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Is Atheism based on Logic or Faith?

You claimed that consciousness can exist without a physical medium:

I have already addressed this in another post answering someone else.

in short,, show me where I make any such claim. What is it about the phrase "I don't know" that you don't understand?

Saying something 'might be possible' does not constitute a positive assertion.
 
We don't assume it, we observe it.



Again, we don't assume, we observe.

Okay we observe and then assume because there is no way of verifying otherwise. I know I have said as much already.

Now I am fine with the assumption because it is quite natural under the circumstance, but nonetheless it is still assumption and I personally don't gel with assumption morphing into belief. Belief is illogical.

Thus, while I understand the assumption, I do not understand the belief evolving from the assumption.
 
...the point of the argument, which is that an "idea" which does not impinge in any way on the physical can have no meaningful existence in the physical universe.

I have not said that it does or does not. Why are you making the point?
 
Okay we observe and then assume because there is no way of verifying otherwise. I know I have said as much already.

You have claimed it, yes, but you haven't successfully explained why it's an assumption and not an observation.

We observe that humans cannot respirate without lungs. We observe that they cannot think without brains. Why is the former an observation but the latter an assumption?
 
Convention!



But why raise the possibility at all? It also might be possible that the Celestial Teapot exists. But the whole point of Bertrand Russell’s analogy was to refute the idea that the burden of proof lies upon the skeptic to disprove the claims of supernaturalists. By using an intentionally absurd analogy, Russell's Teapot draws attention to the formal logic behind the burden of proof and how it works. The burden of proof rests with you to show why you think it possible that god exists given that you consider it important enough to mention it in the first place.

Russell's Teapot only applies when someone is claiming there is a god. Navigator is an atheist and doesn't claim there is a god.
 
You have claimed it, yes, but you haven't successfully explained why it's an assumption and not an observation.

We observe that humans cannot respirate without lungs. We observe that they cannot think without brains. Why is the former an observation but the latter an assumption?

Because (as I did explain) it is assumed that consciousness is a product of the brain due to the fact that it
cannot be verified not to be but is still possibly something that uses the human and other terrestrial forms.

The assumption (as I explained) is quite acceptable, until it morphs into belief, then it becomes illogical.

So the observations result in assumptions which morph into beliefs in some people.
 
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No! By definition gods are supernatural. The notion of supernatural gods has nothing to do with cyborgs which, although (hypothetically) highly advanced, are nevertheless natural entities.
As navigator has said, god and cyborgs, (or AI) are all equivalent (indistinguishable) when they have the technology to generate universes.

The word Supernatural is meaningless in discussing existence and little better at any other time. As all it is doing is describing a natural event which is not as yet understood by humanity. When an event is understood it ceases to be supernatural, for example lightning.



The only evidence we have is that our universe originated from a form of preexisting energy and matter, probably eternal, known as the zero-state field. This quantum vacuum is observable and has properties, such as random fluctuations from which the universe as we know it emerged. Multiverse theory posits that there are an infinite number of such universes in the greater cosmos
This is all irrelevant and clumsy in this debate. We are discussing intellectual hypotheticals, not the state of our local universe. Nothing we have found out about our local physical universe tells us anything about existence other than the small set of "natural laws" we are exposed to. As I have already pointed out this set is not complete, the degree of incompleteness is not known, or what other natural laws there would be in the set if it were complete.


Do you have credible evidence that some god beliefs are not inventions of human fancy?
Yes, the belief of the people who have (apparently) been contacted directly by this god.
 
Do any other tools exist? Do we have any reason to think science isn't the right tool for the job?

Not as far as I am aware although I think the Ouija might be a good contender for investigative purposes at least as far as consciousness/subconsciousness is concerned because it does produce data which is measurable. As a physical tool which can be modified significantly (from its simplistic common design and purpose) it can be used scientifically.
I doubt that it can be used to convey what god is but know that it is helpful in conveying data useful to the consciousness and exploration of consciousness.

