Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

[JaysonR]

Not really, the gist was clear. Nice post, though a fair bit* over my Greek proficiency. It's long ago, I didn't enjoy the classes, and, as these things go, I've forgotten most of it.
Brought back memories though...

What does surprise me is exactly how sloppy Paul the Grammar is of him.






*an enormous bit

Thanks.

Also, to be fair, "Paul's" grammar isn't outright bad, like the gospels (except Luke), it's just more..."commoner".
I suppose the difference between high school C average and Harvard Law degree with a 4.0.

 

[Brainache]

Thanks.

Also, to be fair, "Paul's" grammar isn't outright bad, like the gospels (except Luke), it's just more..."commoner".
I suppose the difference between high school C average and Harvard Law degree with a 4.0.

I'm curious about that. Would you say that was because of the difference in education between Jerusalem (or wherever Paul studied) and the Schools of say, Athens or Alexandria?

Or does it indicate Paul was "home-schooled" or something?

 

[TimCallahan]

Your conclusion is not logical at all. You are really no different to Tim Callahan you have merely assumed you know when the Pauline letters were composed.

You simply cannot show that the Pauline writers could not have copied Justin Martyr because you have no way to show that any Pauline letter was composed before the time of Justin.

This is the same insulting broken record. JaysonR gave you extensive evidence. As to his assuming Justin copied Romans, you have nothing but your own assumption that Romans copied Justin. You have offered no evidence, whatsoever to support your position.

Plus, Justin Martyr did not acknowledge Paul as the one who responsible for the preaching of the Gospel to the Gentile world.

Justin specifically stated that it was TWELVE ILLITERATES from Jerusalem who preached the Gospel to the whole world--every race of men.

Justin's First Apology

How in the world could Justin have documented Epistles from Paul to the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Thessalonians, Philippians and Colossians and still declare that it was TWELVE ILLITERATES who preached the Gospel to every race of men?

It should have been well established for at least 100 years earlier in the Churches that is was Paul who was commissioned to preach the Gospel outside Judea--to the Non Jews in the Roman Empire as stated in Galatians.

Galatians 2

Justin copied and used the Gospel of the TWELVE ILLITERATE apostles--not the Pauline letters.
Justin Martyr knew nothing at all of the supposed early evangelist Paul who documented that he preached the Gospel to the Roman Empire.

While you probably won't listen to me this time any more than you have in the past, I once again reiterate that Justin, writing after the Synoptic Gospels were likely to have been written, would have stated that the gospel was spread in accordance with the developing doctrine that those spreading to knew Jesus. He would not have mentioned Paul or his letters, simply because they did not constitute the Christian message, but were letters sent to various churches on how to manage their business.

When Justin says he copied and used the gospel of the 12 illiterate apostles (hilited area of your post), this is clearly a statement of dogma and nothing more. If the 12 were truly illiterate, he couldn't have copied what they were incapable of writing. Therefore, to accept such a tradition, one has to provide the 12 with secretaries and scribes, scribbling down their message as they spoke. So, what we see here is the full-blown myth: Not only do the illiterate fishermen from Galilee become world travelers, they also now have staff.

 

[Brainache]

This is the same insulting broken record. JaysonR gave you extensive evidence. As to his assuming Justin copied Romans, you have nothing but your own assumption that Romans copied Justin. You have offered no evidence, whatsoever to support your position.



While you probably won't listen to me this time any more than you have in the past, I once again reiterate that Justin, writing after the Synoptic Gospels were likely to have been written, would have stated that the gospel was spread in accordance with the developing doctrine that those spreading to knew Jesus. He would not have mentioned Paul or his letters, simply because they did not constitute the Christian message, but were letters sent to various churches on how to manage their business.

When Justin says he copied and used the gospel of the 12 illiterate apostles (hilited area of your post), this is clearly a statement of dogma and nothing more. If the 12 were truly illiterate, he couldn't have copied what they were incapable of writing. Therefore, to accept such a tradition, one has to provide the 12 with secretaries and scribes, scribbling down their message as they spoke. So, what we see here is the full-blown myth: Not only do the illiterate fishermen from Galilee become world travelers, they also now have staff.

