Windows 8: how did so much suck happen?

I've been dreading the upgrade and I must confess, it's not as bad as anticipated. It's worse. :mad:

Could you elaborate? I really do struggle to understand these responses, given the desktop interface of W8.1 is virtualy indistinguishable from W7.
 
I do wonder how the release of Windows 95 (which of course introduced the start menu as well as lots of others standard bits of Windows) would have looked if 3.11 had the numbers of people using it at home that XP did, and the web widely available and used for them to vent on.
 
There is difference people like and accept, and difference people hate and reject.

That W8 has been so totally rejected tells me that it is the latter.

It tells me people react before actually understanding how windows 8 works. Like many people, my knee-jerk reaction was "WTF is this? This sucks." Then after a bit I went to "meh this isn't that bad actually". Now I actually like it slightly better than 7. But really it's not very different at all.
 
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Could you elaborate? I really do struggle to understand these responses, given the desktop interface of W8.1 is virtualy indistinguishable from W7.
It's pretty much the laundry list of things that have been batted about in these threads extensively.

My new computer is Win 8. However I still have to use old computers for work reasons. Plus I generally spend most of my work day in remote desktop sessions. This adds up to my not having had a lot of time to work with it, look up and do the various tweeks to make it usable. The time I have spent has been constantly frustrating.
 
I bet you hate mice then.

Great strawman

So presumably you must have hated every previous version. No version of Windows has been exactly like the previous.

All of my Photo Kiosks ran on Windows2000 when I bought them.

When we upgraded to Win XP, it was seamless.We installed the OS, then all the software, plugged in the network, plugged in the Hardware Lock, restarted them and "hey presto, everything worked flawlessly.

When we upgraded four machines to Win 7 (we gave Vista a miss for obvious reasons) it was seamless, We installed the OS, then all the software, plugged in the network, plugged in the Hardware Lock, restarted them and "hey presto", everything worked flawlessly.

When we tried to upgrade to Win 8, we installed the OS, then all the software, plugged in the network, plugged in the Hardware Lock, restarted it and.....

win8ceonerror.png


My IT guy from Whitech tells me that Win 8 won't read the hardware lock. I can buy new ones from Whitech for $650 each plus GST (tax). Eight Kiosks (plus another one for the DCM if I want to upgrade that to Win 8 would be $5850 + GST.

Err, no thanks

No version of Windows has been exactly like the previous. As far as I can tell, the same is true of Mac OS and the major flavours of Linux.

I expect some changes of course, but I expect it to be just like buying a new car. I have owned several successive models of Subaru, beginning with a Leone and currently with the Legacy Grand Wagon. The later models all have nice extras like ride-height, suspension stiffness, traction control, and electrically adjustable seats, that the earlier models didn't have. However, they all have one thing in common. The steering wheel is right in front of the driver, and the pedals on the floor are clutch on the left, brake in the middle and accelerator on the right.
 
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Windows 8 is survivable. Windows server 2012 however makes me want to switch to Linux. Don't get me started on the proprietary and irrationally cobbled together powershell commands. It's enough to make me think they wanted to explicitly punish people who used a Windows Core Server install. Changing the network configuration on a headless Linux install involves editing a single file in vi. The same task in windows server core is a batch of absurdly long commands designed by a sadist. It makes grep look intuitive. At least linux makes you type less before grousing about an error.
 
It tells me people react before actually understanding how windows 8 works. Like many people, my knee-jerk reaction was "WTF is this? This sucks." Then after a bit I went to "meh this isn't that bad actually". Now I actually like it slightly better than 7. But really it's not very different at all.


There's where you went wrong.

Your refusal to stand by your guns after forming a hasty first impression and then going as far as actually changing your mind in the face of more information is a sure sign of weakness.
 
<snip>

All of my Photo Kiosks ran on Windows2000 when I bought them.

When we upgraded to Win XP, it was seamless.We installed the OS, then all the software, plugged in the network, plugged in the Hardware Lock, restarted them and "hey presto, everything worked flawlessly.

