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Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Yes, I can see an awful lot of bias and selective blindness on the pro-guilt side. Maresca seemed to be counting on it in his speech today accusing Knox of "extreme sex", and also of raising funds in Meredith's name on her website. Its nonsense, but will he be listened to?

Do people here who have been following this case have any predictions about what way this court will rule?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It will be obvious after the verdict.
However the pattern seems to be that these trials are predetermined.
1. Massei and Mignini are close friends according to Michelle Moore, and these appear, to all intents and purposes, to be judge only trials, thus guilty, then shoe horn the facts in.
2. Hellmann avoided wasting time on fresh evidence, as he had already studied the case intently. He had decided before the trial to acquit bar a bombshell or smoking gun.
3. Nencini the same. He also ridiculed the prosecution for not putting Sollecito on the stand when he was available in court, clearly believing Sollecito would have acquitted himself superbly, and making his job easier.
He followed the narrow instructions of ISC to test a knife and a witness, both of which inconveniently for the prosecution steadfastly didn't yield, and rejected all defence requests to examine serious aspects such as the pillow stain. It is inconceivable he would expose himself to the risk of censure from the ECHR for this, therefore he must/will acquit.
Add to this that the ISC will have nothing to appeal with his narrow approach.

This is my opinion, I hope others have a go, Charlie clearly disagrees, and is far more knowledgeable than me.
 
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Did I miss this entire thing being shown to be real? As I understand it one story in a minor paper is all that this whole kerfuffle is based on.

As I've said before this kind of stuff on both sides has been very frustrating.

Recently Tesla was talking about the gold watch of Rudy's neighbor that was found in Rudy's backpack but disappeared. The problem with that is that the only source that has been found was Nina Burleigh.
<snip>


You should really read her book Grinder!
She might be the only English language source, but I'd betcha that the fire was covered by the local Italian newspapers...
 
LondonJohn said:
PS: Perhaps Machiavelli (or anyone else for that matter) would be so kind as to point me to the part of the transcript of Guede's Skype conversation with Benedetti in which Guede states that he is going to return to Italy to give himself up to the police.

You see, my problem is that the only relevant part of the conversation that I can currently find is this:

Benedetti:
But if you have nothing to do with it why don't you come back? I'll help you to find a good lawyer who can clear things up.

Guede:
I'm afraid. But I don't want to stay in Germany, I'm black and if the police catch me I don't know what they might do to me. I prefer Italian jails.

And that doesn't sound at all like Guede saying he's coming back to Italy to give himself up (unless the reader has no reasoning skills and an inbuilt bias of some sort....). But perhaps I'm missing another part of the Skype conversation in which Guede does explicitly say he is going to return to Italy to give himself up to the police. I don't know.


Hi LondonJohn,
Add this from Guede:
I was wearing jeans that night. I took them to Dusseldorf for washing. The rest of my clothes can be found in my flat in Perugia.

A.D.R.
I have been in Germany two weeks. One time, in Munich in Bavaria, I was stopped and checked by the police to whom I said that I would remain only one night.

A.D.R.
One time, in Stuttgart, I was subjected to fingerprinting and, on the advice of some colored people, I gave false information. I must repeat that this was another time that I was completely confused. These colored people also advised me to apply for asylum.

Source:
Rudy Guede, statement to German authorities, Koblenz, Nov. 21, 2007.
Link: http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/04/28/rudy-guede-amanda-knox-was-not-there/
 
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Hey Machiavelli,
Was the drug user down below, Giacomo S, Meredith's boyfriend,
ever arrested and convicted for growing marijuana?
 
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It will be obvious after the verdict.
However the pattern seems to be that these trials are predetermined.
1. Massei and Mignini are close friends according to Michelle Moore, and these appear, to all intents and purposes, to be judge only trials, thus guilty, then shoe horn the facts in.
2. Hellmann avoided wasting time on fresh evidence, as he had already studied the case intently. He had decided before the trial to acquit bar a bombshell or smoking gun.
3. Nencini the same. He also ridiculed the prosecution for not putting Sollecito on the stand when he was available in court, clearly believing Sollecito would have acquitted himself superbly, and making his job easier.
He followed the narrow instructions of ISC to test a knife and a witness, both of which inconveniently for the prosecution steadfastly didn't yield, and rejected all defence requests to examine serious aspects such as the pillow stain. It is inconceivable he would expose himself to the risk of censure from the ECHR for this, therefore he must/will acquit.
Add to this that the ISC will have nothing to appeal with his narrow approach.

This is my opinion, I hope others have a go, Charlie clearly disagrees, and is far more knowledgeable than me.

