Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[moodstream]

It reminds me of Paolo Franceschetti, a lawyer who is used to make reasoning like this one:

The Red Brigdes had a pentacle as their simbol. The Italian Republic also has a pentacle as a symbol. The pentacle is an ancient exoteric and masonic symbol. So, to conclude, there is an implicit admission that the Red Brigades and the Italian State are the same entity and they act on behalf of the same organization inspired by masonic values....

I think this straight forward supposition is called dietrology, at least. Actually it can be called conspiracy theory paradigm.

Either way, it's a great example of "Massei logic"!

 

[Supernaut]

Talking about dietrology.
Linking the unlinked things. By oriented connectors "it's a virtual conceding that....". This is basic dietrology for beginners.

This "dietrologica" or dietrology; the word itself connotes a "science".

In Italy, do you have such a thing as a "doctor of dietrology" (snigger)?

 

[RandyN]

I think the reasoning of Massei is logically correct. And I think the objection LJ offers doesn't stand, it's not consistent, especially when you look at the physical findings.

OK... Massei and "logically correct" cant be used in the same sentence... in any country of the world cept Italy. There anything goes... Ship captains steer 100 millions worth of ship and passengers into rocks that have been charted for centuries I expect....oh and then the Italian trips and falls into a lifeboat meanwhile 30 plus of his passengers are dying. Also the "logical" land of arresting scientists for failing to predict an earthquake. The double body swap and shrunken pants of a Mason which leads to the arrest and nightmare of a family and friends of a poor suicide victim...should we bother with Sara Scazzi's confessed killer who remains free while the innocent aunt and cousin are in jail? Or the whole village that joined the case and spit on...yes they spit on people in Italy...the cousin and aunt....well the heathens also slap girls while questioning them so I guess nothing should be a surprise...all from the ancestors that crucified Christ! More proof that evolution is a lie. Italy seems to be devolving.

 

[Poppy1016]

I am not so sure about the literate part. Murdering anyone one is despicable, I grant you, but lying to save his butt at the expense of others is a sad but typical part of the human story. I guess I don't find that evil. I don't know if he is intelligent or not, but, I will tell you one thing for sure, if you let only the most intelligent people run the world they will rob you blind. There is a big difference between character and intelligence. Not that Guede has any character.

But I will ask you to consider this. I hope it makes you feel good to be able to declare Guede to be evil, because it doesn't accomplish anything else. And, frankly, I am not so sure that he is more evil than you or me. You don't know what it is like to be him. You don't see the world that he sees. You are not being driven by the same latent inner reality that he is. I think you want good to consist of his overcoming that to be more like you. But he may not have the capacity to do that, and, he may understanding himself, probably correctly, as being different in a way that he cannot help but that always leads him back to needing to steal to survive. A powerful set of internalized forces drove Guede for a long time and led to the circumstance that led to the murder. Can you say a better man would have risen above those forces and circumstances? Okay, fine. Guede was not a better man than his life circumstances. Is that evil, or just unfortunate?

All I can say is wow.

 

[RWVBWL]

Them stairs...

Greetings,
So I'm trying to figure something out,
can you folks help me?

Where,
in relation to Meredith's flat, are the stairs that Alessandra Formica +friend where walking down
when they bumped into a person of color the night Meredith was murdered?


This pic from PS has me wondering:


"It was an instant for Alessandra Formica and her boyfriend.
At about 22:30 of November 1, they are descending the stairs of via della Pergola that lead to viale S.Antonio, where their car is parked and where the cottage is. Suddenly a guy who walks in the rush, coming up, bumps into them and runs away. They wouldn't know in that moment but that man could be a murderer."


Ok,
so I'm curious where this stairway is in relation to Nara's metal stairs.
This link takes you to alotta pix of Nara's apartment, the metal stairs, the parking lot across from Meredith's flat:
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmkphotosperugia/C94/

But still,
I don't see that same stairway that Alessandra used
I'm not sure where Formica's stairway is.
Some of you have looked quite alot at this area.