When we upgraded four machines to Win 7 (we gave Vista a miss for obvious reasons) it was seamless, We installed the OS, then all the software, plugged in the network, plugged in the Hardware Lock, restarted them and "hey presto", everything worked flawlessly.

When we tried to upgrade to Win 8, we installed the OS, then all the software, plugged in the network, plugged in the Hardware Lock, restarted it and.....

win8ceonerror.png


My IT guy from Whitech tells me that Win 8 won't read the hardware lock. I can buy new ones from Whitech for $650 each plus GST (tax). Eight Kiosks (plus another one for the DCM if I want to upgrade that to Win 8 would be $5850 + GST.

Err, no thanks

<snip>


Copy protection dongles have always been problematic as far as the smooth operation of a PC is concerned.

The fact that the particular one you are talking about survived a couple of iterations of Windows before it finally started screwing up is not an indictment Win 8. Maybe a testimony to whoever coded it in the first place, but backward compatibility can only ever be expected to go so far.

Somewhere back in the mid-eighties I came to the conclusion that any program which required me to use a hardware copy protection dongle (or a key disk, or carved reserved sectors into my hard disk, or ... ) needed to be avoided. This was after several quite disturbing events. I've never regretted that policy since, nor been the least tempted to change it.

If the developers of the software you are using can justify such an extreme cost to replace a hardware key which they are compelling you to use then more power to them, but I think they just have you by the short hairs and are squeezing because they can. This tends to be the mindset of outfits which require copy protection dongles.

My BIL ran into a somewhat similar problem as far as obsolescence is concerned when some tape drives he used for USPS address merging used a card which wouldn't run on AT mboard. He just kept an old XT machine to run them and networked it to the rest of his system.

He didn't blame the OS or the new computers.

Things change. I have boxes of software which wouldn't run without taking extra steps even if I still had a 5.25 floppy drive I could hoop up to my current computer.

All you're dealing with is an avaricious company which wants to take you to the cleaners rather than keep their product backward compatible.

Sorta like Apple, I guess.

:boxedin:
 
My personal feeling is that 8 (it's 6.2, MS, can't you get your version numbers in order?) feels like it's suffering from multiple personality disorder. It has these two divergent interfaces like I'm running two separate OSs, but some things, it seems, can only be done from one or the other.

In a way these threads remind me of my opinion on Windows ME: for me it was a perfectly good 9x version and actually worked better than 98se (I had a specific driver problem) but I also had to tweak it to get it to work properly. It worked well for me but that doesn't mean it wasn't bad for most people.
There you go, 8 = ME. Maybe Vista is 95 and 7 is 98.

ETA: 8's nasty habit of blue screening on me from a fresh install (consumer preview VM and OEM on a new device) also soured me on it.
 
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Somewhere back in the mid-eighties I came to the conclusion that any program which required me to use a hardware copy protection dongle (or a key disk, or carved reserved sectors into my hard disk, or ... ) needed to be avoided. This was after several quite disturbing events. I've never regretted that policy since, nor been the least tempted to change it.
When AutoDesk stopped using them for AutoCAD, they wouldn't exchange ours for any sort of certificate, but we needed to keep them as proof of purchase for the upgrade path for later versions (or something similar). We therefore still have a couple of boxes full of them, and they're not small.

Of course, they also go in a serial port, which is not always included on new machines.
 
I have to say, this thread has prompted me to install W95 again, just to see how well I actually remember it. So far, I've been having trouble with mail settings, TCP/IP bindings, missing floppy complaints while installing from a (virtual) CD, and a weird VFAT error. I had also completely forgotten that I would have to partition and format the hard drive. As I type these words, I hear the familiar-yet-forgotten startup sound that tells me that setup is complete.
 
Wow, there's a LOT I can still say on this subject!

And, as tempting as it is to respond to more of the posts in here, so far, I don't have time for that now.

My general advice is to install a Start Menu replacement, such as Classic Shell or Start8 from StarDock. It will get you back the Win7-like interface you know and love.

how did so much suck happen?
I suspect the answer has more to do with management problems inside Microsoft, rather than any technical progress they were trying to achieve.

Sure, the "technical progress" of having to build a tablet-friendly interface was a significant part of the problem. I am not denying that!