It is amazing how so much of the MJ idea relies on Christian dogma. Some of these people seem surprised that the Academic HJ doesn't walk on water or raise the dead.

 

[TimCallahan]

. . . (major snip) . . .
How many times must I point out to you that it is illogical to assume that any mention of Christians must refer to a cult who worshiped Jesus or believed the story of Jesus?

Even in the 1st century, since the time of Claudius, c 41-54 CE, magicians and their followers were called Christians. . . . (major snip) . . .

Concerning the hilited area: Please give evidence of this assertion of yours.

 

[jhunter1163]

That's not a bad point. However the poster could know, even on the basis of a lesser erudition in this field, that Paul's Greek grammar was sloppy, to a significant degree at all events.

Or one could look at JaysonR's post, where the grammar is broken down in exhaustive detail.

 

[dejudge]

The meaning of the term has been explained to you, and it doesn't apply to what you are claiming it does. Therefore it stands to reason that you don't understand the term, or that you are unwilling to admit that you have been corrected.

This inability to admit one's wrong seems well established by your claim to be 100% on the side of the MJ hypothesis.

You don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Craig B]

You don't know what you are talking about.

Could you expand on that, dejudge? I'd be interested in a fuller explanation of what you mean.

 

[dejudge]

This is the same insulting broken record. JaysonR gave you extensive evidence. As to his assuming Justin copied Romans, you have nothing but your own assumption that Romans copied Justin. You have offered no evidence, whatsoever to support your position.

JaysonR gave no extensive evidence that Justin copied Romans. He merely assumed that the Epistle to Romans was composed early.

I have shown that Justin Martyr did not acknowledge Paul and the Pauline Corpus at all.

1. Justin Martyr attributed the spread of the Gospel to every race of men of the world to the TWELVE ILLITERATES from Jerusalem.

2. Justin Martyr claimed it was the Memoirs of the Apostles and the books of the prophets that were read in the Churches.

3. A passage that appears to be from the Pauline Epistles was attributed to the Memoirs of the Apostles by Justin.

While you probably won't listen to me this time any more than you have in the past, I once again reiterate that Justin, writing after the Synoptic Gospels were likely to have been written, would have stated that the gospel was spread in accordance with the developing doctrine that those spreading to knew Jesus. He would not have mentioned Paul or his letters, simply because they did not constitute the Christian message, but were letters sent to various churches on how to manage their business.

Please, you don't know what you are talking about. You have completely forgotten that Justin mentioned a character that supposedly had REVELATIONS from Jesus.

You forgot that Justin Martyr mentioned John by name as one who wrote of his Revelation.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho

And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem...

Justin acknowledged the Revelation of John but never the Revelations of Paul. The omission of the Pauline Revelations by Justin s extremely significant when it is claimed by Paul that he was commissioned to preach by Revelation to the uncircumcision.

When Justin says he copied and used the gospel of the 12 illiterate apostles (hilited area of your post), this is clearly a statement of dogma and nothing more. If the 12 were truly illiterate, he couldn't have copied what they were incapable of writing. Therefore, to accept such a tradition, one has to provide the 12 with secretaries and scribes, scribbling down their message as they spoke. So, what we see here is the full-blown myth: Not only do the illiterate fishermen from Galilee become world travelers, they also now have staff.

Again, you do not understand that the story of Jesus and the disciples is not history. Justin is writing what he believed.

You have no idea or have not read what Justin wrote about the 12 Illiterates from Jerusalem.

AFTER the resurrection Jesus TAUGHT the illiterate apostles to READ the prophecies and they were given the Power from God to preach the Gospel to every race of men.

Justin's Apology

For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God..