I've used Google map the check the area out:
https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF...aly&ei=Iv-sUqOmDsLEoATcxoHACA&ved=0CCoQxB0wAA



Check out these pix:


This shows what I believe to be the same stairway.
If so, it runs right next to the basketball court and Curatolo's bench.

What do you think?


This aerial photo shows the distances well:




And this photo, with Nara's metal stairs, also shows the distance:



Are the stairs that Alessandra Formica walked down the same ones I found?
Rudy Guede says that he walked past the basketball court after leaving Meredith to die.
Some believe that he ran into Miss Formica, though she stated in court that it was not him.
But if those are the stairs...

If you believe that she is mistaken,
and it was indeed Rudy Guede she bumped into as she walked downstairs to get her car,
then who was it that ran up Nara's metal stairs, quite a little walk away, that she claims to have heard?

AK+RS were supposedly seen by Curatolo from 9:28pm until, what 12:00am?
So it wasn't AK+RS that Nara heard, right Guilters?
Hmmmm...



PS-A tip: If ya ever wanted to repost a photo that I've posted, such as say this 1,
[qimg]http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/841/pfio.jpg[/qimg]
just quote the message,,
remove the q from , seen twice,
copy+paste it in your own new post.:)
L8, RW

 

[Dan O.]

Don’t you think that, instead, I maybe keep some evidence files?

Perhaps even a recording or two

 

[js202]

I am not so sure about the literate part. Murdering anyone one is despicable, I grant you, but lying to save his butt at the expense of others is a sad but typical part of the human story. I guess I don't find that evil. I don't know if he is intelligent or not, but, I will tell you one thing for sure, if you let only the most intelligent people run the world they will rob you blind. There is a big difference between character and intelligence. Not that Guede has any character.

But I will ask you to consider this. I hope it makes you feel good to be able to declare Guede to be evil, because it doesn't accomplish anything else. And, frankly, I am not so sure that he is more evil than you or me. You don't know what it is like to be him. You don't see the world that he sees. You are not being driven by the same latent inner reality that he is. I think you want good to consist of his overcoming that to be more like you. But he may not have the capacity to do that, and, he may understanding himself, probably correctly, as being different in a way that he cannot help but that always leads him back to needing to steal to survive. A powerful set of internalized forces drove Guede for a long time and led to the circumstance that led to the murder. Can you say a better man would have risen above those forces and circumstances? Okay, fine. Guede was not a better man than his life circumstances. Is that evil, or just unfortunate?

Rudy Guede's *actions* as he escalated from mere house robbery to the savage butchery and rape of Meredith Kercher as she lay dying were indisputably evil. Further, his scheming, apparently aided and abetted by Mignini, to implicate two innocent persons in a crime he alone committed is repugnant and evil. Full stop.

This should not be complicated; but, the internet demographic being what it is, a range of mostly anonymous personalities with too much time on their hands find ways to make it so.

To clarify, any parsing of Rudy Guede's mere actions is relativistic flimflam and exists as an insult to the very fiber of civilization. It is fundamentally offensive nonsense to in any way mitigate or shade the actions that this free citizen Guede freely took. If, aside from for the sake of internet discussion, we cannot agree on this, we are lost.

 

[kwill]

Well, it's simple: the Guede first instance trial was Knox and Sollecito's preliminary hearing phase. They took part actively to all its hearing sessions.
Yes they could cross-question all the witnesses. They could bring in evidence (they did, as I explained), there are some time limitations due to the fact that it is a short track trial, so they could not present like a long list of witnsses. They called Torre, for example.
They obviously accessed all documentation from the prosecution file that was entered in the trial, from both the investigation and the trial.

So, they could cross-question witnesses, but could they call their own? Could they interview the defendant? How severe were the time limitations, and would those limitations have prevented these attorneys from presenting a complete case? It's my understanding that there is to this day prosecution documentation that remains undisclosed and unseen by the defense . . . so having what was "entered in the trial" might possibly be meaningless.

I am getting a serious impression that the right of defendants is not taken very seriously, at least in this instance.

Within the proceedings against Guede, the basic setting of charges could not be challenged, that's clear. There was nobody there any more with a specific interest to really challenge the collaborative murder scenario.

