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Merged Freefall is not evidence for Controlled Demolition

...If so, could not the same effect occur during a CD? Twisting/torquing is not integral to either a fire induced collapse or a CD, I wouldn't think. Or actually, ANY kind of collapse.
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Spot on. That is the key point. Any collapse requires a "mechanism" ie this bit broke then that causing this to...etc...etc..until the whole thing has fallen.

The issue then is that something needs to start it - the "initiator" - and it makes no difference if the initiator is malicious human intervention using explosives to cut a column or two - when we call it CD - OR an accident - truck runaway or such which cuts the same two columns when we call it "accident".

The silly ruddy building cannot tell the difference - it still falls down and the mechanism is identical WHATEVER cut those first columns. :rolleyes:

And that is the OP answered in three short paragraphs. :D
 
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David Watts - Since there is no mechanism in a simple gravity collapse to apply the energy in the perfectly even manner required to pulverize nearly all of the concrete into fine powder, microns thick, something else must have been taking place.

Your premise is entirely wrong, as I mentioned upthread. "pulverize nearly all of the concrete into fine powder, microns thick" is a plain falsehood.
 
Very good. Does this make sense as to 'greater than g' : I have seen it here -- pretty sure by you and at least one other -- that in the context of the NIST explanation of the 7 collapse, an 'over g' occurrence could possibly be due to a twisting/torquing effect. If so, could not the same effect occur during a CD? Twisting/torquing is not integral to either a fire induced collapse or a CD, I wouldn't think. Or actually, ANY kind of collapse.

Yes! It is highly unlikekly that the exterior of the building was utterly unconnected to the previously collapsed interior of the building. The north face then would be being pulled down and to the south by the broken interior, applying a torque on the exterior moment frame.

Had the south side of the structure been intact it is probable that it would have been drawn northward, into the center of the building. However it was missing some exterior columns and already leaning to the south.

So, we have a north exterior frame experiencing a downward and southward force due to the collapse of the interior. At one point in time the exterior moment frame fails at a lower floor (I have already outlined an explanation for this concerning the effect of the interior collapse on the cantilever truss system over the Con-Ed building). At that time the exterior frame is experiencing not only gravity on its mass but also the impulse force due to the connected but collapseing interior. TWO forces.

In addition, since the north frame wall is also tilting south and moving in that direction (its rotating) , the upper portions of the wall will actually accelerating faster than much lower points (unfortunately these lower points are not visible in the videos to compare to.).

However, none of this is even contemplated by Chandler. That is excusable for a high school physics teacher. Forensic engineering is not his forte. It is NOT excusable though, for actual engineers to ignore these effects and to blindly accept the work of a non-engineer, and his conclusions at face value.
 
Your premise is entirely wrong, as I mentioned upthread. "pulverize nearly all of the concrete into fine powder, microns thick" is a plain falsehood.

If this were the case it would be difficult to hide the convoy after convoy of large trucks carrying mostly powdered concrete away from the site. Wash it away? Sure, and clog the storm sewer with 365+ floors worth of concrete dust from WTC 1,2&7. Long grey stain in the Hudson strectching for miles and miles out to sea.

One would assume as well , that the hundreds of workers cleaning up the site would have something to say about the lack of solid concrete and the sight of nothing but concrete powder.

The premise of 365+ floors worth of concrete powdered, whether by explosives(let's not get started on how that is even accomplished), or mysterious space-a-beams, is ridiculousness.
 
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That is 911 truth, out of service.
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Sad to see a pilot who can't figure out RADAR proves 77 hit the Pentagon, much better than video. And then the FDR is there too. Like the Pentagon and 77, you can't get WTC 7 right, given 12 years and the answers. You picked lies from 911 truth for WTC 7 - that is as off course as you can get. You have fallen for the illusions of 911 truth.
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911 truth, using common sense, when physics and engineering is required.
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David Watts- WTC7, a steel-framed building collapsed on 9/11 even though it was not hit by an airplane. The 47 story tall building collapsed in a perfectly symmetrical fashion on 9/11. In fact you can put a ruler on the screen as you view the collapse and it comes PERFECTLY STRAIGHT DOWN ON A LINE! The collapse exhibited every single characteristic of a controlled demolition; or perhaps better said, a finely produced implosion. And there was not a single characteristic of destruction by fire; much less asymmetrical fire or even asymmetrical damage. In fact, neither governmental agency, NIST nor FEMA has been able to figure out how fires could have caused the collapse. WTC7 was a TALL, NARROW, massively braced steel-framed building. For such a TALL, NARROW building to come down in such a precisely symmetrical fashion -- vs. falling off to the side -- and DIRECTLY into its own footprint at about the speed of a falling brick; [FONT=&quot]common sense would say that would be impossible; unless of course, it had a lot of demolition help.[/FONT]

In order to dispute the findings of the NIST engineers you can’t use common sense, you have to use engineering sense. This requires a proper engineering education.


