Is Atheism based on Logic or Faith?

[tsig]

So you believe that Muhammad who was considered to be a rather honest but otherwise ordinary guy before his 40th birthday, had a seizure which caused him to become (what many would consider and based on the examples which I have provided) a literary #, and mathematical # genius?
If believing that makes it easier to swallow, then sure. I actually think the theory that he may have had access to a time machine to be slightly more plausible. Consider this, he could have jumped to the future wrote everything down, preformed all of the necessary calculations, then zipped back to the past and disclosed the information the people over a prolonged period of time, also making sure to disassemble, destroy and any evidence that a time machine ever existed.

His wife died and he set out to spread some wild oats.

 

[tsig]

OK, the "Assassinations predicted in Moby Dick" link was funny the first time. I literally had to wipe down my monitor the first time someone posted that link. But re-posting it is almost the same as admitting that you've got nothing.

Could you share the joke?

 

[tsig]

I have not read the books which these authors have put forward on the subject, but I would image that if the Wikipedia website is functioning as it should there are a number of discussion taking place and edits which have been made that allow the work of these four authors to remain listed as sources. Although anyone is welcome to visit the Quran page, and to click on and read through the revision history to retrace how they managed to arrive where they are now.

Hamza Yusuf and Nouman Ali Khan are two of the scholars which I follow regarding the topic, you may consider them to be biased (since they are both Muslim), but in many of their talks not only do they simply make the claim (such and such is miraculous/of the finest literary quality) they actually explain and show why it is such, as can be seen in the following example.

If Homer was truly blind and he was able to come up with what is considered to be the "finest piece of literature" in the Greek language. I would also consider that to be a Miracle. Although I do not think anyone has claimed this to be the case, and if they have done, then the "finest" on what basis?

If I believed in a god it would be beneath his dignity to hide in linguistics tricks.

A god gets tied up to a sound

He gives the world

It's saddest sound.

It's saddest sound

apology to S&G.

 

[Aridas]

It is pretty obvious at this point that you have not even bothered to look at what has been provided.

Morelike, you've made a bunch of claims that have already been shown to be rather questionable, at very best, usually both highly subjective and reliant on highly biased sources, and in general, quite unimpressive. Is there some reason why I would treat claims like that as worth much of anything? Now, going past that, would you be kind enough to actually address why you think that the Quran is not shown to lack uniqueness by the contents of the links provided or ask for something more specific? You asked, regardless. Your attempt to handwave responses away doesn't help your position.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Mike, Why should I take the quran any more seriously than I do the myriad of other holy books, They all have the same vauge sometimes literal sometimes metaphor language.

What isn't metaphorical is Mohammad having a thing for young girls, So why would I trust someone like that?

Lastly, I'm still curious where you were going with the jews questions.

 

[Navigator]

You depart from reality with your first sentence.

How do you gain any info from beyond the construct of the physical universe?

I said that. Science cannot. that is exactly why it does not categorically state that god etc does not exist.

Science is saying no such thing. It deals with this universe.

You are confusing atheism with science. They are two separate things.

 

[Astreja]

So you believe that Muhammad who was considered to be a rather honest but otherwise ordinary guy before his 40th birthday, had a seizure which caused him to become (what many would consider and based on the examples which I have provided) a literary #, and mathematical # genius?

I don't think he actually had to be anything more than a religious zealot with the ability to rile up people and organize them into an army. As there are no known copies of the Qur'an written by Muhammad, and as the book was compiled and finalized after his death, the "literary and mathematical genius" could be a committee of sheikhs and mullahs deliberately arranging and editing the suras to make them appear divine.

 

[Navigator]

1: Lordy, you do carry-on, don't you?

2: Science doesn't have to falsify the claim 'gods do not exist'. Anyone is eligible to falsify that statement. You for example. What have you got?

3: Have you read anything about the philosophy of science?

1: I don't know. Maybe we all do.

2: Science cannot. You said it was a statement of science. It is rather a statement of atheism. I cannot falsify such an ambiguous claim. "gods do not exist" ...what does it even mean?

3: No. why do you ask? Are you saying perhaps that some philosophy of science makes such statements?

 

[Mister Agenda]

2: Science cannot. You said it was a statement of science. It is rather a statement of atheism. I cannot falsify such an ambiguous claim. "gods do not exist" ...what does it even mean?

It could be falsified by the confirmed discovery of one real god.

 

[I Ratant]

You haven't provided any sound argument to support the claim that he would have to have been a genius of any kind in order to produce the Quran without divine intervention. You've made a lot of assertions, but no sound argument.

.
Joseph Smith pulled his book out of his hat.
LRon pulled his out of his......... imagination.
These guys were con-men.
I'd be surprised to find that Mohammed was not one also, but it's not impossible he truly believed the stuff running around in his head was more than just mental problems, although that's all they were.
We had the Heaven's Gate people kill themselves not long ago following just a leader.

 

[I Ratant]

I don't think he actually had to be anything more than a religious zealot with the ability to rile up people and organize them into an army. As there are no known copies of the Qur'an written by Muhammad, and as the book was compiled and finalized after his death, the "literary and mathematical genius" could be a committee of sheikhs and mullahs deliberately arranging and editing the suras to make them appear divine.