Exactly. There was nobody with a specific interest to really challenge the collaborative murder with sexual assault scenario. I see this as a big problem, in spite of what you say above about Guede's (time-limited) first instance trial being A & R's preliminary hearing phase. I'm not sure what exactly that means. Guede's trial lasted for only a couple of months, isn't that right?

But that one was an appeal by Guede agaisnt his previous conviction, it's something with a much more limited scope.
However, the appeal judges have a duty to investigate and do fact findings if they think there are unconvincing aspects in the first instance decision. So they theoretically could have challenged the basic setting.
They instead decided to accept it, they maybe even emphasized the minor role of Guede by awarding him generic mitigation.

So much, then, rests on the talents and motivations of the appeal judges. I find their acceptance of the collaborative murder with sexual assault scenario very troubling, given the overwhelming evidence against one participant and the very marginal & doubtful evidence against anyone else. To "maybe even emphasize" the minor role of Guede under those circumstances -- based on the facts in evidence -- is borderline criminal. "Poor Rudy" -- spoken by the prosecutor -- is just unforgivable.

This is a very very personal opinion of yours. And in my opinion you come to a totally unfounded conclusion.

Obviously that's your opinion.

I began to doubt that Amanda Knox had anything to do with this crime on the day I learned that she had been working a number of part time jobs here in Seattle to fund the trip to Italy. This seemed to me not to be consistent with the sort of young woman who would be likely to lose her mind or soul within weeks of arriving in the foreign country she had worked so hard to get to. And nothing I've read or heard anywhere since then has changed my mind about that. What's more, every single piece of physical evidence either points toward her innocence or has been compromised by inadequate and unprofessional handling.

If only they had taped her overnight interview. If only they had been careful to keep the crime scene under control. If only they had carefully searched and photographed the area under Filomena's window. If only they had taped Raffaele's overnight interview. If only they had collected the clasp with all the rest of the evidence. If only they had observed international standards in their DNA tests.

It goes on and on.

Anyway, I believe that the fast-tracking of the Guede trial had exactly the same sort of impact on this case that some plea bargains have here in the USA. One person buys himself some mercy from the court in exchange for implicating others. Sometimes it works out for all, when the implicated others are actually guilty. This time, the fast-tracker pulled what we would call a fast one. He's going to get a way with murder.

 

[RWVBWL]

Aha,
so I'm startin' to get a feel for the area, I think.


The last 3 photo's on the bottom from this link:
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmkphotosperugia/C94/

show a different view of the basketball court,
show what it'd be like looking downward where Alessandra Formica probably walked to get her car,
show someone kickin' it on the side of the basketball court I believe.

Gosh,
I really feel for old Nara, heck havin' to listen to all those people walkin' up and down those metal stairs, plus being able to hear loud noises comin' from the cottage across the street where those college kids live, well it must drive ol' Nara nuts!

But I find it weird to visualize AK+RS running all the way over to climb Nara's metal stairway if they were hangin' out where Curatolo could see 'em all night.

Weird too how Curatolo didn't see nor hear Guede passing thru the area, nor Formica...

 

[moodstream]

Greetings,
So I'm trying to figure something out,
can you folks help me?

Where,
in relation to Meredith's flat, are the stairs that Alessandra Formica +friend where walking down
when they bumped into a person of color the night Meredith was murdered?



Are the stairs that Alessandra Formica walked down the same ones I found?
Rudy Guede says that he walked past the basketball court after leaving Meredith to die.
Some believe that he ran into Miss Formica, though she stated in court that it was not him.
But if those are the stairs...

If you believe that she is mistaken,
and it was indeed Rudy Guede she bumped into as she walked downstairs to get her car,
then who was it that ran up Nara's metal stairs, quite a little walk away, that she claims to have heard?

AK+RS were supposedly seen by Curatolo from 9:28pm until, what 12:00am?
So it wasn't AK+RS that Nara heard, right Guilters?
Hmmmm...

RWVBWL.

I am surprised to find that you still hope to make your points using ordinary "western" logic. Or eastern logic, or middle eastern logic, northern logic, southern logic, or any other previously known earth based logic.

