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JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends II

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What you fail to recognize is that Oswald being a lone gunman is a theory unto itself. Since there has never been and more than likely never will be a trial, this entire assassination is nothing but a theory.
You need to look up what "theory" and "hypothesis" mean.


You cannot claim anything as a baseline since only Commissions and independent researchers have carried the heavy loads. There are two distinct camps... "lone gunman" and "there was help". Burden of proof is always upon the person making the claim. That rule is plain and simple no matter how many times you attempt to redefine it. A prevailing hypothesis is present in science not in murder cases especially ones that have never seen the light of a courthouse. So far, the Commissions have been political and unless you consider "political science" a science, the burden of proof still is and will always be on the individual who makes a claim.
Are you now asserting that you have no claim to make? Therefore you have no burden of proof nor any need to provide any evidence for the claim you are not making?

Fine. Then you have nothing and the null stands.

I have shown that I have "examined" the case contrary to your rhetoric. I make a statement and back it up; others may ask questions and if I feel that it moves it forward I will respond, if the question/comment is interpreted to grind down my comments without support, I will normally ignore it.
Facts are not affected in any way by your feelings.

What is erratic in your behavior and responses is that you do not challenge your followers/sheeple or hold them up to the "standards" you do to those who disagree with you.
Fail. Since JayUtah is well known both on and outside the intertubes for rigour in the application of facts, science and logic, this does not fly at all, particularly when wheeled out by a poster hiding behind anonymous posts.

An example: BStrong makes a claim that LHO was an exceptional clearance by the FBI or something to that ilk. I challenged that (burden of proof is on BStrong since he made the claim) yet your position was that BStrong had 15 years of law enforcement background and that meant that I had to go out and prove him wrong. That meant I needed to prove a negative... Heck, the FBI NEVER even had jurisdiction in this case... It is silly draconian comments like that which diminishes your position at all levels. You do not possess the ability (or at least shown it) to examine the points from any other perspective besides attempting to put down another, there are no eyes wide open. At least Hank and BStrong put forth arguments and have the backbone to defend them, you have not provided any substance other than retreading the word "parsimony" and few other nuggets that will appear in the next day or two.

And all you have is ad hominem. FWIW, both bstrong and Hank get my vote of confidence long before I would give your pretence of making no claim at all the time of day.
 
Ladmo a theory is a proved idea, or set of ideas and LHO being the lone gunman has been proved over and over again by the hard evidence.
There are many starting points as to where you are wrong.

Theory is a proved idea? No, it is not proven. It is a set of ideas but it is not proved/proven. A theorem can be proven.

As for LHO "being the lone gunman has been proved over and over again by the hard evidence." Well, that is your contention yet I have not read your basis for this position.
 
You are completely wrong. I have challenged comments and they have not been answered. When somebody says and I am paraphrasing but will use the key word... "LHO carried a large bag into the TSBD". I challenge the statement by asking who saw LHO carry the large bag? Actually quite simple. Then the entire element gets dragged across the forum like broom in a barn. I have not read an answer to my question. This is not shifting the burden of proof, it is merely asking someone to have the termerity to stand behind their statement. I will give you the answer: Nobody saw LHO carry a large bag into the TSBD. Only two individuals in the world ever witnessed LHO carrying a bag that day... Wes Frazier and his sister. Both of them gave a dimension that did not exceed 27". Nobody but the WC provided the word "large" or a word to that effect; I think "bulky" could also have been used. This is why the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the person making the claim.