The WTC7 north wall first failed gradually, then suddenly, like NIST's and Chandler's data show, and as photos of the bent perimeter columns show.
Except Chandler can't understand his own data or engineering. No CD.


"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." - Twain



 
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I made some posts about five years ago. Some of the points I made were no doubt at least imprecise. For example, when I say that the collapse of WTC7 was "perfectly symmetrical" that indeed is not precise. Therefore I 'exaggerated' at least to some extent. And I believe I did it to make a point, at least for those unfamiliar with 7 to try to get them to at least look at it. But, I still contend it was only a slight exaggeration. When the faces that we can see and the roof and roofline collapsed, it was impressively symmetrical for a significant period. I understand that the further 7 fell the less symmetrical it became.
 
Pulverized concrete and how much of it was pulverized applies to the twin towers. So, I will not get into that here. But I would like to discuss it at some point, somewhere. I would think it would belong in a different thread. But, maybe not.
 
What is the opinion here regarding the findings of NIST? Is what they found accepted as to what actually happened? Or, could it be better described as a "probable cause?"
 
What is the opinion here regarding the findings of NIST? Is what they found accepted as to what actually happened? Or, could it be better described as a "probable cause?"

Plenty of discussion by JSanderO regarding alternate (non-CD) theories to WTC7 Collapse in another thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267933

Also look up Major Tom Disproves NIST and Christopher7 Disproves NIST threads for plenty of beating around the bush on the subject.
 
What is the opinion here regarding the findings of NIST? Is what they found accepted as to what actually happened? Or, could it be better described as a "probable cause?"

NIST does not label their collapse scenario as definitive, it their 'probable' sequence of collapse. So, yes.
JSanderO, poster on this forum, and an architect, takes issues with the NIST scenario. The CTBUH commented that they would have liked an investigation into the effects on beams and girders during the cooling phase.

However neither JSO, or the organization CTBUH, denies that fire ultimately caused the initial collapse and structural design allowed a progression to global collapse.
 
Pulverized concrete and how much of it was pulverized applies to the twin towers. So, I will not get into that here. But I would like to discuss it at some point, somewhere. I would think it would belong in a different thread. But, maybe not.
Why? Reports show it was only a small part of the dust cloud (total debris).

Reading your posts, You need to focus. Do you actually have a point?
 
What is the opinion here regarding the findings of NIST? Is what they found accepted as to what actually happened? Or, could it be better described as a "probable cause?"
The question does not lend to a simple binary "Yes" or "No" answer.

There are two overlapping issues which confuse the debate. And which members of the truth movement exploit as debate tactics.

First is the technical reality that WTC collapses were complex events - it is relatively easy to describe the main aspects of collapse but description becomes more difficult as it goes down into details. And at some depth of detail it becomes impossible to say exactly what happened.

BUT whether or not errors or non-definition of details matters depends entirely on the person who wants to use the data and the purpose for which they want to use it.

So that is technical reality.

The status of those technical aspects is that:

* People have identified areas of possible error in NIST findings. Those possible errors are all at detail level; AND

* (As far as I am aware) NO-ONE has ever shown that any error of detail matters to any person with a legitimate need for the detailed information. (My apology for the necessary pedantry of that statement. :o )

Second is a persisting problem of debating tactics. The use of false generalisations - whether global claims or global exclusion claim or an other form. 'I found that NIST was wrong on "Detail A" THEREFORE NIST is disproven on "Whatever Else Is Being Discussed"'. Sadly IMO far too often debunkers respond to the detailed issue - overlook the false logic - thereby giving de facto legitimacy to the truther debate tactics. But that is merely IMO :)