No, what's called for here is exoplanetary GUILTER!(tm) logic. Clearly Guede went one way, and RS + AK went the other, and then, well lets see, we could say they turned invisible and flew back to the cottage, but that could be disproved using your rather mundane earth based logic, so, let's just say they found their way back to the cottage later, going down the stone steps back to the cottage. Curatolo just did not happen to see them going that way. He can't be watching all the time. And then they came back up the stone steps, and then went back down, cause that way Curatolo could have seen them, and why, uh, why, well, uh, let me think, ... I'll have to use rule 2 here (see below), hmm. give me a minute.

Now, applying the first rule of exo-earth guilter logic - if it can't be disproved it must be true - then we can say this is probably definitely what happened, maybe. If you can disprove this scenario, then we'll just use guilter rule two: when fantasies are ruined by facts .... slow down ... and remember, a good guilter keeps an endless supply of (sh**)baloney stuffed up his/her (its?) behind. Squeezed it out for as long as needed to snake a line of it into a shape which fits rule one.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hiya Moodstream,
Here's some more surfer logic:
I find it weird that a Pro-Guilt Person who posts here often would think that Rudy Guede would not have chosen to break-in thru Filomena's window, because there was a slight chance that someone could have seen him do so from the roadway, as the window was slightly exposed. The guy has dark skin. Probably wore dark clothes too...

Yet Amanda and Raff are supposed to have not given a damn if anybody saw them that night after a murder had been committed and went running around that parking lot and up the metal stairs makin' all kinds of noise that heck, the old lady even heard and then came back down the other way and hung out, in the open, for hours where any passer-by, resident or hobo high on heroin, coulda seen them? Sure...
RW


PS-Powerful piece earlier about your thoughts on Guede's upbringin', very impressed. Peace...

 

[Bill Williams]

There are no other more compelling explanations, that is the only problem.

And you are dietrologist #1 on this forum.

Perhaps the solution to all this, Machiavelli, is if you highlight in yellow the things you say, which you will deny you said at a later date. You may wish to use a differing colour for those things you will nuance out of existence if challenged.

See, "nuance" IS a verb!

In any event, giving us a heads-up on the things you say, which you'll stick with, will be helpful and cut down on the number of posts in the forum.

 

[JREF2010]

It must be difficult for the prosecution to keep track of 500 contradicting scenarios they presented for the same case.

 

[davefoc]

Perhaps the solution to all this, Machiavelli, is if you highlight in yellow the things you say, which you will deny you said at a later date. You may wish to use a differing colour for those things you will nuance out of existence if challenged.

See, "nuance" IS a verb!

In any event, giving us a heads-up on the things you say, which you'll stick with, will be helpful and cut down on the number of posts in the forum.

Bill, this has been a long running theme of yours and I'm not sure it's fair. I hesitate to get involved, but if it is to continue I would hope that the posts you make on this subject in the future include the original quotes that you are basing the claim on.

 

[davefoc]

...

Yet Amanda and Raff are supposed to have not given a damn if anybody saw them that night after a murder had been committed and went running around that parking lot and up the metal stairs makin' all kinds of noise that heck, the old lady even heard and then came back down the other way and hung out, in the open, for hours where any passer-by, resident or hobo high on heroin, coulda seen them? Sure...
RW

I think somebody earlier in this thread made the insightful point that the arguments about how Guede wouldn't have picked this window to force entry through could be turned and used to argue at least as well that AK and RS wouldn't have picked this window to stage a break-in. Who was that guy making that insightful point?

Your argument supports that guy's point pretty well, whoever he is.

 

[acbytesla]

You'd better be careful, acbytesla. You may be sharing a cell with Machiavelli who's claimed that Hellmann is corrupt, and even claims to know how many Euros it took (passed to him by The Masons) to purposely throw the verdict!

Now you're calling Crini a moron.

Ok... which one of us likes Crini best? Me, I think he's in an untenable position. But then again he could win this. I mean, this IS Italy!

Your position is different: Crini is taking the position of, "Who are you going to believe: me, or your lying eyes?"

