You also need to be careful. If you didn’t want to say that there are prophecies about a Messiah crucified and rejected by the Jews in the Old Testament -or easily interpretable as-, then you wrote just the opposite.
And this is exactly the basis of my argument. It is (highly) unlikely that a Jew(s) in Palestine or the Diaspora had invented a Messiah crucified by Romans from two or three biblical passages that didn’t say anything of a crucified -or persecuted- Messiah neither about the Romans, but only about some suffering individual as scapegoat of Israel sins or similar.
I’m sorry but this is difficult to understand. It is easier to think about an intent to justify post even to a real and disturbing event: a religious leader crucified by Romans.
David - I notice you did not highlight my notes of caution in the above, where I repeatedly said
“iirc” , and stressed several times that the whole point is NOT whether the always and deliberately obscure and vaguely worded prophecies in the OT, actually named the “messiah” or named “Jesus” (though astonishingly, one such “prophecy” ascribed to Moses,
does actually name Jesus himself … and Moses was supposed to have lived c.1300-1500BC!!!). However, whilst I did not instantly find the quotes that I wanted from Paul’s letters regarding persecution of Jesus (though iirc, those quotes
are indeed there in one of Paul’s letters), the very first few moments of search in Wikipedia produces chapter & verse on these prophecies as indicated below …
... the point of which is not to say that those always vague and ambiguous OT prophecies specifically say they refer to a messiah or to Jesus (Paul's "Jesus" being several hundred years in their future!!), but that, not only is it obvious that Paul may very easily have believed that such prophecy was indeed intended to refer to this person that he now in c.30-50AD thought was once named “Yehoshua” ie “Jesus”, but as you can see in the numerous highlighted quotes below, the gospel authors
themselves were writing at that time (1st century AD??), saying that they too believed those same OT passages were indeed talking about their messiah named Jesus!!
OK, enough …. Just look at all the highlights below -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_messianic_prophecy
Daniel 9:24-27
Main article: Prophecy of Seventy Weeks
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" - Daniel 9:24-27 (Authorized Version 1611)
References to "most holy", "anointed" ("Messiah") and "prince" have been interpreted as speaking of Jesus, and the phrase "anointed shall be cut off" as pointing to his crucifixion, the "people of the prince who is to come" being taken to refer to the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.[2]
Isaiah 53:5
Main article: Isaiah 53
Isaiah 53 is probably the most famous example claimed by Christians to be a messianic prophecy fulfilled by Jesus. It speaks of one known as the "suffering servant," who suffers because of the sins of others. Jesus is said to fulfill this prophecy through his death on the cross.[28]
The following verse from Isaiah 53:5 is understood by many Christians to speak of Jesus as the Messiah:
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:5 (King James Version)
"But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed." Isaiah 53:5 (JPS The Judaica Press Tanach with Rashi's commentary
Modern scholars, like Rabbi Tovia Singer[29] as well as Rashi (1040–1105) and Origen (184/185 – 253/254 CE),[29] view the 'suffering servant' as a reference to the whole Jewish people, regarded as one individual,[30] and more specifically to the Jewish people deported to Babylon.[31] However, in aggadic midrash on the books of Samuel, a compendium of rabbinic folklore, historical anecdotes and moral exhortations, Isa 53:5 is messianically interpreted.[32][need quotation to verify]
One of the first claims in the New Testament that Isaiah 53 is a prophecy of Jesus comes from the Book of Acts, which describes a scene in which God commands Philip the Apostle to approach an Ethiopian eunuch who is sitting in a chariot, reading aloud to himself from the Book of Isaiah. The eunuch comments that he does not understand what he is reading (Isaiah 53) and Philip explains to him that the passage refers to Jesus: "And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? Of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus." This has been the standard Christian interpretation of the passage since Apostolic times.[33]
The (suffering) Servant,[34] as referring to the Jewish people, suffering from the cruelties of the nations, is a theme in the Servant songs and is mentioned in Isa 41:8-9, Isa 44:1, Isa 44:21, Isa 45:4, Isa 48:20 and Isa 49:3.[29]
Psalm 16
The interpretation of Psalm 16 as a messanic prophecy is common among Christian evangelical hermeneutics.[46] “I bless the Lord who has given me understanding, because even in the night, my heart warns me. I keep the Lord always within my sight; for he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. For this reason my heart is glad and my soul rejoices; moreover, my body also will rest secure, for thou wilt not leave my soul in the abode of the dead, nor permit thy holy one to see corruption. Thou wilt show me the path of life, the fullness of joys in thy presence, and delights at thy right hand forever” (verses 7-11).