As for the "rifle bag" (a bag that was 36" long) the chain of possession was totally compromised no matter how many people saw it laying on the floor. First, there was no photo taken at the crime scene and as you could read through the testimony... there are as many versions of the bag as there are Detectives who were at the scene. Second, when the bag was returned with a palm print that was not initially "discovered" by the Dallas Police, the bag was permanently altered due to the silver nitrate process. This, by definition, was a destructive test and completely altered the bag. Since nobody could identify the bag as being the original bag, another bag was made up and shown to Wes and his sister. In short, Wes Frazier stood by his original testimony and said the bag that LHO carried was no greater than 27". So there was never a linkage between this bag and the rifle. Yet, others wanted me to comment on how the bag got there... and that is not for me to say as I do not claim anything in regards to that bag.
In summary, your claim is this:

1. there were no witnesses to the paper bag.
2. But two witnesses saw the bag.
3. These two witnesses who you claim do not sxist were both able to measure the bag they didn't see accurately by eye.
4. The bag which nobody saw was altered by forensic tests so as to be the bag that nobody saw.
5. But you are making no claim.
 
ladmo I would have to show you the stacks of books I have read over the years about this case, I do not rely on the internet alone for knowledge, and all the CT ones share one common thread the more you look at them with cold reason the less and less believable they are.
 
You need to look up what "theory" and "hypothesis" mean.
I have and I am using it correctly. Please point out where I am in err.



Are you now asserting that you have no claim to make? Therefore you have no burden of proof nor any need to provide any evidence for the claim you are not making?
I never asserted that. I have stated facts and have backed them up, it will not be up to me to provide burden of proof for something I did not say and/or make a claim.

Fine. Then you have nothing and the null stands.
You are anticipating my answer prior to my answering your question...

Facts are not affected in any way by your feelings.
I completely agree with your statement.

Fail. Since JayUtah is well known both on and outside the intertubes for rigour in the application of facts, science and logic, this does not fly at all, particularly when wheeled out by a poster hiding behind anonymous posts.
Whatever reputation you may be referring to, it does not alter my comment. Who is hiding behind anonymous posts? You do not make sense...



And all you have is ad hominem. FWIW, both bstrong and Hank get my vote of confidence long before I would give your pretence of making no claim at all the time of day.
I am glad you throw your confidence behind those two as I am certainly not seeking your approval. You may wish to read my post(s) prior to making that last statement. Hank and BStrong vehemently disagree with me, why would these two, seemingly smart individuals, disagree with me if I do not make a claim?
 
In summary, your claim is this:

1. there were no witnesses to the paper bag.
there were no witnesses to a "large" paper bag.
2. But two witnesses saw the bag.
yes, Wes and his sister
3. These two witnesses who you claim do not sxist were both able to measure the bag they didn't see accurately by eye.
You are getting too cute. The witnesses that saw the bag said the bag was no longer than 27".
4. The bag which nobody saw was altered by forensic tests so as to be the bag that nobody saw.
Again, you are being glib.
5. But you are making no claim.
My claim is perfectly clear. Wes and his sister witnessed a bag that was no more than 27" long.
 
ladmo I would have to show you the stacks of books I have read over the years about this case, I do not rely on the internet alone for knowledge, and all the CT ones share one common thread the more you look at them with cold reason the less and less believable they are.
I am glad that you have read numerous (my assumption) books. Your last statement is not founded and it is totally incorrect if you care to throw me in the lot of "CT".
 
I have and I am using it correctly. Please point out where I am in err.
You clearly have no idea what those terms mean. I have no need to point it out. Everyone else in this thread can see it.

I never asserted that. I have stated facts and have backed them up, it will not be up to me to provide burden of proof for something I did not say and/or make a claim.
Again you retreat into "no-claimism". If you have no claim then you surely accept the null hypothesis, right?

You are anticipating my answer prior to my answering your question...
What question would that be, Ted?

I completely agree with your statement.
No, you don't.

Else you would cease posting that "I feel this" and "I feel that"

Whatever reputation you may be referring to, it does not alter my comment. Who is hiding behind anonymous posts? You do not make sense...
Well, you are. You are an anonymous poster, making anonymous claims based on no evidence. You further claim to be making no claims at all, which is a claim in itself.

I am glad you throw your confidence behind those two as I am certainly not seeking your approval.
Approval not sought, and risible, in any event.

