Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

So Randy explains he intends to lecture judges about law, honesty and legal praxis...

Sounds to me like they could use a refresher course!

 

[Bill Williams]

Which I assume, this is another part of the Massei trial you are about to quote. Because I missed it.
When did Mignini say that?
I think never.

Please read Massei. I doesn't matter much to quote things to you. You still think Massei made no ruling about psychopathology.

 

[Machiavelli]

Just a question, Machiavelli.

When do you think in the 47 days that the bra-clasp lay uncollected on the floor was the clasp deformed? I mean, it was not found in the place it was originally photographed.

Can you demonstrate chain of possession of this as evidence to show that sometime in those 47 days some other mechanism did not cause its deformity.

If the defence has to prove contamination, the least you can do is prove it was not deformed by some other means in those 47 days when it's whereabouts was unknown. I mean, we know it was moved at least once by some unknown force in those 47 days. Can you prove it was not moved twice or more, say ten times?

Actually the clasp was photographed when the body was removed.

And anyway, testimonies exist. Nobody reported of picking up the clasp and pulll the hooks apart with his fingers.

 

[Machiavelli]

Please read Massei. I doesn't matter much to quote things to you. You still think Massei made no ruling about psychopathology.

Massei did not make any ruling about psychopathology.

(and he could not do that even theoretically, by law).

You did not quote Massei saying the suspects "were rather normal".

 

[Machiavelli]

Speaking of footprints, hasn't anybody tried to recreate the bathmat print as I instructed months ago? Such a simple demonstration should effectively shutdown the cleanup requirement for the missing heal.

I did not "recreate" the bathmat print. But I did measurements and an overlapping with the footprints of Guede and Sollecito's....

 

[Machiavelli]

I think that perfectly sums up what we are seeing here. The magistrates can't ever be wrong to someone who perceives them as being like the magistrate in Z, and who perceives that they are on the just side of the political struggle within Italy.

Don't obfuscate. You are not acusing magistrates of being wrong. You are accusing magistrates - many of them, but also a number of other people, and also superior institutions such as the Supreme Court - of being an incredibly organized bunch of corrupt criminals running a huge conspiracy apparently bigger than the Dreyfuss affair.

 

[Bill Williams]

Please read Massei. I doesn't matter much to quote things to you. You still think Massei made no ruling about psychopathology.

Massei did not make any ruling about psychopathology.

(and he could not do that even theoretically, by law).

You did not quote Massei saying the suspects "were rather normal".

Move on, Machiavelli. People can read.

 

[JREF2010]

Strozzi didn't say the information was believable. Strozzi said, "His comments on the people, evidence, motivations are useful to read because he is the closest we have here to see into the mindset of the prosecution," which is very true.

There are sites that are full of the prosecutions mindset, and journalists who are pro PGP. But they are so divided and all over the place in their opinions and perspectives its always seemed to be a fruitless tree only bearing subjective evidence and chaos.

Maresca's closing was a perfect analogy of PGP tossing everything out there, even the vacation resorts are painted to be evil somehow. The chaos is how none of this seems to be addressing what the ISC had requested (which read like a 2007 Daily Mail article which is even worse than this poop-motive, imo).

 

[andreajo]

No, the fact that the hook was forced is evidence from its deformation, an effect of pulling it, by someone who was unacccustomed to opening bra clasps. And what you say it's not true: you don't need to even touch the fabric in order to force the clasp. You can do it by just grabbing the metal parts with your fingers.

Sollecito's DNA - and no Guede's DNA - was on the metal clasp. And the clasp has been forced.

Guede's DNA trace was instead on a side of the bra, too far from the clasp to be useful point to apply force while attempting to open it. And there is no DNA trace of Guede on the clasp or close to it, remember that.



There is no evidence a human hand tore this fabric. As long as the stich line is uncut that may offer an even grater resistence than the metal hook. You would need a considerable, rather extreme force to tear that with your hands. And there is no trace of hand grabbing its extremties. Actually, I think that you need a knife to cut the stiches. That's what a thin knife would easilly do.

Take it from a seamstress and a bra-wearer: this analysis is nonsensical. Somebody ripped off the bra with force, tearing the stitches out of the seam and bending the hook. Unless the hook got bent later when a gazillion cops marched around the room.

You don't bend a bra-hook in the middle of an attack by pulling on the hook with your fingernail. You don't painstakingly pick out a seam with a thin knife in the middle of a murderous fight.