I am nervous about the outcome, but as a (UK) admirer of President Obama, always felt he should win the second election, based mainly on The New York Times' Nate Silver's statistics. But watching Fox News and the general confidence of pollsters such as Dick Morris and from the Romney camp I did doubt myself. With hindsight Obama won fairly easily and as predicted. I feel (with the common sense Hellmann motivations as my guide along with the general quality of posts on this site and comparing to the censored PGP sites) that Amanda and Raffaele will win their appeal, but I am, I confess, a bit daunted by the onslaught of the PGP community.
 
There isn't anything like that in Curatolo's testimony.

I understand you have some doubts about Hellmann's interpretation of the evidence, but I believe Hellmann is not lying when he draws upon Curatolo's own words. It would be very helpful if you could kindly link me to the actual transcripts where Curatolo is giving evidence in the trial and the appeal. You have failed to convince me that Curatolo is anything other than unreliable.
 
Maresca's little stunt

In some ways, I hate Maresca more than anyone else connected with this case.
His little stunt in the appeal court, however, showed more than what an evil man he is, though.
It shows why the evidenciary phase of a proceeding should happen prior to, and separately from, the sentencing phase. It takes an unusually analytic and ordered mind to separate 'did this person commit this crime?' from 'is this a brutal crime, the perpatrator of which should be severely punished?', especially when confronted with this kind of visceral imagery. If you had lay judges who worked in a system which sees really high levels of extremely brutal, violent crime (South Africa springs to mind), then you could argue that a lay judge might have the ability to consistently separate these questions. But in Italy? Not so much.
Maresca has the freedom in the Italian system to focus on the crime, not on whether the defendants actually committed the crime. It's underhand and prejudicial....
 
A sexual meeting between Knox and Guede is something that belongs to my personal speculation as to a scenario that explain the crime. It is not a prosecution argument.
The prosecution never attempted to deal with an explanation of details about the meeting between Knox and Guede. This kind of things are not really important in a courtroom, they matter only to those people who want to know about "explanations", about what people think about "narratives of the crime". They are relevant to discuss with those people who depict the personality of the accused as "incompatible" with such kind of scenarios/situations.

My personal speculation is that Mignini is so pro-Rudy as his eye has been turned by 'the most beautiful black man' - and he is expecting sexual favours on his release. And this is no more ridiculous than your speculation

And nobody taking heroin could make a positive identification from 30m at night. Heroin commonly causes double vision - but more importantly causes pin point pupils, which severely impairs your night vision. It is just not believable that he is able to recognise two people he has never met. And this is not even taking into account his likely cognitive impairment from years of drug and alcohol abuse.
 
And nobody taking heroin could make a positive identification from 30m at night. Heroin commonly causes double vision - but more importantly causes pin point pupils, which severely impairs your night vision. It is just not believable that he is able to recognise two people he has never met. And this is not even taking into account his likely cognitive impairment from years of drug and alcohol abuse.

Besides which, heroin is a soporific. It makes people sleepy, not alert and aware. Curatolo would have been much more "super" as a witness if his drug of choice had not tended to make him pass out.
 
Besides which, heroin is a soporific. It makes people sleepy, not alert and aware. Curatolo would have been much more "super" as a witness if his drug of choice had not tended to make him pass out.

Exactly

http://www.drugfree.org/drug-guide/heroin

As well as the extremely poor (likely blurry) night vision, long term heroin use is also likely to affect your eyesight in a variety of ways. Pinpoint pupils also make it harder to see at a distance

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15598191/

http://www.drugrehabfl.net/2012/09/28/addiction-and-drug-abuse-the-effect-on-your-eyes/
 
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In some ways, I hate Maresca more than anyone else connected with this case.
His little stunt in the appeal court, however, showed more than what an evil man he is, though.
It shows why the evidenciary phase of a proceeding should happen prior to, and separately from, the sentencing phase. It takes an unusually analytic and ordered mind to separate 'did this person commit this crime?' from 'is this a brutal crime, the perpatrator of which should be severely punished?', especially when confronted with this kind of visceral imagery. If you had lay judges who worked in a system which sees really high levels of extremely brutal, violent crime (South Africa springs to mind), then you could argue that a lay judge might have the ability to consistently separate these questions. But in Italy? Not so much.
Maresca has the freedom in the Italian system to focus on the crime, not on whether the defendants actually committed the crime. It's underhand and prejudicial....

Absolutely!
 
Exactly

http://www.drugfree.org/drug-guide/heroin

As well as the extremely poor (likely blurry) night vision, long term heroin use is also likely to affect your eyesight in a variety of ways. Pinpoint pupils also make it harder to see at a distance

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15598191/

http://www.drugrehabfl.net/2012/09/28/addiction-and-drug-abuse-the-effect-on-your-eyes/

Let's not overstate our case. Pin-point pupils do not make for blurry vision - in fact the reverse. What they do mean is faint vision in low light, which is not the same thing.

Again I don't think in principle that testimony from drug users is not to be trusted, but of course the circumstances here would require an alertness which would not be expected even from a sober person.
 