Justin's First Apology l

.... when He had risen from the dead and appeared to them, and had taught them to read the prophecies in which all these things were foretold as coming to pass, and when they had seen Him ascending into heaven, and had believed, and had received power sent thence by Him upon them, and went to every race of men, they taught these things, and were called apostles.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho

"Moreover, the prescription that twelve bells be attached to the [robe] of the high priest, which hung down to the feet, was a symbol of the twelve apostles, who depend on the power of Christ, the eternal Priest; and through their voice it is that all the earth has been filled with the glory and grace of God and of His Christ.

It is clear that Paul and the Pauline Epistles were completely unknown by Justin Martyr. It was the 12 illiterates with no ability of speaking who preached the Gospel to every race of men by the Power of God .

PAUL and the Pauline Epistles played zero role in the theology and development of the Jesus cult and Churches up to the time of Justin Martyr c 150 CE.

 

[JaysonR]

JaysonR gave no extensive evidence that Justin copied Romans. He merely assumed that the Epistle to Romans was composed early.

No. Romans could have been written a day before Justin wrote DT, as far as the examination I did informs us.

I'm not providing a date.
The results only indicate which text copied which text.
Their relative order is evidenced, but not dates or authenticity.

 

[TimCallahan]

JaysonR gave no extensive evidence that Justin copied Romans. He merely assumed that the Epistle to Romans was composed early.

Actually, he did, and you have ignored everything he's said. Meanwhile, you have given no evidence that Romans copied Justin.

I have shown that Justin Martyr did not acknowledge Paul and the Pauline Corpus at all.

No, you really haven't.

1. Justin Martyr attributed the spread of the Gospel to every race of men of the world to the TWELVE ILLITERATES from Jerusalem.

2. Justin Martyr claimed it was the Memoirs of the Apostles and the books of the prophets that were read in the Churches.

3. A passage that appears to be from the Pauline Epistles was attributed to the Memoirs of the Apostles by Justin.

Which means that Justin did not originate material he wrote that is the same as that in Romans. Also, are you arguing that Justin had a perfect understanding of what was an as yet unofficial canon?

Please, you don't know what you are talking about. You have completely forgotten that Justin mentioned a character that supposedly had REVELATIONS from Jesus.

Concerning the hilited area: Please, you have no concept of civility. You can as easily say, "I disagree with you because . . ." or even, "You are wrong, because . . ." You actually have to out of your way to be as rude and abrasive as you are in your posts. I suspect that you're able to do this because of anonymity. However, perhaps I'm wrong, and you are as rude to people's faces as you are here. I'm not sure which is worse.

You forgot that Justin Martyr mentioned John by name as one who wrote of his Revelation.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho

Justin acknowledged the Revelation of John but never the Revelations of Paul. The omission of the Pauline Revelations by Justin s extremely significant when it is claimed by Paul that he was commissioned to preach by Revelation to the uncircumcision.

Of course, the Revelation of John would have been that of John of Patmos. While the gospels and some of the Pauline epistles, particularly 1 Corinthians, have apocalyptic passages, none have revelatory material that match John's apocalypse. The only Pauline revelation I know of are Paul's claim of revelation in Galatians. So, there was no Pauline revelation for him to have known or not known.

Again, you do not understand that the story of Jesus and the disciples is not history. Justin is writing what he believed.

When have I ever argued that the gospel narratives were historical? If you will look over my posts on this thread and others, you will see that I have always argued that they were based four basic sources: the Jewish scriptures, Jewish apocalypticism and the politics of the day see through an apocalyptic lens, pagan myth, and Greek literature. Once again, while complaining bitterly that other people don't properly read what you have written, you have obviously ignored what I've written.

You have no idea or have not read what Justin wrote about the 12 Illiterates from Jerusalem.

AFTER the resurrection Jesus TAUGHT the illiterate apostles to READ the prophecies and they were given the Power from God to preach the Gospel to every race of men.

You seem to think this is important. It isn't.

. . . (snip) . . .

It is clear that Paul and the Pauline Epistles were completely unknown by Justin Martyr. It was the 12 illiterates with no ability of speaking who preached the Gospel to every race of men by the Power of God .

