Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Kevin_Lowe]

Exactly. If the watch had been returned to Ms Diaz, don't you think the defense would have been all over that? At the moment, there is only speculation as to the gold watch. We know that Ms. Diaz was burglarized, but what we don't know is by who. There certainly isn't proof that Rudy did it. But it certainly is highly suspicious.

I don't think the link is at all strong. There are lots of gold watches in the world Rudy could have stolen.

 

[Grinder]

Exactly. If the watch had been returned to Ms Diaz, don't you think the defense would have been all over that? At the moment, there is only speculation as to the gold watch. We know that Ms. Diaz was burglarized, but what we don't know is by who. There certainly isn't proof that Rudy did it. But it certainly is highly suspicious.

How do you know a gold watch was stolen from Diaz the neighbor? I've looked and the only hits from Google go back to Nina. I see no mention of it in Massei. I can find no mention of it anywhere by the defense.

If the story is true, the PR supertanker isn't doing it's job.

Perhaps Charlie can let them know they should get the facts and spread the news.

Burning down a house, killing a cat and stealing the watch is somewhat game changing, dontcha think?

 

[acbytesla]

How do you know a gold watch was stolen from Diaz the neighbor? I've looked and the only hits from Google go back to Nina. I see no mention of it in Massei. I can find no mention of it anywhere by the defense.

If the story is true, the PR supertanker isn't doing it's job.

Perhaps Charlie can let them know they should get the facts and spread the news.

Burning down a house, killing a cat and stealing the watch is somewhat game changing, dontcha think?

Absolutely and this has been the point, but without the watch, no one can prove that Rudy did this.

 

[Grinder]

NO! Has anyone ever told you that you are an exasperating man?

Wadda you think?

Willfully or blindly, you misunderstand my method of thinking. I see Lalli's report as one of many data points that support a coherent, credible explanation of what happened. The presence of digested matter in the intestine or duodenum would not contradict this explanation. The absence of digested matter strengthens it. But, the explanation does not arise from this reported fact and does not depend on it. If this element of the autopsy report was proved incorrect, the explanation would stand.

It seemed you were cherry-picking. We were discussing BAC which Lalli had at .043. While you accept his duodenum analysis you reject his BAC work, whereas I'm willing to accept both.

I find the lack of chyme in the duodenum to be on the high end of time for that to occur. This is from online research and comments made here.

Contrast with the two-knife theory, where one doubtful DNA result props up an implausible claim that is not corroborated by any other evidence. Similarly, you can toss out the idea that maybe Meredith had a drink when she got home. It would be significant if true. But no other evidence supports it. There is no wine glass, no beer bottle in the wastebasket, no sign of activity in the kitchen. A marginal BAC finding, at least 30 hours post mortem, stands alone. It is exactly the kind of lab result that cannot be trusted. To my knowledge, nobody has tried to say it could or should be trusted. I will not accept it as reliable evidence that my understanding of what happened in this case is wrong.

Marginal BAC? I think not. That's what I was talking about? Apparently some prosecution witness challenged the duodenum work and no one challenged the BAC work (think Maresca) yet BAC is marginal.

You narrow the drinking to in the cottage and I'm not sure we know that there was no container from which alcohol could have been consumed. She could have gone downstairs and had a shot from the bottle she bought Giacomo. She might have had something at the pizza party. She could had a few drinks before going to the party delaying digestion.

 

[Supernaut]

I don't think the link is at all strong. There are lots of gold watches in the world Rudy could have stolen.

Just a coincidence, then?

 

[Supernaut]

IMO, Guede, stupid as he is, wasn't SO stupid as to repeatedly try to sell traceable stuff (like laptops - probably warranty-registered with the manufacturer, readily identifiable jewellery, watches etc') that he'd stolen in Perugia ... in Perugia.

That's why he was in Milan.

And he had a relative there, was familiar with the city.

And - what the Hell, a nice week-end away while he was at it.

Who'd a thunk it?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Wadda you think?



It seemed you were cherry-picking. We were discussing BAC which Lalli had at .043. While you accept his duodenum analysis you reject his BAC work, whereas I'm willing to accept both.

I find the lack of chyme in the duodenum to be on the high end of time for that to occur. This is from online research and comments made here.



Marginal BAC? I think not. That's what I was talking about? Apparently some prosecution witness challenged the duodenum work and no one challenged the BAC work (think Maresca) yet BAC is marginal.

You narrow the drinking to in the cottage and I'm not sure we know that there was no container from which alcohol could have been consumed. She could have gone downstairs and had a shot from the bottle she bought Giacomo. She might have had something at the pizza party. She could had a few drinks before going to the party delaying digestion.