You may wish to read my post(s) prior to making that last statement.
I have, and have formulated an opinion. You wouldn't like it much.

Hank and BStrong vehemently disagree with me, why would these two, seemingly smart individuals, disagree with me if I do not make a claim?
Because you utilise the "no-claimer" position to avoid responsibility for the claims you purport not to make at all. Even while you make claims.
 
In summary, your claim is this:

there were no witnesses to a "large" paper bag.
yes, Wes and his sister
You are getting too cute. The witnesses that saw the bag said the bag was no longer than 27".
Again, you are being glib.
My claim is perfectly clear. Wes and his sister witnessed a bag that was no more than 27" long.

Learn to quote.

You have claimed there were no witnesses and that there were witnesses. Pick one.
ETA: Do one of two things. Provide evidence that eye witnesses can accurately measure by eye, or accept that eye witnesses are inherently flawed.
 
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You are completely wrong. I have challenged comments and they have not been answered. When somebody says and I am paraphrasing but will use the key word... "LHO carried a large bag into the TSBD". I challenge the statement by asking who saw LHO carry the large bag? Actually quite simple. Then the entire element gets dragged across the forum like broom in a barn. I have not read an answer to my question. This is not shifting the burden of proof, it is merely asking someone to have the termerity to stand behind their statement. I will give you the answer: Nobody saw LHO carry a large bag into the TSBD. Only two individuals in the world ever witnessed LHO carrying a bag that day... Wes Frazier and his sister. Both of them gave a dimension that did not exceed 27". Nobody but the WC provided the word "large" or a word to that effect; I think "bulky" could also have been used. This is why the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the person making the claim.

As for the "rifle bag" (a bag that was 36" long) the chain of possession was totally compromised no matter how many people saw it laying on the floor. First, there was no photo taken at the crime scene and as you could read through the testimony... there are as many versions of the bag as there are Detectives who were at the scene. Second, when the bag was returned with a palm print that was not initially "discovered" by the Dallas Police, the bag was permanently altered due to the silver nitrate process. This, by definition, was a destructive test and completely altered the bag. Since nobody could identify the bag as being the original bag, another bag was made up and shown to Wes and his sister. In short, Wes Frazier stood by his original testimony and said the bag that LHO carried was no greater than 27". So there was never a linkage between this bag and the rifle. Yet, others wanted me to comment on how the bag got there... and that is not for me to say as I do not claim anything in regards to that bag.

So who was seen carrying the large bag into the TSBD?

What happened to the smaller bag that Oswald carried in?

What happened to those pesky curtain rods?

ladmo, stop scurrrying away from answering the questions.
 
...if the question/comment is interpreted to grind down my comments without support, I will normally ignore it.

You've ignored every single question I've asked, save one, going back to the days when you were shilling Garrison's case. You "interpret" questions as ones you don't have to answer, and thus let yourself off the hook.

What is erratic in your behavior and responses is that you do not challenge your followers/sheeple...

"Followers?" Did I appoint myself someone's leader? Did they elect me? And name-calling -- "sheeple," from someone who whines incessantly about allegedly being maligned and not taken seriously.

Since you freely state you have no obligation to state and defend a point, and since you unilaterally excuse yourself from any part of the debate you don't like, and since you can't make one single post without calling me or others names, can you please give me a good reason why your posts deserve further attention?
 
You've ignored every single question I've asked, save one, going back to the days when you were shilling Garrison's case. You "interpret" questions as ones you don't have to answer, and thus let yourself off the hook.
That's the MO.



"Followers?" Did I appoint myself someone's leader? Did they elect me? And name-calling -- "sheeple," from someone who whines incessantly about allegedly being maligned and not taken seriously.

Since you freely state you have no obligation to state and defend a point, and since you unilaterally excuse yourself from any part of the debate you don't like, and since you can't make one single post without calling me or others names, can you please give me a good reason why your posts deserve further attention?
In LadmoWorld, simply agreeing is sufficient to appoint you as the default dictator. One may not have an opinion which concurs with yours, or anyones, else one must be a gubbmint shill.