According to the preaching of Peter, this prophecy is about the messiah’s triumph over death, i.e., the resurrection of Jesus.
“God raised Jesus up, having loosed the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. For David says concerning him, ‘I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken…
For thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, nor let thy Holy One see corruption… Thou wilt make me full of gladness with thy presence.’ Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and we are all witnesses of it” (Acts 2: 24-32).
Also of note is what Paul said in the synagogue at Antioch. “And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he spoke in this way, ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’ Therefore he also says in another psalm, ‘Thou wilt not let thy Holy One see corruption.’ For David, after he had served the counsel of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and saw corruption; but he whom God raised up saw no corruption” (Acts 13: 34-37).
They have pierced my hands and my feet
Text of Psalm 22:16
This verse, which is Psalm 22:17 in the Hebrew verse numbering, reads in the Masoretic Text as: כארי ידי ורגלי ("like a lion my hands and my feet"). The full verse of the Masoretic text read: .ילגרו ידי ,יראכ ;ינופיקה ,םיערמ תדע :םיבלכ ,ינובבס יכ זי,בכ םיליהת
The syntactical form of the Hebrew phrase appears to be lacking a verb, and this is supplied in the Aramaic targum which reads "they bite like a lion my hands and my feet".
The Septuagint has ωρυξαν χειράς μου και πόδας ("they have dug/pierced my hands and feet"), evidently taking the Hebrew to be based on the root כרה, supported by the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hahal Hever (5/6Hev1b f8_9:12) כר[ו ]ידי . 'Dig' has been understood in the sense of 'pierced' (as in Psalm 40:7/6), hence the rendering in the Syriac ("they have pierced my hands and feet").
Aquila of Sinope, a Christian convert to Judaism, undertook two translations of the Psalms from Hebrew to Greek. In the first, he renders the verse "they disfigured my hands and feet"; in the second he revised this to "they have bound my hands and feet". Jerome, translating the Psalms for the Latin Vulgate also made two versions. The earlier, from the Hexaplar Greek, reads "they have dug my hands and feet"; the later, made directly from pre-Masoretic Hebrew texts, reads with Aquila "they have bound my hands and feet".
English translations
Some English language translations, primarily those translated by or for Christian communities, render the text as stating: "They have pierced my hands and my feet" though English translations are not uniform in this rendering. Versions translated outside of Christian circles, such as the Jewish Publication Society and The Judaica Press, prefer different English renderings based on the Hebrew text.
Translation Text
Wycliffe "they delved mine hands and my feet"
Coverdale "they pierced my hands and my feet"
KJV "they pierced my hands and my feet"
NIV "they have pierced my hands and my feet"
ESV "they have pierced my hands and feet"
JPS "like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet"
Wyclif's Bible of 1395 adopts a literal translation of Latin Vulgate term foderunt (from Jerome's Hexaplar Psalms). Miles Coverdale in 1535, most likely influenced by Luther's German translation as durchgraben (dig through, penetrate) chooses the English word pierce; and this has been retained in the majority of subsequent English versions.