 

[RandyN]

No, the fact that the hook was forced is evidence from its deformation, an effect of pulling it, by someone who was unacccustomed to opening bra clasps. And what you say it's not true: you don't need to even touch the fabric in order to force the clasp. 1.You can do it by just grabbing the metal parts with your fingers.
2. Sollecito's DNA - and no Guede's DNA - was on the metal clasp. And the clasp has been forced. 3. Guede's DNA trace was instead on a side of the bra, too far from the clasp to be useful point to apply force while attempting to open it. And there is no DNA trace of Guede on the clasp or close to it, remember that.
There is no evidence a human hand tore this fabric. As long as the stich line is uncut that may offer an even grater resistence than the metal hook. You would need a considerable, rather extreme force to tear that with your hands. And there is no trace of hand grabbing its extremties. Actually, I think that you need a knife to cut the stiches. 4. That's what a thin knife would easilly do.

1. No you can not just grab and pull these tiny hooks! These are small consealed metal hooks...BTW too bad your incompetent lab tech Stefanoni rusted these hooks...perhaps we could retest them to see who these three other men who are also found on this tiny hook. I bet they are Toto, Kokomaniac and Lumumba. Who do you think they are?

2. Why leave out the three other men found on the bra hook? How is that logical? Or is that Italian logical? You know the special kind of logic that is allowed to be completely illogical? 4 male DNA traces are found on the now rusted bra hook. Lets talk about those not from RG or RS OK?

3. Remember this...only RG footprints and fingerprints are found in the murder room. Where are the other "attacker" prints? Cleaned? Where are the swirl traces from cleaning? OH none...your argument is silly even foolish.

4. You also think a man the size of RG could not possibly attack and kill a tiny girl like MK. Anyone could rip a seam by force of hand and nothing in evidence indicates a thin knife or any knife was used for that. Why not just speculate that this seam was cut with a laser? The footprints are missing due to levitation and the time line is difficult because Ka nox did the Jedi mind trick on all of Italy.

Causo Cuiso chow.

 

[Machiavelli]

Move on, Machiavelli. People can read.

Yes. They can read that you don't tell us where Massei is saying suspects were "rather normal".

If the statement is so clear it should not be difficult. There should be a phrase saying "mentally normal".
Where is it?

 

[Bill Williams]

Just a question, Machiavelli.

When do you think in the 47 days that the bra-clasp lay uncollected on the floor was the clasp deformed? I mean, it was not found in the place it was originally photographed.

Can you demonstrate chain of possession of this as evidence to show that sometime in those 47 days some other mechanism did not cause its deformity.

If the defence has to prove contamination, the least you can do is prove it was not deformed by some other means in those 47 days when it's whereabouts was unknown. I mean, we know it was moved at least once by some unknown force in those 47 days. Can you prove it was not moved twice or more, say ten times?

Actually the clasp was photographed when the body was removed.

And anyway, testimonies exist. Nobody reported of picking up the clasp and pulll the hooks apart with his fingers.

This is your answer? Ok, the simple assertion that "testimonies exist" is your answer? You obviously have no idea what it means to have something lay 47 days in a room, and be found at a place where it was not in the very photograph you admit was taken.

Did anyone "report" why it was found at a place other than it was photographed? I thought not. So obviously the "reports" are incomplete and someone is not telling us something.

What's the matter with you?

 

[Bill Williams]

Yes. They can read that you don't tell us where Massei is saying suspects were "rather normal".

If the statement is so clear it should not be difficult. There should be a phrase saying "mentally normal".
Where is it?

Machiavelli, you're the only one carrying on about this. Everyone else, it appears, can read. Move on.

 

[Strozzi]

Strozzi didn't say the information was believable. Strozzi said, "His comments on the people, evidence, motivations are useful to read because he is the closest we have here to see into the mindset of the prosecution," which is very true.

Mary, you are correct. I agree with very little of what Machiavelli writes about the people, evidence, and motivations. Sometimes I am so stunned by his posts that I hit my forehead with my hand, as they taught us to do at Mason boot camp.

But I find Machiavelli's comments instructive because of the insight it gives into the mind of Mignini. I believe Machiavelli's views are close to (not exact) Mignini's views, and that is something I want to try to understand. Frightening, isn't it?

I do appreciate Machiavelli being here. On some pages he takes on a whole team, one after the other. Sometimes he shares his research, and that is helpful.

This critical debate would be poorer without him. Without Machiavelli here, it would be like one hand trying to clap. You need two opposing hands to make a sound.