Third (I cannot count :o ) Confusion of objectives - too much debate gets lost between "Explain what happened" and "Prove NIST right or wrong" -- so much that in my first days of 9/11 forum posting I decided to never debate the two issues as if they were one. And I also determined to never rely on the authority of NIST reasoning when explaining WTC collapses. An easy choice for me - experienced engineer with confidence in my own profession. Not so easy for non-engineers or non-physicists - any one who needs to rely on other professionals for the authoritative technical reasoning.
 
wow

What is the opinion here regarding the findings of NIST? Is what they found accepted as to what actually happened? Or, could it be better described as a "probable cause?"
Failed to read NIST. Not a surprise.
NIST clearly defined their collapse cause, as a probable cause. Fires did it, and 911 truth remains, in the dark, as you fail to retract your old nonsense, and fail to tie your stuff to free-fall and the 911 truth claims.
911 truth cause is clearly fantasy based on ignorance.

Did you read NIST, for comprehension? Nope,
What did NIST say?
probablecollaspesequenceNIST.jpg


I made some posts about five years ago. Some of the points I made were no doubt at least imprecise. For example, when I say that the collapse of WTC7 was "perfectly symmetrical" that indeed is not precise. Therefore I 'exaggerated' at least to some extent. And I believe I did it to make a point, at least for those unfamiliar with 7 to try to get them to at least look at it. But, I still contend it was only a slight exaggeration. When the faces that we can see and the roof and roofline collapsed, it was impressively symmetrical for a significant period. I understand that the further 7 fell the less symmetrical it became.

Will you retract your lies. BTW, all you stuff from 5 years ago is nonsense. You could catch up to reality by retracting it at the source, OpEdNews, where the real truth is posted. lol, what a big lie

When will you post the retraction at OpEdNews?
 
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Some here say there was never any free fall. Both NIST and your favorite Chandler agree that there was a period of free fall. That is not saying anything about the interior. Obviously something was going on inside because we know/could see the penthouse fall. However, the north, west, and east face and roof fell together with the roofline. I am unsure if there is any video of the south face collapse. And, since we can see the roof and roofline come down together w/ the N,W,and E faces -- different videos -- the S face must have come down at least as fast and probably at the same rate since we cannot see the opposite side, the S face/wall, 'sticking up' in the 'background. Therefore the period of free fall (NIST 2.25s, Chandler 2.5s) occurred for the entire 'visible' building.

Does anyone disagree with this and do we all agree there was a period of free fall?

Stick with me, I want things to progress fairly quickly from here. Thx.
 
Is the sole reason controlled demolition is dismissed is because there were 'no' explosions?

It is understood that maybe there have been no CDs that actually fell at free fall, at least for the entire collapse. That does not mean it cannot be done. The goal in a CD is to demolish the structure, not generate free fall. I contend that if the goal was to have a structure fall at free fall speed, a good demolitionist could make it happen. I mean if a fire can make it happen, why not a demolitionist?
 
Is the sole reason controlled demolition is dismissed is because there were 'no' explosions? ...?
No. There were no explosives, no thermite, no inside job. Fire, and gravity. And gravity is the prime mover in CD. Gravity collapses don't look like CD, CD looks like a gravity collapse.


...
It is understood that maybe there have been no CDs that actually fell at free fall, at least for the entire collapse. That does not mean it cannot be done. The goal in a CD is to demolish the structure, not generate free fall. I contend that if the goal was to have a structure fall at free fall speed, a good demolitionist could make it happen. I mean if a fire can make it happen, why not a demolitionist?
So? Do you have examples, or what?

Free-fall is not an issue to determine CD or not. The evidence is the key. No thermite, no explosives, no MIB making it happen = no CD.

Free-fall is a way of 911 truth fooling people with nonsense. When will you retract your exaggerations and false information from your past? Your lies are misleading people.


Is the sole reason controlled demolition is dismissed is because there were 'no' explosions?

It is understood that maybe there have been no CDs that actually fell at free fall, at least for the entire collapse. That does not mean it cannot be done. The goal in a CD is to demolish the structure, not generate free fall. I contend that if the goal was to have a structure fall at free fall speed, a good demolitionist could make it happen. I mean if a fire can make it happen, why not a demolitionist?
 
Is the sole reason controlled demolition is dismissed is because there were 'no' explosions?
No david. There are dozens of big reasons why there was no CD - and hundreds at least if we include little reasons. Maybe a dozen or so truth movement claims in opposition.

If you want a "sole reason" it is because NO ONE has ever put forward an hypothesis in favour of CD that was persuasive.

