman was intimately involved in the murder of MK?
Why, the very idea is absurd.
Click to expand...

Platonov... believe it or not, I could not care less about your opinion of Amanda Knox as a person. Heck, I really do not care what you think about me as a person. Go for it. You have a fundamental right to like or dislike whomever you please, for no other reason than that you like or dislike them.

What would be great, esp. if you're accusing someone of murder, would be to address evidence of their participation in it.

Your like or dislike for them is not evidence. No wonder guilters rarely deal with it at that level, and when they do, they write reports like Massei wrote, which offers as much reason to acquit the two as to convict them. And the convicting points Massei raises are based on probablies and assertions, mainly with no proof.

If you dislike Amanda Knox, good for you. That's your right. Where's the evidence, though, that she brought harm to Meredith Kercher?
 
Salute !

tsig said:
How many people have risked their careers and even their freedom in order to convict Amanda.

Never have so many conspired to convict so few.
Click to expand...

None ! They are applauded for their witch hunt the same as the Gestapo was applauded for taking away the Jews. It is national pride that is on the PLE side. They know there safe. An OOPS at best is what they will get for falsley prosecuting these two inside the little town of perugia.

It's Hellman and Zanneti ,C&V , and dont forget Frank Szaro who stick there necks out for justice over national pride ! Oh yeah, Hellmans jury too and a few others with the courage to stand up for whats right.
 
Last edited:
Bill Williams said:
Remember, and it needs to be stated upfront, that is (as presented to me) is unverified. So everyone has a right to mistrust this... that needs to be said right upfront.

But a source from the courtroom where Mignini was, as a defendant in the Narducci, abuse of office affair, said this. I think it was Michaeli... the same judge who had commited RS and AK to trial... said that he'd always regretted committing them to trial.

As soon as I get something that confirms this, I'll pass it on.
Click to expand...

Bill is this the same source that assured you that the recordings of Amanda's 5th interrogation existed and would be made public back in 2011?

If you are spreading this sort of inflammatory story you should reveal the source or refrain from disseminating it

charlatan said:
Now even if she were a thoughtless idiot this would have precisely zero value in determining her guilt, at least to someone with an IQ above room temperature. But I'd say she and Raffa have both been admirably patient under constant harassment and scrutiny -- certainly more patient than I would be if I had Maresca the Odious nipping at my heels.
Click to expand...

Spot on. I do think the PIP somehow can't admit that Amanda comes across as less than a dean's list student and her choice of words, well let's say they don't always make sense.

In fact, it is a little like the PGP and Curatolo. They should admit he is not credible and the PIP should admit that Amanda at best tries to use words she doesn't understand or use correctly. I can just imagine how she came across when being interviewed by the police.

The sad part is her demeanor hurts her case because many could perceive her stilted style as a cover for guilt.

platonov said:
So .. the victim’s family ask via their lawyer that Knox remove the link to the MK donation fund from her website – which also contains a funding link for RS.

She refuses unless the family of the woman she currently stands convicted of murdering contacts her directly.

And then later relents – presumably on advice.

How could anyone think this woman was intimately involved in the murder of MK?
Why, the very idea is absurd.
Click to expand...

To be sure she is not very savvy and doesn't let people give her the advice she needs, but as said before, that doesn't make her guilty or even move the needle in that direction.
 
Strozzi said:
I think I found a photo of the second murder weapon. :D

Since the bra strap was not actually cut, but rather the strap threads were severed, this is the knife that Raffaele would have had to have had with him to cut the clasp off the bra strap:
http://howdidyoumakethis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/step4a.JPG

Either that, or the threads broke from force as Rudy grabbed the bra strap near the shoulder and pulled, dragging the victim to the center of the room where he sexually assaulted her.
Click to expand...

But she was sexually haressed before the stabbing. And she was not dragged, certainly not while face-down: her body was clean on the frontal area.
The fact that the body was clean, btw, also means she was not sexually assaulted after the stabbing (or bloody hands would have likely touched her leaving prints or stains from fingers somewhere on her body).
Also the bruises on the genital area indicates that the sexual violence occurred bedore the stabbing, not after (because bruises are indicators of good enough blood pressure).
Also, the bra clasp was cut but let's leave that for later.

The bra clasp, its shoulder strap above all (but also in the inside of cups) was also soaked with blood on the right side. Whereas the major injury was on the left side.
But the left side of the bra was not soaked with blood.
It means she was wearing the bra and was still somehow in an upright position after she recived the first knife blow on the right. The blood dropped in the inside of the bra and the shoulder strap soaked, they indicate that the bra had been already losened, the clasp already cut.
Then when she received the second blow on the left, she was already in an unnatural position, with her head very close to the ground, between 40 and 60 centimeters from the floor, so kneeling down or on her four, probably with her head tilted to the left and almost facing the wall or wardrobe door, and immediately afterwards she fell on her left side (or even on her back) so that's why the left side of the bra did not get soaked.