As long as one ignores the fact that ladmo insists that one must agree with him to be considered credible.
 
In fact, I would be interested to know Ladmo's opinion of the claim of a deathbed affidavit of a man very much alive made by his compatriot in that far strange country that CTs inhabit.
 
I have a copy of Reclaiming History from the library, but it did not come with the CD of footnotes. Point is, Bugliosi makes this claim for which I don't know the citations:



LHO normally read the newspaper in the domino when he got to the TSBD, but the day of the assassination, for the first time, he did not (p. 956, number 9 in summary of guilt). Of course, if Oswald brought a rifle to work, he would have tried to stash it where it would be out of sight until he needed it. He would need to hide it right away.



If Bugliosi is not lying to me (and how could he lie to someone who grew up in the same town?) this is further evidence that LHO brought the gun to work. It also helps explain why no one remembers him bringing in the bag. Anyone have citations for this?
 
I have a copy of Reclaiming History from the library, but it did not come with the CD of footnotes. Point is, Bugliosi makes this claim for which I don't know the citations:



LHO normally read the newspaper in the domino when he got to the TSBD, but the day of the assassination, for the first time, he did not (p. 956, number 9 in summary of guilt). Of course, if Oswald brought a rifle to work, he would have tried to stash it where it would be out of sight until he needed it. He would need to hide it right away.



If Bugliosi is not lying to me (and how could he lie to someone who grew up in the same town?) this is further evidence that LHO brought the gun to work. It also helps explain why no one remembers him bringing in the bag. Anyone have citations for this?

6 H 352, WCT Charles Douglas Givens

Off topic, but you didn't know Bob Dylan, did you?
 
What you fail to recognize is that Oswald being a lone gunman is a theory unto itself.

Hogwash, it was the principal thesis of my post that you quoted in this response.

There are two distinct camps... "lone gunman" and "there was help".

No, the camps are not in any way equivalent in terms of rigor.

There is the "Oswald was a lone gunman" camp, and the "Everything else under the sun" camp. The latter can't be considered a true camp since its only unifying concept is "The Warren Commission got it wrong." It's not a useful group when they only thing they can agree on is what they disagree on. And five decades later, they aren't any more coherent than when they started.

Burden of proof is always upon the person making the claim. That rule is plain and simple no matter how many times you attempt to redefine it.

No, correcting your simplistic understanding of how investigation actually works is not "redefining" anything.

The proposition that Oswald acted alone to kill Kennedy is indeed an affirmative statement. You want to style conspiracy theory debate as forever doing nothing more than disputing that affirmative claim, and thereby never, ever having any burden of proof whatsoever. But that's simplistic. In disputing the lone-gunman theory, affirmative rebuttals and counterclaims are made or insinuated (e.g., a bullet struck the windshield from the front, the long bag was planted, LEA purposely derailed the investigation, Clay Shaw worked for the CIA and was recruited to help). And those affirmative claims have their own burden of proof.

Disingenuously, most conspiracy theorists intentionally shy away from making any large-scale affirmative accusations. They know they cannot prove any of them, so they try to shape the debate into simply exonerating Oswald -- a rebuttal case only.

A prevailing hypothesis is present in science not in murder cases especially ones that have never seen the light of a courthouse.

There you go again, trying to shoehorn it back into a courthouse. Why? Because still the only thing you have is the symbolic exoneration of Oswald according to your own invented standard of legal proof. Wrong standard of proof, and only a hypothetical satisfaction of it. This is why conspiracy theories get little respect.

The concept of a prevailing theory applies to all inductive questions. It performs many of the functions of the null hypothesis, lacking only its axiomatic or self-evident formulation. Decades into a thorough study of the question, when the prevailing theory remains largely unimpeached, challenges to it indeed bear a burden of proof.

So far, the Commissions have been political...

Ad hominem.