Why don't we give this particular argument a rest and agree to disagree. JaysonR and I have presented many arguments for the position that Justin Martyr did now of what are generally considered the genuinely Pauline epistles. It's a waste of time for both you and me to keep arguing this.

PAUL and the Pauline Epistles played zero role in the theology and development of the Jesus cult and Churches up to the time of Justin Martyr c 150 CE.

As support for this assertion, give me a point of theology expressed what are commonly considered genuinely Pauline epistles - such as Galatians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, and Romans - that you feel runs counter to what Justin believed.

ETA: The definitely deutero-Pauline epistles are Colossians, Ephesians, II Thessalonians, I & II Timothy and Titus.

 

[jhunter1163]

Dejudge, if you cannot maintain civility voluntarily, I will enforce it. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jhunter1163

 

[Belz...]

You don't know what you are talking about.

I know full well what I'm talking about: you didn't know the meaning of the term, and are unwilling to admit your failing.

No shame in making mistakes, dejudge. But there is shame in not admitting them.

 

[dejudge]

Actually, he did, and you have ignored everything he's said. Meanwhile, you have given no evidence that Romans copied Justin.

JaysonR has contradicted you and claimed he did not give any date.

I'm not providing a date

 

[JaysonR]

JaysonR has contradicted you and claimed he did not give any date.

Do you accept the paleographic results yet?

 

[dejudge]

Or one could look at JaysonR's post, where the grammar is broken down in exhaustive detail.

JaysonR did an analysis of grammar not an analysis of the date of writing. The contrast in grammar is not evidence that Justin copied the Epistle of Romans.

He has also admitted that he did not provide any date.

 

[dejudge]

I have shown that Justin Martyr did not acknowledge Paul and the Pauline Corpus at all.

No, you really haven't.

Your statement is hopelessly wrong. I have always shown that Justin did not acknowledge Paul and the Pauline Corpus..

 

[JaysonR]

JaysonR did an analysis of grammar not an analysis of the date of writing. The contrast in grammar is not evidence that Justin copied the Epistle of Romans.

Yes, it is.

He has also admitted that he did not provide any date.

I never said that I would.
I said that I would use paleography to examine your claim that Romans copied DT.

The results do not support your position on which text copied which text.

 

[TimCallahan]

JaysonR did an analysis of grammar not an analysis of the date of writing. The contrast in grammar is not evidence that Justin copied the Epistle of Romans.

He has also admitted that he did not provide any date.

And what have you provided to back your assertions? Zip. Nada. Nothing.

I asked you to provide evidence of your assertion that, from the time of Claudius on, magicians and the like were referred to as "Christians." So far, I have not received a response. Am I likely to?

 

[dejudge]

1. Justin Martyr attributed the spread of the Gospel to every race of men of the world to the TWELVE ILLITERATES from Jerusalem.

2. Justin Martyr claimed it was the Memoirs of the Apostles and the books of the prophets that were read in the Churches.

3. A passage that appears to be from the Pauline Epistles was attributed to the Memoirs of the Apostles by Justin.

Which means that Justin did not originate material he wrote that is the same as that in Romans. Also, are you arguing that Justin had a perfect understanding of what was an as yet unofficial canon?

Again, you have merely assumed that there are authentic Pauline Epistles.

Justin did not mention Paul, the Pauline Corpus or the Revelations of Paul ONLY the Revelation of John and he identified John the apostle of Jesus, not John of Patmos, as the author of Revelation.

It must also be noted and it is extremely significant that Justin Martyr called the Gospel "the Memoirs of the Apostles" which means the Memoirs were written by those who personally knew Jesus and were with him.

Neither Paul nor Luke could not write a Memoir of Jesus.

Paul saw and heard from Jesus only AFTER he was raised from the dead.

Paul saw and heard from the resurrected Jesus when he could not have done so.

The Pauline Corpus is not credible and had perhaps over seven authors posing as Paul.