Sorry for the graphic description above.

In other words there are no indicators of a scenario of dragging her the way you describe it and above all there are no indicators of sexually assaulting her after they inflicted the second stab wound, the one on the left of her neck.
 
Strozzi said:
(...)
It took me about 30 minutes of reading to sort out who was who, who was away that night, who was this guy from the Ivory Coast, and an outline of the prosecution's case. Then I read retired FBI violent crime expert Steve Moore's first article about the case. (...)
Click to expand...

I came across these lines. Maybe, while reading Steve Moore's first article, you may have noticed that Moore gets wrong on the roughest data, even the number of stab wounds (he said the kitchen knife was not compatible with three of the four stab wounds).
 
Machiavelli said:
In other words there are no indicators of a scenario of dragging her the way you describe it and above all there are no indicators of sexually assaulting her after they inflicted the second stab wound, the one on the left of her neck.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. What about the semen stain on the pillow under her hips? Seems strange that was not tested. Actually it is stupid.
 
Grinder said:
Spot on. I do think the PIP somehow can't admit that Amanda comes across as less than a dean's list student and her choice of words, well let's say they don't always make sense.

In fact, it is a little like the PGP and Curatolo. They should admit he is not credible and the PIP should admit that Amanda at best tries to use words she doesn't understand or use correctly. I can just imagine how she came across when being interviewed by the police.

The sad part is her demeanor hurts her case because many could perceive her stilted style as a cover for guilt.


To be sure she is not very savvy and doesn't let people give her the advice she needs, but as said before, that doesn't make her guilty or even move the needle in that direction.
Click to expand...



Dean's list... She has not used antagonized correctly. And subjugated. But I have to disagree with your "savvy" comment. I think her letter to the court for example was very well written in thought and style. You may disagree. I can say that she seems very mature for her age - unfortunately. And I say that because she has had to grow up much faster than many due to her special circumstances. Certainly much more mature than most of that age. And with regard to her misuse of words, I agree that it is surprising that someone didn't proof read for her and correct those. In light of her public position, you could argue that it is important for her to make no such mistakes. But you see the problem of course. If her emailed letter was perfect - pick your style - others would be criticizing her for not authoring her own work. As I have seen stated to some degree with her book.

What prompts me to pop up from the bleachers is, again, this oft repeated meme about her savvyness or maturity. Bunk I say. Savvy compared to what? In my book she owes no apologies. She had her youth stolen from her, and people want to criticize her for in fact being youthful. Not cool in my book.

Her demeanor is stilted? And can be seen as a cover for guilt? Please. That is a no win situation and you know that. Nothing she does will be interpreted in her favor. That is the history of this case.
 
Machiavelli said:
But she was sexually haressed before the stabbing. And she was not dragged, certainly not while face-down: her body was clean on the frontal area.
The fact that the body was clean, btw, also means she was not sexually assaulted after the stabbing (or bloody hands would have likely touched her leaving prints or stains from fingers somewhere on her body).
Also the bruises on the genital area indicates that the sexual violence occurred bedore the stabbing, not after (because bruises are indicators of good enough blood pressure).
Also, the bra clasp was cut but let's leave that for later.

The bra clasp, its shoulder strap above all (but also in the inside of cups) was also soaked with blood on the right side. Whereas the major injury was on the left side.
But the left side of the bra was not soaked with blood.
It means she was wearing the bra and was still somehow in an upright position after she recived the first knife blow on the right. The blood dropped in the inside of the bra and the shoulder strap soaked, they indicate that the bra had been already losened, the clasp already cut.
Then when she received the second blow on the left, she was already in an unnatural position, with her head very close to the ground, between 40 and 60 centimeters from the floor, so kneeling down or on her four, probably with her head tilted to the left and almost facing the wall or wardrobe door, and immediately afterwards she fell on her left side (or even on her back) so that's why the left side of the bra did not get soaked.

Sorry for the graphic description above.

In other words there are no indicators of a scenario of dragging her the way you describe it and above all there are no indicators of sexually assaulting her after they inflicted the second stab wound, the one on the left of her neck.
Click to expand...

This is not a description at all of the attack. You should refer to Ron Hendry for a professional opinion.

Failing that, you should read the Massei motivations report.

The above sounds like you watched the cartoon which made visual claims obviously not derived from evidence, but from surmises and assertions.
 
Grinder said:
Bill is this the same source that assured you that the recordings of Amanda's 5th interrogation existed and would be made public back in 2011?

If you are spreading this sort of inflammatory story you should reveal the source or refrain from disseminating it



Spot on. I do think the PIP somehow can't admit that Amanda comes across as less than a dean's list student and her choice of words, well let's say they don't always make sense.

In fact, it is a little like the PGP and Curatolo. They should admit he is not credible and the PIP should admit that Amanda at best tries to use words she doesn't understand or use correctly. I can just imagine how she came across when being interviewed by the police.