I narrow my inquiry to what is relevant to the crime. She might have had a drink before she got home that nobody reported, but if she did, it doesn't change what happened any more than if she had a cup of coffee. I'm not interested in reconstructing every moment of her day, unless it has some relevance to the crime.

If she came home and poured herself a drink and consumed it, that could be relevant to the crime. It would suggest she was home for some period of time before she was attacked, which is possible but IMO unlikely. The BAC test is not reliable evidence in this regard, and that is the only context in which it interests me.

 

[acbytesla]

I narrow my inquiry to what is relevant to the crime. She might have had a drink before she got home that nobody reported, but if she did, it doesn't change what happened any more than if she had a cup of coffee. I'm not interested in reconstructing every moment of her day, unless it has some relevance to the crime.

If she came home and poured herself a drink and consumed it, that could be relevant to the crime. It would suggest she was home for some period of time before she was attacked, which is possible but IMO unlikely. The BAC test is not reliable evidence in this regard, and that is the only context in which it interests me.

I'm with you Charlie. If Meredith's BAC was actually that high, her British friends would have noticed. It's possible that Meredith would have had a drink when she got home, but that is irrelevant to her digestion rate. Grinder is working hard to play devils advocate.

 

[RandyN]

I don't think the link is at all strong. There are lots of gold watches in the world Rudy could have stolen.

I agree...there are lots of ladies gold watches...well many ladies gold watches. I wonder how many were reported missing in Perugia which is rather smallish?

I do remain interested in that one watch found in Guedes possession during his burglary with a deadly weapon inside a school however.... a building which he apparently walked thru the walls to get inside of...or did he have a key from a visit earlier when the school was robbed of thousands of Euros? AND WTH do we not know this stuff still?

Where is this watch? Why is this unknown? Why is it unknown how Guede got inside the school? Why is it unknown where, how or even if the computer and cell phone were ever returned? I'm guessing the police kept these until after Guede was safely locked away with the reduced sentence. Are they in a drawer with the interrogation tapes?

I am such a skeptic...;-)

 

[Strozzi]

I don't think the link is at all strong. There are lots of gold watches in the world Rudy could have stolen.

Yes, but let's see if we can narrow it down to a watch stolen from Perugia.

Mrs. Diaz lived next door to Rudy. IIRC, Rudy and Mrs. Diaz osscaionally saw each other in the early morning outside their neighboring buildings because Mrs. Diaz walked her small dog and Rudy often stood out front in order to get cell phone connection that that he could not get inside his rented room. In fact Rudy occasionally petted her small dog and they spoke a little. Mrs. Diaz saw Rudy outside there when she loaded her car for her trip the day she went away and her home was burglarized. Rudy saw her load her car with luggage for her trip.

A burglar broke into Mrs. Diaz home. The burglar remained inside her home for a considerable amount of time that day. He made himself at home. He prepared a feast in her kitchen, according to a fireman who responded to the house fire. The burglar stole a gold woman's watch during the burglary. There were indications that the burglar took a nap on a bed upstairs. He may have covered a table lamp with a cloth to lower the light which is a burglar technique. The cloth apparently caught fire and burned her home, causing Ms. Diaz great property loss.

Rudy had a woman's gold watch in his knapsack in Milan. It was just a few weeks after Mrs. Diaz's watch was stolen from her home the day Rudy watched her load her car for a trip.

Rudy makes himself at home when he breaks into a property. He is not in a hurry to leave. He takes his time. He may sleep there. He steals small items. He eats from the kitchen. He uses the toilet. He carries stolen items in his knapsack.

What have I missed? What do I have wrong?

 

[RandyN]

Wadda you think?



It seemed you were cherry-picking. We were discussing BAC which Lalli had at .043. While you accept his duodenum analysis you reject his BAC work, whereas I'm willing to accept both.

I find the lack of chyme in the duodenum to be on the high end of time for that to occur. This is from online research and comments made here.



Marginal BAC? I think not. That's what I was talking about? Apparently some prosecution witness challenged the duodenum work and no one challenged the BAC work (think Maresca) yet BAC is marginal.

You narrow the drinking to in the cottage and I'm not sure we know that there was no container from which alcohol could have been consumed. She could have gone downstairs and had a shot from the bottle she bought Giacomo. She might have had something at the pizza party. She could had a few drinks before going to the party delaying digestion.

While I can agree that the alcohol thing could be marginally meaningful I don't see it altering the bell curve for transition into the duodenum. At least not so much and so far outside the normal range to get to Mignini's crazy numbers. Plus, there is other circumstantial evidence that I can add up for TOD. The alcohol thing has no corroboration at all. The girls seem to deny it. The police make no mention of any evidence (glasses, bottles,etc) beyond the lab result. So the rough equivalent of one drink is in the victims tissues or blood? Almost meaningless IMO. Was she taking NyQuil?