Let's not overstate our case. Pin-point pupils do not make for blurry vision - in fact the reverse. What they do mean is faint vision in low light, which is not the same thing.

Again I don't think in principle that testimony from drug users is not to be trusted, but of course the circumstances here would require an alertness which would not be expected even from a sober person.

Distance vision would likely be blurred - you constrict your pupils to focus on close objects (part of accommodation reflex) so he was probably able to read OK, however, distance vision would have been affected. Part of the reason babies are only able to see a short distance is that they can't dilate their pupils very well
 
Nah, it just means the Byzantine machinations of the Italian Court System don't really interest me and it doesn't matter much that I may have some terminology wrong. I do recognize when my argument is dodged and what I get back amounts to semantic quibbling however.

Everything that happened afterward was based on the evidence Mignini presented in court in Rudy's trial. The result of the rest of his appeals process flowed from the case Mignini brought against him, and also ended up affecting Raffaele and Amanda's trial as well, including that they had to stand trial at all.

My evidence for this can be summed up quite simply from the fact that Rudy was cleared of the theft and Raffaele and Amanda were convicted of it despite the evidence. Again: Rudy left his DNA all over and around the owner of what was stolen, including her purse, and he was the one who really needed money and stuff to sell and they did not. Then there's the recent thefts Rudy was involved in that Mignini failed to prosecute, despite him piling charges on Raffaele and Amanda as well as their families on specious evidential grounds.

Because of the way Mignini prosecuted it! He was the one responsible for adducing the evidence in court and he did so in a way that excused Rudy Guede from participating much in the crime, despite all the evidence that would objectively place him in the forefront (being as he was the only one involved that would kinda figure) but even someone who wanted to include Raffaele and Amanda could have prosecuted the case against Rudy fairly, and Mignini most certainly did not do that.

If it is not possible that means expecting a (final) sentence against anyone that amounts to more than the 16 years Rudy got is basically impossible, and we both know that isn't true. Taking fast track cannot be a guarantee of a mere 16 year sentence.

I’m not saying wrong in semantics; you are wrong on the very substance.
The plain facts are: Knox and Sollecito were convicted and got the very same sentencing reduction of Guede, however they got it on their first trial, while Guede got mitigation only on his appeal. So their treatment was more favourable than Guede’s. These are the plain facts.

For some reason you decide to ignore this obvious datum.

You want to make an argument that is: Guede obtained his reduction because he was not found guilty of theft of the cell phones (actually the charge is unlawful appropriation). Such argument is manifestly ludicrous, if you look just how irrelevant this charge was as for Knox and Sollecito’s sentencing. They were found guilty of unlawfully removing the cell phones, while they were found not guilty of removing cash money on grounds of lack of proof. The reason why they were found guilty of this is because they were found guilty of staging, sidetracking (cleaning-up and altering the scene); they are considered guilty of the removal of items only insofar as part of a staging activity. Guede is not charged with staging and cleaning up in the accusation scenario, hence he cannot be logically connected with removing the cell phones.

But this specific action of “theft” was manifestly irrelevant in the sentencing of Knox and Sollecito (the whole charges of the staging activities all together raised the sentencing up to 25 years from 24). However, despite its manifest irrelevancy in their sentencing, something which rests before your eyes, you decide that this is the cause for which Guede got 16 years instead of 30. It’s something totally ludicrous.

Incidentally, I see that because you are having problems in building an argument, you resort to going off topic. It seems that your “actual” arguments is that you just don’t like the prosecution scenario. Because you think Guede’s DNA was “all over” the place, that there was alleged “evidence” that he committed a theft, that the two are good kids etc.
So you are basically resorting to a circular reasoning: you build a theory that there was a deal between Guede and the prosecution, that he was prosecuted in a “different way”, only based on your assumption that you think that Guede should have been accused of being the lone perpetrator and that the other two should be considered innocent. In other words your idea that Guede got only 16 years because of a favourable treatment from the prosecution, is a petition principii, a rationalization through a circular reasoning.

A few side facts: it is not true that Guede’s DNA was found “all over” the murder scene; it was only found in four instances, and the amount of it was incredibly small, in some of them smaller than the knife DNA. Actually in some only a compatibility on the Y-haplotype was found.
There is also no evidence that Guede ever grabbed the cell-phones; his DNA on the external side of Meredith’s purse is certainly no sufficient evidence of theft. There is no DNA of Guede on her wallet nor in the inside of her purse, nor on drawers nor elsewhere where on things burglar should have touched, and one of Meredith’s cell phones was actually elsewhere, in the pocket of her trousers (btw, how could a thieve know that he had two cell phones?).

How about a more likely answer: they won because Mignini tanked the evidence against Rudy in his trial. What are the ones involved in the rest of the fast track process to rely on if the proper evidence is not adduced in the original trial?