Do we have any reason to think science isn't the right tool for the job?

If the job is to test various ideas on what god is, on the assumption that god is 'supernatural' then no. There are no physical tools able to accomplish this, though if there were, then yes science at least would have to be the method used to operate those hypothetical tools.

Since there are no such tools, then the question is rhetorical.
 
Yes, the belief of the people who have (apparently) been contacted directly by this god.



Since belief is illogical, I personally wouldn't go so far as to say that people who claim to have been contacted directly by 'this god' (whatever that implies) as being credible evidence which isn't undoubtedly a product of human fancy.


"Unknown" [I don't know] is the logical position to take on this. Examination of the data they may share only helps to add to the whole 'what god is' data pool, but cannot be said to be evidence that should god exist then that is what god is, or that (as re your example) it is god which is communicating to them.
 
When you say that consciousness came before the brain,...

I did not say that. I said it might possibly have done. If you continue to misquote me, I will regard you as a dishonest individual and I have no time for dishonest individuals.


...what medium are you proposing as the carrier of the consciousness before it becomes dependent on the brain to generate it (as we have most assuredly found, via the accidental alterations to people's brains that have been found to profoundly alter their consciousnesses)?

The nature of consciousness is not fully known. Consciousness as with all things is subject to ideas of possibilities and is quite possibly the source of all ideas of possibility.

It is possible that something outside the physical universe was responsible for the universes existence. The circular notion of an endlessly regenerating universe (or even an infinite set of physical universes) while interesting don't really convey much in the way of explanation on how this happens, or where consciousness might fit into it all. The circular theory of regenerating universe would suppose that consciousness is part of that regeneration process and it could be argued that the variations of every individual conscious awareness are limitless within the structure of the theory, but it could be argued equally as a theory that we are within a vast (from our perspective) virtual reality mechanism which we as consciousness designed, operate and interact with, just because we can and enjoy the thrill of it all.

Either (and all) theories to do with the fact that we are within this situation we call the physical universe naturally force us to assume that brains produce consciousness and we have no tools to show us otherwise and for all intent and purpose the personalities we love and cherish do desist when their bodies die and are no more physically contributing to our situation (outside our own continued memory of them) and thus we are able to assume they may not exist in some other unknown state of awareness based on what small knowledge and limited tools we have available so far which contribute to our assumptive natures.

For all we know, consciousness is everywhere, and there is nowhere in this universe where it is not. The point being that the assumption that consciousness needs some kind of physical medium in which to operate, and that the universe is practically filled with that medium, we don't even know that it does not reside in the very planet, literally having an experience of being a planet or that its essence is inseparable/indistinguishable, and that form only gives it the illusion of being separate.

Which is to say, your consciousness and my consciousness may well be exactly the same essence and only appear to be different in the framework of physical things and personal experience.

We don't know that consciousness might be exactly 'what god is' even.

Frankly, we don't know much at all, which is precisely why possibilities exist in our thinking processes.



Frankly, I am definitely annoyed at your claiming the superior ground of logic when you resort to this perverse retreat from taking a stance. You are doing the postmodern dance, which I find a bankrupt, and highly irritating, attitude of smug untouchability.

You need to be aware that arguing from an emotional position is contray to good logical argument.
It is muddying the waters and forcing you to make mistakes in judgement and attempt to pin those onto my personality. My position of logic is better ground than belief, I won't deny that, and until it can be shown that 'I don't know or I do know' is not the best position to be in, then it is the best position to be in and your accusation of perversion is nonsense at best and untruthful for that.

That my position makes me 'untouchable' is not here nor there. What are you wanting to achieve in relation to me? Destroy me? Convert me? Attempting to insult me or attempting to blame me for somehow affecting your emotions is empty meaningless untruthful expression. Learn to control your emotions and if you feel that [whatever] is pushing your buttons, then take the opportunity to examine truthfully within your own personality why this is so. You will find the most likely reason is that what I am saying is challenging your beliefs, and beliefs are often precious to those who hold fast to them.