.
Ya think?

 

[tsig]

You depart from reality with your first sentence.

How do you gain any info from beyond the construct of the physical universe?

I said that. Science cannot. that is exactly why it does not categorically state that god etc does not exist.

Science is saying no such thing. It deals with this universe.

You are confusing atheism with science. They are two separate things.

Are you sure your post was supposed to be an answer to mine?

 

[tsig]

.
Joseph Smith pulled his book out of his hat.
LRon pulled his out of his......... imagination.
These guys were con-men.
I'd be surprised to find that Mohammed was not one also, but it's not impossible he truly believed the stuff running around in his head was more than just mental problems, although that's all they were.
We had the Heaven's Gate people kill themselves not long ago following just a leader.

People's Temple, Masada, maybe religion is good at one thing, eliminating the gullible. Evolution's Razor.

 

[I Ratant]

Group cleansing of the gene pool is good, but not community wide.
Those frustrated can't-get-none-here Jihadists that go for broke in the community, just to get laid after death.... can't they go to a brothel?
They might consider 72 is way too many women to handle at one time!
Or even serially!

 

[mikeb768]

I don't think he actually had to be anything more than a religious zealot with the ability to rile up people and organize them into an army. As there are no known copies of the Qur'an written by Muhammad, and as the book was compiled and finalized after his death, the "literary and mathematical genius" could be a committee of sheikhs and mullahs deliberately arranging and editing the suras to make them appear divine.

This book is the work of:
A) A man.
B) Many men.
C) Some intelligent beings other than men.
D) The book is sincere to its claims and authorship, thus being from God.
E) The book does not exist, logically speaking of course.

So many of us seem to agree that The Quran is not the work of one man. But some have suggested that a group of men could have complied the book. There are just a few problems with this hypothesis: Such as the more people who are involved in a project the more editing and back and fourth that would no doubt be required. We don't all think alike, humans do operate under any sort of "Hive mind" mentality.

If anyone has ever attempted to work on a project as a group, then they would no doubt agree. The following is taken from eHow.com describing some of the frustrations of attempting to write a group paper, not a book, just one paper.

"Writing a research paper with a group of other people is completely different than writing one on your own, as you are dependent on the work of others. On the other hand, a research paper made by a group can encompass a lot more than one written by a single person. However, people have different ideas and views on how things should be done, (or what should be included/removed) which is why it is important for the group to function well together."

Consider the difficulty which is described above is in regards to writing, how much more difficult would the task be if everything had to be done if all the portions of such a task were only accepted orally? Also it would seem that the portions which make up the book all seemed to have made an appearance during a period of just over two decades, while the prophet was still alive. Link

So the idea that the book which contains no errors, made accurate predictions regarding upcoming events, and remains consistent with science; the idea that book was the work of multiple authors would seem to contradict reason.

 

[Astreja]

So the idea that the book which contains no errors...

(Springy G peers out the window at an unnaturally dark sky, then sighs heavily as She grabs an alarm clock and a pair of Wellington boots) Excuse Me while I wander over to that muddy pond just west of here. Sun slept in again.

 

[gentlehorse]

I am not making any claim other than it might be the case that consciousness continues after the death of the body, but that it is not something science can observe or measure and thus would not categorically claim one way or the other.

While consciousness might continue after death, there's no reason to believe it does, as evidence of human consciousness has not been observed independent of a living, functioning human brain.

If consciousness exists in a manner that cannot, even in principle, be observed, then how can we have any knowledge of it? How can we say anything meaningful about whether it might exist? What is the difference between something that cannot be observed and something that doesn't exist?

I am not using 'faith' as I don;t pretend to know one way or the other, but accept it might be possible.

There is no reason to believe that it might be possible.

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." ~Samuel Clemens~

 

[mikeb768]

(Springy G peers out the window at an unnaturally dark sky, then sighs heavily as She grabs an alarm clock and a pair of Wellington boots) Excuse Me while I wander over to that muddy pond just west of here. Sun slept in again.

[Quran 18:86] is not meant to be taken literally.
85] One (such) way he followed,
86] Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

If you keep reading the surah, it later states the following:
89] Then followed he (another) way,
90] Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.

You never wondered why they don't bother to included the 2nd bit, "rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people", it sounds even more ridiculous than the first.

The sun rises on people, like off the tops of their heads? Or off of their backs? The reason why they never included the second part, is because it exposes the fact that both parts were obviously not meant literally.

OK, well we already addressed this earlier but if this is the best you can do, and it also makes you feel better, then by all means.

 

[Dissolution]

So the idea that the book which contains no errors, made accurate predictions regarding upcoming events, and remains consistent with science; the idea that book was the work of multiple authors would seem to contradict reason.

Which book would that be, then? You clearly aren't talking about the Quran.
It makes things a lot easier on your no errors claim when you wave away any that are found as metaphors, too.

People on this thread have already pointed out multiple errors.

 

[marplots]

I don't see what the big deal is. Read the darn book, it's pretty whack.

I got as far as the second surrah (the cow?), where is says this:
"Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

7. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment."

Pretty clear it's talking about me and the uselessness of trying to convince me. Done deal. Case closed. It's right there in the book. Allah has prevented me from ever "getting" it.

So... what's for lunch?