The various investigative bodies are either right or wrong according to the facts. You want to infer wrongness-in-fact from your beliefs about possible reasons why they might be wrong. Instead, just simply show that a better, clearer, and more evident conclusion exists based on the same facts, and any additional ones.

Oh wait, you can't do that. Nor do you even concede that this is something you should do.

I have shown that I have "examined" the case contrary to your rhetoric. I make a statement and back it up...

No. You explicitly do not. Any time there is the slightest hint of you being pinned down on any of the wild assertions you've made (e.g., that Oswald was a CIA contractor), you immediately retreat behind the "I'm not making any assertions" hidey-hole. You ignore questions you find inconvenient. Under no stretch of the imagination can you be said here to have made statements that you subsequently back up.

What is erratic in your behavior and responses is that you do not challenge your followers/sheeple or hold them up to the "standards" you do to those who disagree with you.

Except, of course, where I take Robo Timbo to task for misunderstanding the role of the null hypothesis in a historical or happenstance investigation, and of showing him how the burden of proof is not universally applicable to one side only, including all subordinate claims and affirmative rebuttals.

Your posts have become so bankrupt that you can't even get the well-poisoning parts right.

An example: BStrong makes a claim that LHO was an exceptional clearance by the FBI or something to that ilk. I challenged that (burden of proof is on BStrong since he made the claim)...

It was your claim that the FBI did not have the authority to clear the case under those rules. That's your claim and your burden of proof. Your argument appeared to be that because the FBI originally did not have jurisdiction, they could not have cleared the case. But you omit the information provided by HSeizant showing that at the time the clearance occurred, they did have the authority to do it.

...yet your position was that BStrong had 15 years of law enforcement background and that meant that I had to go out and prove him wrong.

I stated absolutely no such position.

I tried to interrogate you on the basis for your claim that the FBI did not have the jurisdiction to clear the case. I asked you twice before I could get your attention. Your ultimate answer was that you simply didn't need any evidence. This to me suggests that you didn't fully understand or investigate the facts. As HSeizant hypothesized, you seem to argue as if all you've ever seen are the cherry-picked facts presented by conspiracy authors. Once you get quizzed beyond that, the answers dry up and you're back to one of the various excuses you use for not having to answer questions.

My position relied almost exclusively on your free admission that you were ignorant of the legal principles and practice of exceptional clearance. Based on that admission, I gave appropriate weight to your personal opinion that the FBI improperly cleared the case against Oswald. You asserted they did not have the authority, based on nothing more than your supported personal opinion of how that practice should have worked. That's an affirmative claim, given on a shaky basis which I exposed. It had absolutely nothing to do with anyone else's expertise.

...you have not provided any substance other than retreading the word "parsimony" and few other nuggets that will appear in the next day or two.

Or so you desperately want everyone to believe. You simply ignore everything directly pertinent that I say, such on the subjects of firearms testing and the CIA's program to get information from civilians. Give any excuse you want for ignoring those topics; everyone has seen me fruitlessly try to extract any answers from you on those points recently.

Please by all means keep trying to tell people that all I ever write is puffery and sophistry. I think it's hilarious for you to try to characterize to readers things they can read for themselves. I've been participating in this thread for two years along with most of the other regulars. Where have you been all that time?

Nice try at shifting the burden of proof once again, but I told you we're onto that.
 
I have stated facts and have backed them up...
Would you be so good as to point me to where you did so for this [bolding mine]:
First, I have read the testimony and in great detail but your "proof" is from the tired FBI. The FBI has a dog in the race which makes them do weird things like palm prints on bags.
Thanks in advance!
...it will not be up to me to provide burden of proof for something I did not say and/or make a claim.
See above.
 
Except, of course, where I take Robo Timbo to task for misunderstanding the role of the null hypothesis in a historical or happenstance investigation, and of showing him how the burden of proof is not universally applicable to one side only, including all subordinate claims and affirmative rebuttals.

Nope, wasn't me.
 
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