Let your beliefs go and apply the position most honest, which is that you know some things and don't know most things.

Failing that, the best advice I can offer is that you desist with interacting with anything which in your own understand causes you to make such needless expressions
 
Since belief is illogical, I personally wouldn't go so far as to say that people who claim to have been contacted directly by 'this god' (whatever that implies) as being credible evidence which isn't undoubtedly a product of human fancy.
Agreed, the impression I get is that the majority of instances and the majority of mental interpretations of epiphany's are fanciful. But there are a few which are more convincing. But certainly not any kind of scientifically testable evidence.
"Unknown" [I don't know] is the logical position to take on this. Examination of the data they may share only helps to add to the whole 'what god is' data pool, but cannot be said to be evidence that should god exist then that is what god is, or that (as re your example) it is god which is communicating to them.
It may be god or its correlate in communication. For example some phenomena of consciousness akin to what you are considering when you suggest that consciousness may continue after death. Essentially some spiritual phenomena.
 
There isn't any need really to say very much. "I know or I don;t know' seems to be the smallest way to say it.

Anything I don't know is simply that. What I do know is significantly infinitesimal to what I dont know.

You need to desist with saying I am asserting though. The only thing I am asserting is "I know or I don't know"

In relation to unicorns and 'god' one is quite well defined and the other is not, and neither of them am I asserting exist.
What is it that you know and how do you know you know?


Because (as I did explain) it is assumed that consciousness is a product of the brain due to the fact that it cannot be verified not to be but is still possibly something that uses the human and other terrestrial forms.

The assumption (as I explained) is quite acceptable, until it morphs into belief, then it becomes illogical.

So the observations result in assumptions which morph into beliefs in some people.
How do you know this to be true?
 
Well you pick up a proposed holy book and you read it intently and devoutly and if you perceive a burning in your bosom then you will know you're sitting too close to the fire.
I noticed he didn't answer your question, by the way.
 
It may be god or its correlate in communication. For example some phenomena of consciousness akin to what you are considering when you suggest that consciousness may continue after death. Essentially some spiritual phenomena.

Possibly. So far in my investigations consciousness seems to be the dominating factor in relation to god related ideas and points more to the correlate/surrogate.
Proceed with vigilance and caution against belief appears to be the best approach and certainly looking for discrepancies in the data offered or for that matter, in any actions of it being purposefully hidden/distorted especially when questions arise for which answers are vague, defenses raised, etc...its sometimes a high wire act but fun nonetheless....not to forget that humans are involved...and haven't the best rep for truthfulness, or willingness to be truthful.

:)
 
What is it that you know and how do you know you know?


I know that I am conscious, consciousness and in human form. The same way you know you know.



How do you know this to be true?

Because if it were not, then we would all know (unless you are suggesting there is some conspiracy of course, in which case I am prepared to see the data re that).
 
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Russell's Teapot only applies when someone is claiming there is a god. Navigator is an atheist and doesn't claim there is a god.
Navigator made claims of what "possibly" exists (including gods), and demanded I make a case that they did not. Thus Russell's Celestial Teapot argument applies. It is intended to refute the idea that the burden of proof lies upon the skeptic to disprove such claims.
 
Because if it were not, then we would all know (unless you are suggesting there is some conspiracy of course, in which case I am prepared to see the data re that).
I don't think that's necessarily the case that we would all know that consciousness being a product of the brain can be verified.

But you don't seem to know that it's possible to have consciousness verified some time in the future by utilizing the scientific method.
 
Navigator made claims of what "possibly" exists (including gods), and demanded I make a case that they did not. Thus Russell's Celestial Teapot argument applies. It is intended to refute the idea that the burden of proof lies upon the skeptic to disprove such claims.

Tassman, don't lie about what it is I said. I neither claimed or demanded.
 

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