I think my position is better - he knows the DNA evidence is lost, and if that is lost then the Italian judiciary has been keeping that ridiculous knife in play for 6 years for no reason.

Me; I'd like Machiavelli to at least agree that no one has been embarrassed enough to have claimed a "compatibility" between the knife and bedsheet outline until now, whatever the definition of "dietrology" is. Not even Mignini, and Mignini told some whoppers... just not this one.

So between you and me Crini is either a desperate prosecutor being tossed an untenable case, or he's a moron!

I suddenly feel for the Kerchers. They deserve justice here, and neither Crini nor Machiavelli is giving it to them.

First off Bill, I live in the US. Calling someone a moron in the US does not constitute defamation. It's an opinion. So, I am not committing an offense and Italy's long arm of the law does not reach the US.

Two, I can appreciate your opinion about Crini. Your argument that he's just doing his job may have some merit. But I don't agree. Crini droned on for a very long time and posited new arguments that were/are moronic that had no proof. Doing his job does not mean he has to make idiotic arguments and the poop argument may just be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

I certainly wouldn't want my name associated with such a dumb idea.

 

[davefoc]

First off Bill, I live in the US. Calling someone a moron in the US does not constitute defamation. It's an opinion. So, I am not committing an offense and Italy's long arm of the law does not reach the US.

Two, I can appreciate your opinion about Crini. Your argument that he's just doing his job may have some merit. But I don't agree. Crini droned on for a very long time and posited new arguments that were/are moronic that had no proof. Doing his job does not mean he has to make idiotic arguments and the poop argument may just be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

I certainly wouldn't want my name associated with such a dumb idea.

It seems likely that Crini volunteered for this role. I think that supports your idea a bit here acbytesla, Crini is responsible for his own poop.

I would really like to hear what some of the other prosecutor's think about what Crini is doing. My guess is that at least some of them passed on the opportunity to be involved with this trial. Perhaps not their bravest moment, but a choice I would probably have made. The upside is that you might curry favor with the powers that be and help your career, the downside is that you might look like an idiot and all the favor currying isn't going to save you from making a mess out of your career.

 

[moodstream]

Rudy Guede's *actions* as he escalated from mere house robbery to the savage butchery and rape of Meredith Kercher as she lay dying were indisputably evil. Further, his scheming, apparently aided and abetted by Mignini, to implicate two innocent persons in a crime he alone committed is repugnant and evil. Full stop.

This should not be complicated; but, the internet demographic being what it is, a range of mostly anonymous personalities with too much time on their hands find ways to make it so.

To clarify, any parsing of Rudy Guede's mere actions is relativistic flimflam and exists as an insult to the very fiber of civilization. It is fundamentally offensive nonsense to in any way mitigate or shade the actions that this free citizen Guede freely took. If, aside from for the sake of internet discussion, we cannot agree on this, we are lost.

I don't think the thread should divert too far from the case, and I do respect your views. I realized I was not going to make it as a philosopher when in college, asked to read from a book by Sartre, I began on p 50, read for 3 hours, and ended on page 35.

As a result, I don't know what relativistic flimflam is. I will say to you as I said to Samson, I hope how you feel makes you feel good, because it has no other value. It did not stop Guede. It isn't stopping the crimes going on right now all around you. Even though the vast majority of the world feels the way you do, it did not and does not make one iota of difference.

How do you know if you're being moral or being vain? Oh, you're not like Guede, that evil man, you're good, and you're worthy. For whose benefit are you speaking? The mirror? Wait till you're starving. Wait until you're one of 7 in the lifeboat that sinks under the weight of six. When it's you or the other fellow for that last drop of water in the desert. Come back and tell me your choices then.

And, furthermore, I find it pretty d*mn hard to find a way to insult the fiber of civilization. Wait, I see, your excluding the bad acts attributable to evil men, like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao Zedong. They're bad, not welcome by 'civilization'. Only the good guys, like England under Winston Churchill, who firebombed the civilian population of Dresden, or the US, which dropped atomic bombs on two Japanese cities and firebombed Tokyo.