But, there is NO REASON their new interface needed to suck so much, except for the fact that its management sucked.

In most previous incarnations of Windows, the user experience was improved incrementally, or sometimes dramatically (ala Windows 95), based on sound science in user interface design. In the case of Windows 8, it was pushed out the door with radical changes, that were barely tested in the real world. And, its problems were glossed over with animations and instructions saying "move to this side for this, or that side to that".

For example: The concept of icon/title pairing had already been proven to be the most effective way to convey an application's identity, in a graphical interface. Alternatives had been tried before, and failed. The Windows 8 team decided to ignore that case history, almost completely. The Live Tiles, for example, are inconsistent with how applications are presented: Sometimes with large icons and text; sometimes with flipping images, small icons, and no text. The Quick Launch menu (that few people know about) contains many of the old Start Menu items, but without the icons, making it more difficult to find things on it.

There are TONS more examples where that came from. But, I don't have time to get into them now. Suffice it to say that it is really rather embarrassing that Microsoft could not get something as simple as Application Identification right, in their new operating system. :rolleyes:

why did they change this? Why did they do that? Have they not heard of multitasking? Did they think everyone just loved the clunky interfaces of smart phones? Who possibly thought any of this was a good idea?
Few people at Microsoft thought it was a good idea, but it was enthusiastically championed by the lead of Windows 8 development, Steven Sinofsky. And, everyone decided he knew what he was doing. He then left the company shortly after Windows 8 launched. Presumably, that was a mutual decision by both him and Microsoft.

So many things I used to do on Vista (itself notorious for being clunky) are now harder. How did this happen?
Windows 8 was NOT made for YOU!! It was made for kindergarten students, who will grow up getting used to that sort of thing. Why would you assume a giant corporation, building an interface for EVERYONE, would care about YOUR needs?!!

Perhaps the NEXT version of Windows will be more for you. They are, according to rumor, bringing back the Start Menu: http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/09/mi...he-start-menu-in-the-next-version-of-windows/

If you can't wait that long, install Start8. It's only $5.00 or less, after a free trial. (I saw it was on sale for $4.00 recently.) Or Classic Shell, which is completely free, but not quite as good, and apparently support might be going down.

Start menu always existed - it just went fullscreen.
Fullscreen, yes. But, with LESS on it!

Gone from it are: system settings (such as the Control Panel), documents (and images, etc.), the Run command, the Search box*, Help and Support, and the Shut Down options, etc.
(*Yes, I know you can search by typing at the start screen, but who knows to do that, unless they were told?)

All of those are in different places now. They went from a compact, full-featured menu; to a full-screen, limited-use, distracting-tile interface; making it substantially less productive for most computer users.

Some people, such as yourself, Icerat, might enjoy it. But, as you can see: Most do not. Your defense of Win8 has had very little impact on anyone's opinion of it. And, this is a problem Microsoft has to deal with. They, objectively, screwed up, here!

And, embarrassingly, there is NO REASON it had to be that way! If ONLY they had kept the Start Menu as an option, a lot of this nightmare would have never happened. Perhaps they were scared that the Modern UI would be largely ignored? But it is being largely ignored, anyway.

Remember: There was nothing wrong, in principle, of Microsoft building a tablet-PC-friendly interface. That is, after all, the way of the future. The problem, here, is that they just SUCKED at doing so!
 
When AutoDesk stopped using them for AutoCAD, they wouldn't exchange ours for any sort of certificate, but we needed to keep them as proof of purchase for the upgrade path for later versions (or something similar). We therefore still have a couple of boxes full of them, and they're not small.

Of course, they also go in a serial port, which is not always included on new machines.


Oddly enough, among the many computer related things I have accumulated over the years are two USB to serial converters. I needed them to hook up the HP48s I used with my total station to my Motion tablet PC. How's that for backward compatibility?

I'm pretty sure I couldn't put my hands on the driver software for either of them anymore, though.
 