Explanations and interpretations[edit]
Rashi follows the Masoretic Text and paraphrases the phrase as "like lions (they maul) my hands and my feet."[1] Rashi bases his translation of Psalm 22:16/17 on the other uses of the phrase (כָּ אֲרִ י) K'ari, throughout biblical text. Rashi specifically cites Isaiah 38:13.The rendering by many English sources is a contentious point given that when the same Hebrew phrase used in Psalm 22:16/17 ירִאֲכָּ (K’Ari) is used elsewhere, translators uniformly render the word as “Lion”, as is the case with Isaiah 38:13 as shown in the translations below:
Translation Text
Wycliffe " I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones"
Coverdale " I thought I wolde haue lyued vnto the morow, but he brussed my bones like a lyon "
KJV " I reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so will he break all my bones"
NIV " I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones;"
ESV " I calmed myself until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones "
JPS " The more I make myself like unto a lion until morning, the more it breaketh all my bones "
The Masoretic Text reading presents the word ארי . An additional form of the word for lion ( אריה ) Arie, (without the prefix that denotes, like or as; as in [כָּ אֲרִ י] K'ari) occurs twice in Psalm 22, in verses 13/14 and 21/22. This translation in English is not fixed, providing the various rendering we see in English translations.
Gregory Vall noted that is possible that the LXX translators were faced with כארו; i.e. as in the Masoretic text, but ending with the longer letter vav (ו), rather than the shorter yod (י). This word is not otherwise known in Biblical Hebrew, but could be an alternative spelling derived from the root כרה, "to dig".[2] Vall proceeds to note nineteen conjectural emendations,[3] while Brent Strawn appeals to iconographical data in support of the MT reading.[4] A Psalms scroll was uncovered at Qumran, but is damaged at this point. However the editors of a psalms fragment from Nahal Hever do find in that text the word in question written as כארו, as Vall had previously speculated, and hence they support the reading "they dug at my hands and my feet".[5]
While it is true that an interpretation of "they have pierced" was preferable to many Christian commentators on account of its christological implications, there is no evidence that either the Jews or the Christians tampered with the text. The phrase is not quoted anywhere in the New Testament, despite the Septuagint reading being of a form that might be thought to prefigure the piercing of Jesus' hands and feet. So the phrase remains an unresolved translation dispute.
Psalm 34
"Many are the afflictions of the just man; but the Lord delivers him from all of them. He guards all his bones: not even one of them shall be broken." (Psalms 34:20)
Ray Pritchard has described Psalm 34:20 as a messianic prophecy.[53] In its account of the crucifixion of Jesus, the Gospel of John interprets it as a prophecy (John 19:36) and presents some of the details as fulfillment.
“So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with Jesus; but when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water… For these things took place that the scripture might be fulfilled, ‘Not a bone of him shall be broken.’ And again another scripture says, ‘They shall look on him whom they have pierced’” (John 19:32-37)[/I]
And finally, in respect of what I just showed with the quotes above in post #1015, regarding the messiah being “hung on a tree” (ie crucified), and specifically why Paul thought and actually said, that his faith and OT prophecy from God took precedence over man-made laws which he viewed as a curse on the people, see this -
https://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CP09Galatians.htm
Galatians 2:15-21 -
- And then I went on to explain that we, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, know that a man is justified not by performing what the Law commands but by faith in Jesus Christ. We ourselves are justified by our faith and not by our obedience to the Law, for we have recognised that no one can achieve justification by doing the "works of the Law". Now if, as we seek the real truth about justification, we find we are as much sinners as the Gentiles, does that mean that Christ makes us sinners? Of course not! But if I attempt to build again the whole structure of justification by the Law then I do, in earnest, make myself a sinner. For under the Law I "died", and now I am dead to the Law's demands so that I may live for God. As far as the Law is concerned I may consider that I died on the cross with Christ. And my present life is not that of the old "I", but the living Christ within me. The bodily life I now live, I live believing in the Son of God, who loved me and sacrificed himself for me. Consequently I refuse to stultify the grace of God by reverting to the Law. For if righteousness were possible under the Law then Christ died for nothing!
3:11 - It is made still plainer that no one is justified in God's sight by obeying the Law, for: 'The just shall live by faith.'
3:12 - And the Law is not a matter of faith at all but of doing, as, for example, in the scripture: 'The man who does them shall live by them.'