But that was then, and it was world war. How about our support for Sadam Hussien while he gassed his own people, is this what your referring to by 'the fiber of civilization' ? Or, our support for the Taliban until they turned on us? Were they better people back then? No. We just did not care. Maybe we were too busy being 'civilized'. Or is it that the Taliban only became evil after 9/11?

Was Hitler evil? I don't think so. I think Hitler was a man with a mental disorder. What I find evil is that a nation as sophisticated and able as Germany could endorse a man with a mental disorder like Hitler's to run their country. How did that happen? If Hitler had ended up unknown, barely able to afford a rented room, selling his art work on the street and proffering his bile to any listeners, he would just be pathetic, not evil. It's not just Hitler's choice that he ended up running Germany, it was also 'civilizations'.

It's a full moon tonight. If it makes you feel better, go outside and howl out your anger towards Guede, and Stalin, and whoever else is on your 'bad' list. Just don't expect the world to be a better place when you're done.

 

[Samson]

I don't think the thread should divert too far from the case, and I do respect your views. I realized I was not going to make it as a philosopher when in college, asked to read from a book by Sartre, I began on p 50, read for 3 hours, and ended on page 35.

As a result, I don't know what relativistic flimflam is. I will say to you as I said to Samson, I hope how you feel makes you feel good, because it has no other value. It did not stop Guede. It isn't stopping the crimes going on right now all around you. Even though the vast majority of the world feels the way you do, it did not and does not make one iota of difference.

How do you know if you're being moral or being vain? Oh, you're not like Guede, that evil man, you're good, and you're worthy. For whose benefit are you speaking? The mirror? Wait till you're starving. Wait until you're one of 7 in the lifeboat that sinks under the weight of six. When it's you or the other fellow for that last drop of water in the desert. Come back and tell me your choices then.

And, furthermore, I find it pretty d*mn hard to find a way to insult the fiber of civilization. Wait, I see, your excluding the bad acts attributable to evil men, like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao Zedong. They're bad, not welcome by 'civilization'. Only the good guys, like England under Winston Churchill, who firebombed the civilian population of Dresden, or the US, which dropped atomic bombs on two Japanese cities and firebombed Tokyo.

But that was then, and it was world war. How about our support for Sadam Hussien while he gassed his own people, is this what your referring to by 'the fiber of civilization' ? Or, our support for the Taliban until they turned on us? Were they better people back then? No. We just did not care. Maybe we were too busy being 'civilized'. Or is it that the Taliban only became evil after 9/11?

Was Hitler evil? I don't think so. I think Hitler was a man with a mental disorder. What I find evil is that a nation as sophisticated and able as Germany could endorse a man with a mental disorder like Hitler's to run their country. How did that happen? If Hitler had ended up unknown, barely able to afford a rented room, selling his art work on the street and proffering his bile to any listeners, he would just be pathetic, not evil. It's not just Hitler's choice that he ended up running Germany, it was also 'civilizations'.

It's a full moon tonight. If it makes you feel better, go outside and howl out your anger towards Guede, and Stalin, and whoever else is on your 'bad' list. Just don't expect the world to be a better place when you're done.

Guede is in a most unusual situation, he knows exactly what is happening to the lives of two innocent people and their families. He may be paralysed by fear of an intricate system, so your points are relevant. He may have decided to remain silent for personal safety. I hope he is being misrepresented when he says he wishes to teach. If he is silent about being the sole killer, but vocal about wishing to teach, he is definitively evil. I see it as relevant to discuss matters of sins of omission, of commission, and acts of evil amongst the myriads of participants involved in this tragedy.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

I do not use "also" ?
Never known that. I really have nothing against "also". I can change word sometimes, I hope.

Are you talking about the May 20. 2011 hearing of Vecchiotti and Conti? Or somethign else?

I don't have it yet but I might have it soon, over the next weeks.

No, actually it is 3 things:
The October 8, 2008 preliminary hearing transcript addressing the negative controls being deposited twice in two days (your post #5372)

The index of the case file documents showing "the chancellery of the Preliminary Judge to have the negative controls that were deposited or to see what documents are actually there."

Also the transcript or some other documentation showing negative controls were deposited also on October 4th (your post#5522)