The sad part is her demeanor hurts her case because many could perceive her stilted style as a cover for guilt.



To be sure she is not very savvy and doesn't let people give her the advice she needs, but as said before, that doesn't make her guilty or even move the needle in that direction.
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, I happen to agree with your statement . She doesnt present herself the way I think she should either (she's not me). When I see her I realize she's just an ordinary person trying to be on camera what she's not. (comfortable)That's a lawyer, a rebel, Erin Brockavich (sure thats spelled wrong) type .
Ive had a camera in my face with a reporter asking questions and can testify that my brain turned to Jello. It would be even more difficult if my freedom depended on it and I knew people would twist every thing I said around. I'm in favor of the you tube video but with lawyers to anwer the tough questions. Edda seems like a good candidate too. JMO
 
Machiavelli said:
The putative semen stain does not prove nor indicate a sexual assault after stbbing.
Click to expand...

Suppose the putative semen stain turned out to be Guede's, Curatolo's, Kokoman's, Filomena's boyfriend's, or 3 of the 4 guys from downstairs? Except for her boyfriend who may claim they used the pillow consensually, or Raffaele who might have used the pillow in Amanda's room with Amanda consensually, would that not be important?

Suppose the DNA belongs to yet another male whose DNA is on file with the Italian police who had no business being in the house?

Mach, if the police knew from Kerscher's Italian boyfriend downstairs that he and Kerscher had used the pillow in their own consensual intimate act, that is one thing. But without that knowledge, it suggests willful evidence concealment by not testing the putative semen found under the hips of a murdered woman who was sexually assaulted.
 
Last edited:
Machiavelli said:
I came across these lines. Maybe, while reading Steve Moore's first article, you may have noticed that Moore gets wrong on the roughest data, even the number of stab wounds (he said the kitchen knife was not compatible with three of the four stab wounds).
Click to expand...

Machiavelli, a long time ago I had a pretty clear understand of what professional crime scene investigators said occurred in the victim's room. But I am no longer familiar with the details on this. I'll read what you and others have to say about the number of wounds, the order in which they were inflicted, where the victim and assailant were in the room, and what body position the victim was in as evidenced by blood splatters and other physical evidence.

You will please note from my long post, above, that when I first started following this case in the headlines I was predisposed to believe that the American girl was guilty. I assumed that the Perugian police did a proper investigation, must have irrefutable evidence, and that the court convicted on the basis of that. I trusted in that. But once I started reading about the poor investigation, questionable assumptions, exaggerated evidence, and suspect-centric maneuvers by the police and prosecutor the good guys in the PLE turned out to be the bad guys for me.
 
Last edited:
Strozzi said:
Suppose the putative semen stain turned out to be Guede's, Curatolo's, Kokoman's, Filomena's boyfriend's, or 3 of the 4 guys from downstairs? Except for her boyfriend who may claim they used the pillow consensually, or Raffaele who might have used the pillow in Amanda's room with Amanda consensually, would that not be important?

Suppose the DNA belongs to yet another male whose DNA is on file with the Italian police who had no business being in the house?

Mach, if the police knew from Kerscher's Italian boyfriend downstairs that he and Kerscher had used the pillow in their own consensual intimate act, that is one thing. But without that knowledge, it suggests willful evidence concealment by not testing the putative semen found under the hips of a murdered woman who was sexually assaulted.
Click to expand...

That's a totally different topic. Either we are discussiong about the dinamic of the sexual violence and stabbing, or we are discussiong about the dynamics of investigation, defence requests etc.
 
Grinder said:
Spot on. I do think the PIP somehow can't admit that Amanda comes across as less than a dean's list student and her choice of words, well let's say they don't always make sense.

In fact, it is a little like the PGP and Curatolo. They should admit he is not credible and the PIP should admit that Amanda at best tries to use words she doesn't understand or use correctly. I can just imagine how she came across when being interviewed by the police.

The sad part is her demeanor hurts her case because many could perceive her stilted style as a cover for guilt.

To be sure she is not very savvy and doesn't let people give her the advice she needs, but as said before, that doesn't make her guilty or even move the needle in that direction.
Click to expand...

Who would that be Grinder? You? Who among us always says and does the right thing? And who among us could be perceived as saying the right thing by a group of people who are viewing every word and phrase through a lens of cynicism? Frankly, I'm in total disagreement with you. I don't think those without an opinion are viewing as you say Amanda's "stilted style" as a cover for guilt.

Amanda has been put in that position where she cannot win with the guilters. She is castigated for not reaching out to the Kerchers, and then when she makes any attempt it is viewed as self serving.

I'm reminded of Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech. While almost everyone looks back at that event today as a positive, I can assure you that the KKK and others in South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama and the rest of the Deep South viewed it very negatively.

While I expect the guilters to view any action by Amanda negatively, I refuse to accept their premise. Why do you look for a way to jump on their train of crazy thought and attempt to give it credibility?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom