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Is Atheism based on Logic or Faith?

Some Examples of Logic in Islam

Uhgh. I can still remember some of those example from previous threads that you started. That is nothing to be pround on.



And if you really want to know what people (atheists, but also a large part of deists, pantheists etc) don't believe in, why don't you start your inquriry with the question if and how that entity of yours can talk. That is at least much better than this where-does-it-all-come-from schtick.

You see, to me it is perfectly possible that something uncaused, or uncreated exists. No problem at all. Whether this something has personality, there's the rub. What does personal, as in "personal God", even mean is another one. And does this "proposed" personal entity talk, surely is an interesting question, don't you think?
 
There exist a great multitude of other "isms". Some contain small portions of the truth while others not a shred.

Does there exist any process of elimination, which can help to separate fact from fiction?

There does indeed! How interesting that you would ask.
 
If multiple scholars all seem to agree that the Quran can be regarded as the finest piece of literature in the Arabic language then whats to "chuckle"?

They can all seem to be wrong. Multiply wrong, if that makes it any better.

Glad we got that settled. :D
 
No I saw this, but I also realize that most atheist disregard books as evidence from the period which we are discussing.

I, on the other hand believe that many of the ancient text which are available have credulity, even if not 100% accurate as in the case of the many books of the Bible (imo).

Take the Dead Sea Scrolls for example.

"The manuscripts have been dated to various ranges between 408 BCE and 318 CE." So these would be considered to be some of the earliest sources for the period which we are discussing? But most atheist are likely reject even these, I can't help that.

And if you still had a point to make, it would be . . . ?
 
Claiming that pixies and gods don't exist is a scientific statement, because it is falsifiable, and has predictive value.

That is correct within the construct of the physical universe, and in relation to whether or not consciousness exists after death science has no method in which to determine if this is or isn't the case, or even determining whether there are any alternate realities, or even multi/infinite number of universes (physical or otherwise).

So any statement from human science that pixies and gods (and even extraterrestrials) don't exist as far as human science is able to determine - things 'don't exist' if they are not able to be observed as existing.

But I haven't seen such statements from the practice of science, in the sense that scientists are categorically claiming that god/pixies/alternate universes etc positively do not exist, or that consciousness cannot in some non observable way survive the death of the body.

Science is not that presumptuous.

Therefore, your saying that "Claiming that pixies and gods don't exist is a scientific statement" is not correct.

How can science falsify god does not exist?

What is the "predictive value" in relation to this?
 
"Therefore it is not logical to believe either way. " Wrong My post is about there is no evidence for it. Since there is no evidence for it it is illogical and irrational to "make up" after life story. By your line of reasonning you can make any **** up and just say "it is not rational to think either way". No. No. 1000 time no. If you have a claim, you are the one by any logic which has to demonstrate the claim above the null. If you say that there is a pre-life before you are being born, and in that pre-life we are intelligent planet in anotehr universe, then it is not logic to state as you do that because we can't know we have to take both hypotheses as equally probable or logic. Not at all. The logic is to start by what we can observe and know, and then conclude. You are not using logic, you are using faith to try to trump logic.

What evidence could there be?
What am I 'making up' in relation to the possibility of afterlife?
I am not making any claim other than it might be the case that consciousness continues after the death of the body, but that it is not something science can observe or measure and thus would not categorically claim one way or the other.

I am not using 'faith' as I don;t pretend to know one way or the other, but accept it might be possible.

Faith is for those who believe that there is life after death (ETA and for those who believe that there isn;t life after death...or maybe that is 'hope' or some other reason for needing to believe) . I don't know that there is or isn;t, and even that I think it possible that there could be, I do not know what such a thing might be, therefore your claim that I am using faith is incorrect.

I am using logic.

I don't know, and I don't presume to know one way or the other.

ETA Maybe some are confusing science with atheism?
 