The argument process used for these matters is often referred to as the "Scientific Method" - that is not pedantically correct - the challenge is in the field if engineering forensics and uses the relevant sub-set of features of the "Scientific Method"

The main one is that knowledge in these areas progresses by the development and improvement of "hypotheses". The process is never final - there is always options to improve by improving an existing hypothesis or offering a complete new one which is better than the existing.

So the situation with all the three WTC collapses is that there are hypotheses for each of them to explain the relevant collapse. None of them require CD and there was no evidence for CD which needed to be included.

If CD is to become accepted as part of the explanation, it needs a better hypothesis than the one that exists. Either by modifying the existing hypothesis OR by presenting a complete new hypothesis which persuasively overturns both the evidence and the reasoning for the accepted hypothesis.

No one has ever presented such an hypothesis. Not one from the truth movement in 12 years. So it is unlikely that one will appear BUT the engineering forensic subset of the principles of Scientific Method would accommodate such an hypothesis if it appears.

The most common defects with truther claims are:
A) They never present a complete explanation - the usual structure of a truther claim is:

1) "here is some anomaly I don't understand (insert one - thermXte, free fall, witness reports of banging noises";
2) I think (whichever you picked) is used in CD;
3) That proves there was CD;
4) You prove that there wasn't

Simply stated the errors are:
1) Personal incredulity is not reasoning;
2) False logic - "can be used" does not prove "was used";
3) Several missing steps of logic and unsupported conclusion;
4) "Reversed burden of proof" - it is the claimant's responsibility to prove the claim NOT "ours" to disprove PLUS there are logical problems with "prove a negative"

B) Even if they can establish the truth of the claim of the anomaly - there was thermXte, there were banging noises etc -- they still have to prove CD. Most truther claims based on a single anomalous factor IMPLY that if the factor is proved then all the rest needed to prove CD is proved. Nonsense.

And few truther claims even try to add in additional factors -- hence "No Truther has ever published a credible claim for CD"

It is understood that maybe there have been no CDs that actually fell at free fall, at least for the entire collapse. That does not mean it cannot be done. The goal in a CD is to demolish the structure, not generate free fall. I contend that if the goal was to have a structure fall at free fall speed, a good demolitionist could make it happen. I mean if a fire can make it happen, why not a demolitionist?
Maybe. you are confusing "free fall" of part of a building with free fall for the whole. The former expected. The latter very doubtful.
 
Stick with me, I want things to progress fairly quickly from here. Thx.

I think we'll all die of boredom while you 'encourage' people to agree to your rather poorly-worded scenario.

If we all agreed, where do intend to take this discussion?
 
MSM has been covering up the eyewitness reports around that time of a strange 'Mothman' who was seen flying around the Virginia area. After the collapse of the bridge, sightings of the Mothman ceased. Source
The government has never disclosed what secret technology was being tested by the flying man, nor will they discuss the fact of chemtrail poisoning which goes on to this day.

This technology could be a precursor to the instant molecular dissociation of the twin towers on 9/11 - what else could turn filing cabinets, chairs, computers, telephones, and everything else, including ALL the structural steel into a fine powder which simply floated off?

This goes way deeper than you realize. The psychotic delusions, that is.

The Mothman meets 911!

Actually the towers were giant energy accumulators for the MiB and that's why they blew up so spectacularly. Gravity wasn't enough.
 
Get us going?

Your scenario has not shown much; what was the goal? Do you have a road-map, a flight plan, a purpose, a thesis?

You seem to be stuck on CD, and the free-fall stuff, plus more.
http://www.opednews.com/Diary/9-11--Did-Barbara-Olson-r-by-David-Watts-080331-783.html

More free-fall junk,

Preparation for CD? At free-fall?
And implicit free-fall stuff. You are into CD, has this changed?
http://www.opednews.com/Diary/9-11-How-many-virtual-pro-by-David-Watts-080324-705.html

Thus, the old free-fall posts you made and the breaking the law of physics, and the made up law of path of least resistance, are all debunked, and you are moving on, able to debunk CD now? Or will you continue making up lay person engineering to back in CD by getting agreement with with no resolution models.

Have you retracted your old stuff yet? Is 911 and inside job? What is your next step to back in CD? What is after your scenario? 12 years, and CD lost again, and the inside job claims are anti-intellectual claptrap. What is next to ...

The plan is filed in a rusty file cabinet stored in an unused bathroom with a locked door in the basement of an undisclosed building.
 

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