 

[Machiavelli]

Take it from a seamstress and a bra-wearer: this analysis is nonsensical. Somebody ripped off the bra with force, tearing the stitches out of the seam and bending the hook. Unless the hook got bent later when a gazillion cops marched around the room.

You don't bend a bra-hook in the middle of an attack by pulling on the hook with your fingernail. You don't painstakingly pick out a seam with a thin knife in the middle of a murderous fight.

Ok but there is Sollecito's DNA on the metal clasp. And there is no Guede's DNA near it.

No no the clasp was not crushed, it was opened with force. The hooks were opened not crushed. And it had benn also photographed immediately.

I point out that - what I think the evidence shows - is that there was no real "murderous fight". There was no real fight: Meredith was immobilized almost completely by the overwhelming force of multiple individuals.
The immobilization of the victim is one of the most striking and disturbing elements that the physical/autopsy evidence shows, imho.

 

[acbytesla]

This is your answer? Ok, the simple assertion that "testimonies exist" is your answer? You obviously have no idea what it means to have something lay 47 days in a room, and be found at a place where it was not in the very photograph you admit was taken.

Did anyone "report" why it was found at a place other than it was photographed? I thought not. So obviously the "reports" are incomplete and someone is not telling us something.

What's the matter with you?

Yea, chain of custody means nothing to the Perugian authorities. 4 different males had left their DNA on the clasp. This alone proves the clasp was contaminated.

 

[andreajo]

Ok but there is Sollecito's DNA on the metal clasp. And there is no Guede's DNA near it.

No no the clasp was not crushed, it was opened with force. The hooks were opened not crushed. And it had benn also photographed immediately.

I point out that - what I think the evidence shows - is that there was no real "murderous fight". There was no real fight: Meredith was immobilized almost completely by the overwhelming force of multiple individuals.
The immobilization of the victim is one of the most striking and disturbing elements that the physical/autopsy evidence shows, imho.

I wouldn't expect the clasp itself to be touched. Pulling on the fabric to which it is attached would pull it open. You couldn't "open it by force" by touching it directly with your fingers.

You have probably already guessed that I don't subscribe to the multiple attacker theory.

I also think that the time lapse & relocation of the clasp along with the visibly dirty gloves of Ms. Stefanoni disqualify it as a reliable source of DNA evidence. If you are going to use evidence to send someone to jail for the next 25 years, you need to hold yourself to high standards.

 

[Strozzi]

Ok but there is Sollecito's DNA on the metal clasp. And there is no Guede's DNA near it.

No no the clasp was not crushed, it was opened with force. The hooks were opened not crushed. And it had benn also photographed immediately.

I point out that - what I think the evidence shows - is that there was no real "murderous fight". There was no real fight: Meredith was immobilized almost completely by the overwhelming force of multiple individuals.
The immobilization of the victim is one of the most striking and disturbing elements that the physical/autopsy evidence shows, imho.

Note to the reader: my comment below evokes a graphic image of the victim.

Maciavelli, I though the evidence shows that Meredith was wearing her bra as she coughed blood+foam from her mouth. That would indicate she was not then putting up a real fight - that she was immobilized almost completely by overwhelming force. Having had her throat slashed by Guede, there is no reason to believe that other people were necessary to immobilize her. One guy, Guede, having slashed her throat, could control her as she was down on all fours.

 

[acbytesla]

Ok but there is Sollecito's DNA on the metal clasp. And there is no Guede's DNA near it.

No no the clasp was not crushed, it was opened with force. The hooks were opened not crushed. And it had benn also photographed immediately.

I point out that - what I think the evidence shows - is that there was no real "murderous fight". There was no real fight: Meredith was immobilized almost completely by the overwhelming force of multiple individuals.
The immobilization of the victim is one of the most striking and disturbing elements that the physical/autopsy evidence shows, imho.

There was also 4 other men's DNA on the bra clasp. There was also a half a dozen or more of Rudy's shoe prints in the bedroom and none of Raffaele's. There was also Rudy's DNA on Meredith's vagina. None of Raffaele. There was Rudy's palm print in Meredith's blood. No fingerprints of Raffaele's

There also is no connection between Rudy and Raffaele. No emails, no texts, no phone calls ever. Rudy spent all his time playing basketball breaking into homes and businesses. While Raffaele's was a student who was working on his degree.

 

[moodstream]

Machiavelli, you need to respond to this post.

Can you supply the information missing from the court documents? Who were the medical examiners? Where are the certificates? Can they be accessed? In your post, you claim to know. Do you in fact know?