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That is correct within the construct of the physical universe, and in relation to whether or not consciousness exists after death science has no method in which to determine if this is or isn't the case, or even determining whether there are any alternate realities, or even multi/infinite number of universes (physical or otherwise).

So any statement from human science that pixies and gods (and even extraterrestrials) don't exist as far as human science is able to determine - things 'don't exist' if they are not able to be observed as existing.

But I haven't seen such statements from the practice of science, in the sense that scientists are categorically claiming that god/pixies/alternate universes etc positively do not exist, or that consciousness cannot in some non observable way survive the death of the body.

Science is not that presumptuous.

Therefore, your saying that "Claiming that pixies and gods don't exist is a scientific statement" is not correct.

How can science falsify god does not exist?

What is the "predictive value" in relation to this?

Lordy, you do carry-on, don't you?

Science doesn't have to falsify the claim 'gods do not exist'. Anyone is eligible to falsify that statement. You for example. What have you got?

Have you read anything about the philosophy of science?
 
Which of the listed threads do you feel was successfully "debunked' and how?

This one, and based on logical discourse :D

In fact, this thread has been one of the most bombastic examples in weeks.

Sux to be a theist on this thread.
 
If multiple scholars all seem to agree that the Quran can be regarded as the finest piece of literature in the Arabic language then whats to "chuckle"?

Anwar Chejne, who wrote "The Arabic Language: Its Role in History"
Kristina Nelson, who wrote "The Art of Reciting the Quran"
Stefan Wild, who wrote "Encounters of Words and Texts: Intercultural Studies in Honor of Stefan Wild"
Suha Taji-Farouki, who wrote "Modern Muslim Intellectuals and the Quran"

Maybe a similar type of chuckle was taking place on the decks of the Titanic just before the ship went down? I have heard of cases where people sometimes laugh to keep themselves from crying.


Can you provide us with examples about what they said about the Quran, and why we should respect their opinion on the subject, instead of you just dropping their names in your post as if these names are supposed to have some special significance to us?

For example, the first name you mention is Anwar Chejine. I have managed to find some information about professor Chejine, and he certainly seems to have been an expert on the subject. But try as I might, I can't find any quotes of his opinions about the Quran. (It's hard to find information on the internet about a relatively obscure academic who died before the internet existed.)

Moving on to the next name on your list, Kristina Nelson. Very hard to find anything about her... there are lots of people with the same name, which makes it tricky to search for information about her specifically. I'm assuming that she's not the same Kristina Nelson that does the weather report for KVAL-TV. And that she's not the Kristina Nelson who creates artworks from crayon. And that she's not the Kristina Nelson who plays woman's basketball for the University of Notre Dame. Far too many women by the same name, and typing the name into Wikipedia doesn't get me anything. So who is the Kristina Nelson that wrote what's apparently a highly acclaimed book about reciting the Quran, and why should we care about what she has to say?

What do these people you list actually say about the literary quality of the Quran, and why should we accept them as unbiased experts on the topic?

And even if you (somehow) convinced us that the Quran really is the finest work literature in the Arabic language, why should we regard this as necessarily a miracle?

For centuries Homer's epic poem The Iliad was widely regarded by the ancient Greeks as their finest work of literature, and according to some sources he couldn't read or write either (on account of being blind... assuming that the accounts of him being blind are actually true, which is questionable). Should we count that as a miracle too?

"The manuscripts have been dated to various ranges between 408 BCE and 318 CE." So these would be considered to be some of the earliest sources for the period which we are discussing? But most atheist are likely reject even these, I can't help that.

Why should atheists accept them simply because they're old? We have clay tablets dating back to around 2000 BC containing fragments of the Epic Of Gilgamesh, and fragments of independent poems relating to the Epic from around 2200 BC... should we then accept these as evidence that the events described in the Epic actually happened?

Even the US Congress seems to think that he was a man worthy of honor, not a liar

How is the opinion of the US Congress in any way relevant? How much time has Congress spent on academic matters of historical and archeological research? How many members of the US Congress have any background in historical research or archeology?
 