There is nothing here that is to be considered "likely" vs. "unlikely": the trial fact are manifest, written in the trial paprs before your eyes.
The prosecution request of 30 years in Guede appeal is before your eyes. The fact that the charge of unlawful appropriation is irrelevant and only related to staging is before your eyes. The fact that the two other suspects got a more favourable outcome (they got the same reduction in their first instance instead of their appeal) is before your eyes.
 
Distance vision would likely be blurred - you constrict your pupils to focus on close objects (part of accommodation reflex) so he was probably able to read OK, however, distance vision would have been affected. Part of the reason babies are only able to see a short distance is that they can't dilate their pupils very well

Let's not get into an argument about this but your assertions are simply wrong. Constricted pupils mean sharper vision all round, and it only takes a little understanding of optics to see why: a narrow beam of light gives less possibility of a spreading of the image, which is what blurring is.

It's dilated pupils that can give blurry vision, because the wider light beam requires more precise focussing. The considerations are the same for both near and far vision.
 
I’m not saying wrong in semantics; you are wrong on the very substance.
The plain facts are: Knox and Sollecito were convicted and got the very same sentencing reduction of Guede, however they got it on their first trial, while Guede got mitigation only on his appeal. So their treatment was more favourable than Guede’s. These are the plain facts.

For some reason you decide to ignore this obvious datum.

<...... sinister deletia ......>

Kaosium said:
How about a more likely answer: they won because Mignini tanked the evidence against Rudy in his trial. What are the ones involved in the rest of the fast track process to rely on if the proper evidence is not adduced in the original trial?

There is nothing here that is to be considered "likely" vs. "unlikely": the trial fact are manifest, written in the trial paprs before your eyes.
The prosecution request of 30 years in Guede appeal is before your eyes. The fact that the charge of unlawful appropriation is irrelevant and only related to staging is before your eyes. The fact that the two other suspects got a more favourable outcome (they got the same reduction in their first instance instead of their appeal) is before your eyes.

Everyone please read the highlighted part.

If one wishes a definition of dietrology, it's hidden somewhere there. Fact is, Guede got 16 years, Knox got 26 years (one year for calunnia) and Sollecito got 25 years.

Every time Machiavelli makes a bald-faced, untrue assertion my own conspiratorial little mind goes into gear. It's a bit like trying to understand North Korean politics.... is it for Machiavelli a sign of supreme confidence that he can slip these past people, or is it a sign of desperation?

I've given up trying to understand Machiavelli and/or his reasons for posting this (word won't get past mods here).

Why tell a small lie? The big lie will be believed by the same number of people as the small lie, and will get better results from those fools. Gee, I read that somewhere.
 
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Nencini's dim view of Amanda's email

"Who wants to speak at a trial, comes to the trial," Nencini said, adding that he had to take it at the word of her lawyers that the email, printed over five pages, originated with Knox. "I never saw her, I don't know her," the judge said pointedly.

I do hope that Amanda's absence has more positive repercussions (focus on the evidence) than negative (Nencini's rather worrying attitude towards Knox.)
 
"Who wants to speak at a trial, comes to the trial," Nencini said, adding that he had to take it at the word of her lawyers that the email, printed over five pages, originated with Knox. "I never saw her, I don't know her," the judge said pointedly.

I do hope that Amanda's absence has more positive repercussions (focus on the evidence) than negative (Nencini's rather worrying attitude towards Knox.)

The question is why... Rudy got his letter read, Sure, he was physically present, but if he can't be cross examined what difference does that make?! Colour me confused.
 
They don't need to be swayed. They are going through the motions of a trial. I assume they will render a guilty verdict because that is what the high court has instructed them to do.

Then they can put out a warrant, knowing the US probably won't extradite her, and that way they can blame America. Amanda is just like the fighter jocks and the CIA agents! Their political faction will lap it up. It's exactly what they want to hear. Michael Winterbottom will make his movie about the guilty American girl and her evil PR machine versus the wise and incorruptible Italian magistrates. Machiavelli will blather on about the subtleties of the legal code and the superior understanding of Amanda's character he has gleaned from media reports.

Raffaele will have to hide out in the Caribbean.

She's working for the US government?
 
Let's not get into an argument about this but your assertions are simply wrong. Constricted pupils mean sharper vision all round, and it only takes a little understanding of optics to see why: a narrow beam of light gives less possibility of a spreading of the image, which is what blurring is.

It's dilated pupils that can give blurry vision, because the wider light beam requires more precise focussing. The considerations are the same for both near and far vision.

I believe you are schooling a medical doctor.

Heroin. Individuals suffering from heroin addiction and drug abuse may have tightly constricted pupils. Their pupils will not respond to low light, impairing vision. In addition the constriction of the blood vessels, can lead to loss of vision or blurred vision. -
 
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