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Gone from it are: system settings (such as the Control Panel), documents (and images, etc.), the Run command, the Search box*, Help and Support, and the Shut Down options, etc.
(*Yes, I know you can search by typing at the start screen, but who knows to do that, unless they were told?)
But they are all available in the right-click-bottom-left-corner menu that you mentioned earlier in the post. Admittedly, as you said, not a lot of people know that that's there, but it contains most of the useful tools for managing basic tasks.
 
But they are all available in the right-click-bottom-left-corner menu that you mentioned earlier in the post. Admittedly, as you said, not a lot of people know that that's there, but it contains most of the useful tools for managing basic tasks.
Without the icons, which makes it harder to find things.

And, it is a right-click context menu. Context menus are good for setting advanced properties of whatever specific thing you are right-clicking on. But, it is inconsistent and distracting to need to do that for launching core operating system features and programs.

So, the BEST thing you can say is that they split the old Start Menu: Left-Click for one half of it. Right-click for the other half.
Sounds like a very... productive... change to me. :rolleyes:


And, one additional problem with the Start Screen being full-screen is that it leads to more cases of situational amnesia. This is the sort of thing that happens when you go into the kitchen, and forget what you were supposed to be getting from there. The act of transforming the environment actually makes you sometimes forget stuff from the previous environment. And, now, it's a built-in part of the Windows Operating system!
We see more people clicking Start, momentarily forgetting why they did that, going back to their application, remembering, then clicking Start again. That didn't happen nearly as much with the partial-screen compact Start Menu.

It's also a dreadful nuisance when you are trying to video chat with people: "Hold on a sec! Don't show anything interesting on the screen, for a few seconds, while I open up this other application."
 
So, the BEST thing you can say is that they split the old Start Menu: Left-Click for one half of it. Right-click for the other half.
Sounds like a very... productive... change to me. :rolleyes:
Well, I can sort of see what you mean, although I would have said it was split into four. The fact is that most users have maybe half a dozen applications that they use all the time, so these are pinned to the taskbar. Ones that are used from time to time, but not every day, are on the main start screen. Ones that are very rarely used can be accessed in the full start screen. Then ones that users don't generally use, such as the Run command, are at the right-click menu, although I actually use Win+R, and I suspect you do too.

Put in that way, it obviously sounds very complicated, but the reality is that the vast majority of users don't use very many different apps. Put them on the taskbar and Bob becomes your uncle. I'm not particularly bright, yet I seemed to manage this in a remarkably short time.
 
icerat said:
Could you elaborate? I really do struggle to understand these responses, given the desktop interface of W8.1 is virtualy indistinguishable from W7.

Really? I'm pretty sure it has been explained to you specifically numerous times.

Fullscreen, yes. But, with LESS on it!

Gone from it are: system settings (such as the Control Panel), documents (and images, etc.), the Run command, the Search box*, Help and Support, and the Shut Down options, etc.
(*Yes, I know you can search by typing at the start screen, but who knows to do that, unless they were told?)

All of those are in different places now. They went from a compact, full-featured menu; to a full-screen, limited-use, distracting-tile interface; making it substantially less productive for most computer users.

Some people, such as yourself, Icerat, might enjoy it. But, as you can see: Most do not. Your defense of Win8 has had very little impact on anyone's opinion of it. And, this is a problem Microsoft has to deal with. They, objectively, screwed up, here!

And, embarrassingly, there is NO REASON it had to be that way! If ONLY they had kept the Start Menu as an option, a lot of this nightmare would have never happened. Perhaps they were scared that the Modern UI would be largely ignored? But it is being largely ignored, anyway.

Remember: There was nothing wrong, in principle, of Microsoft building a tablet-PC-friendly interface. That is, after all, the way of the future. The problem, here, is that they just SUCKED at doing so!

Here it is again.
 
It tells me people react before actually understanding how windows 8 works. Like many people, my knee-jerk reaction was "WTF is this? This sucks." Then after a bit I went to "meh this isn't that bad actually". Now I actually like it slightly better than 7. But really it's not very different at all.

Like many more people, my reaction was "Huh, this is weird", then "Who would design this?", and then "Can I fix this?"

Finally after a few months I went back to OS X. I pity the ones left behind.
 

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