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No I saw this, but I also realize that most atheist disregard books as evidence from the period which we are discussing.

I, on the other hand believe that many of the ancient text which are available have credulity, even if not 100% accurate as in the case of the many books of the Bible (imo).

Take the Dead Sea Scrolls for example.

"The manuscripts have been dated to various ranges between 408 BCE and 318 CE." So these would be considered to be some of the earliest sources for the period which we are discussing? But most atheist are likely reject even these, I can't help that.

just because an old text makes Claims, does not eman the Claims are true. especially if they contradict known laws of physics and everything we experianced so far.

the Claims about miracles in old texts would Need alot of evidence, but they come without any evidence.
 
My atheism is, like my other opinions, a provisional stand conditional to future evidence. As for the "sacred" goat-herders screeds... well, if a God wanted to convince me, it could have inspired two or three commandments like "wash your hands often" or "always boil your drinking water", or even "Thou shall make a system of pipes by which your crap will flow away from thee and not kill half of the population with sickness". A "keep cats because rats are nasty" would have been a life saver also. Instead we've got pap.
 
That is correct within the construct of the physical universe, and in relation to whether or not consciousness exists after death science has no method in which to determine if this is or isn't the case, or even determining whether there are any alternate realities, or even multi/infinite number of universes (physical or otherwise).

What other kind of universe is there other than the physical, material one?

There is no credible evidence to suggest that any component of a living entity, whether a ‘soul’ or ‘consciousness’ or whatever, exists after death. Why would you think it does?

So any statement from human science that pixies and gods (and even extraterrestrials) don't exist as far as human science is able to determine - things 'don't exist' if they are not able to be observed as existing.

But I haven't seen such statements from the practice of science, in the sense that scientists are categorically claiming that god/pixies/alternate universes etc positively do not exist, or that consciousness cannot in some non observable way survive the death of the body.

Science is not that presumptuous.

Therefore, your saying that "Claiming that pixies and gods don't exist is a scientific statement" is not correct.

How can science falsify god does not exist?

What is the "predictive value" in relation to this?

There is no substantiated evidence of gods or pixies. Therefore it is a falsifiable scientific statement (i.e. assuming that a scientist could be bothered making it in the first place)and readily falsifiable by producing verified evidence of gods or pixies.
 
Answering that tired, threadbare screed is not worth the time you spent typing it.
Here use my petunias,

Where have I heard the "It's a metaphor" excuse before....
If it can't be used to support the god botherer's theories or is obviously contradicted by reality, then "it's a metaphor". One of the standard excuses.

So do you believe the Jewish people to have made this up this whole story of the Jewish exodus from Egypt? Or do you think of it as an actual event in history?
No it didn't happen. There is no supporting evidence and it contradicts known reality.

Thought this might be relevant to the discussion

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_28152a57dc2388b7.png

This one true god just can't get itself understood properly, can it?
That tree needs more branches, for example Catholicism isn't monolithic.

mike768, did you miss this?
I suspect he just ignore it.
 
You ran away from your first thread on numerology when it didn't go your way. The fact of the matter is that you can find numerical patterns in just about any book if you look hard enough. That does not prove it has some deeper meaning, or even that the author intended it that way. Language is a system of symbols, and written forms like songs and poetic verse are based on repeating patterns. So of course you're going to get numerical patterns. This in no way makes the Quran unique, or more valid than other religious texts. In case you didn't realize it, there's also a ton of numerological interpretation that's been written about the Hebrew and Christian Bibles. I don't presume you pay them any more heed than atheists pay to your holy book.

Sure, lets follow your premise and take a look. Can you provide us with at least one example of the things which you have mentioned. We should be able to compare and evaluate them, wouldn't you agree?
 
mikeb, who are you trying to convince, and of what?

The discussion is mainly aimed at people who deal in the realm of "reason" and "logic", if you read the OP. Although I realize (and some have already mentioned) that everyone does not fall into this group.
 

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