Grinder may or may not be playing, but his grasp of the info is very good to great and his comment stimulates everyone to rethink even harder. I'm still going with a defense who couldn't argue their way out of a wet paper sack... given the crazy absent of evidence nature of things used to convict these innocents...I admit the benefit of hind sight gives me quite an advantage. But then again, I was saying this as I watched the defense doze and sit on their hands as hell was rained down onto their clients. IE...AK says the police hit me...later her lawyer goes on TV and says we don't claim the police hit Knox....nice guy....crappy lawyer.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I agree...there are lots of ladies gold watches...well many ladies gold watches. I wonder how many were reported missing in Perugia which is rather smallish?

I do remain interested in that one watch found in Guedes possession during his burglary with a deadly weapon inside a school however.... a building which he apparently walked thru the walls to get inside of...or did he have a key from a visit earlier when the school was robbed of thousands of Euros? AND WTH do we not know this stuff still?

Where is this watch? Why is this unknown? Why is it unknown how Guede got inside the school? Why is it unknown where, how or even if the computer and cell phone were ever returned? I'm guessing the police kept these until after Guede was safely locked away with the reduced sentence. Are they in a drawer with the interrogation tapes?

I am such a skeptic...;-)

I believe Guede was in fact found with a watch stolen from a lady's apt. in Milan, where he caused a fire in the course of the burglary. Bob Graham tracked this down at some point, years ago. I don't know if he ever published the details.

I have been looking for the article where Graham wrote about his investigation of Guede. I have my archives by date, and I can't remember when this was or who published it. It was one of the tabloids. Does anyone else remember?

 

[RandyN]

Betting that Charlie doesn't ask if you are an expert.

He probably already knows from other posts that I trained as a pathologists assistant at AFIP in DC in the military and assisted at more than 1000 autopsies while condemned ....errr serving during the Vietnam era. Not an expert but I know a little.

You have it 180 off. I think Lalli was one of the best in the PLE and always thought his being thrown off the case by Mignini was because he would be harder to control.

I think he was a professional and did a good job on the BAC and the duodenum.


No, actually if you read closely I am not 180 off. I also think Lalli did a fine job. He did forget to weigh the body which is a number to plug into a TOD calculation but honestly it is not a critical number and a close guess would be fine since the body temps were so old anyway. I guessed MK at 120 lbs. Back when I did this I was metric minded...now I retracted back to the holdout USA measurements...lbs, inches , feet, miles, gallons...non scientific but still cool.



How do you know if you haven't seen it? Is there a report or story of some sort where a person that saw this video is quoted?

While I have always trusted Lalli's work, could it be that the video doesn't show what you say?


Perhaps you should read the posts on the subject which include cites of what the experts said. Funny that this is something that a conclusion can't be made from since so many other conclusions are made from so little.



I've explained some of the possibilities that might be of significance.

While I have always believed in Lalli's work perhaps I should reconsider ALL of his work.

One of the great mysteries here has been why the defense hasn't pounded on the state of Meredith's digestive tract. Rolfe has made it clear that she believes the death occurred at 9:05 pm primarily because of the lack of chyme in the duodenum. Most she believes that earliest time because three hours after beginning eating is on the long end of that process starting.

From everything discussed here a very good reason needs to be given for that process not have started by 10 at the absolute latest.

Why didn't the defense pound on this in the first trial when the prosecution was saying that the murder happened after 11 at night?

For the first time Randy has made me wonder if the video of the autopsy proves the duodenum check was done as perfectly as I was always under the impression it was.

Does someone have a good reason why the defense didn't pound the issue?

Yep, I do...because they were out of their depth and never understood the issues. It did not help that Mignini tried to hide Lalli evidence by creating a smoke screen that Lalli improperly leaked to the press.

For the record the defense failed to argue that Knox was struck and coerced into signing something she could not understand. And though they supposedly went to the SC on the interrogation matter they simply and calmly allowed the Perugia courts to completely side step their own ruling....which is why we are still talking about "poor Lumumba".

A court of fools from top to bottom. And the people are clueless.

 

[acbytesla]

I believe Guede was in fact found with a watch stolen from a lady's apt. in Milan, where he caused a fire in the course of the burglary. Bob Graham tracked this down at some point, years ago. I don't know if he ever published the details.

I have been looking for the article where Graham wrote about his investigation of Guede. I have my archives by date, and I can't remember when this was or who published it. It was one of the tabloids. Does anyone else remember?

The law firm was burglarized on October 13

On October 23 Rudy's next door neighbor on Via Cannerino Mrs. Madu Diaz was burglarized and her home was set fire to. Her jewelry box was cleaned out including a gold watch that belonged to her mother. There was extensive damage to her home and her cat that died in the fire.

Rudy was found by Maria Del Prato in her nursery with a ladies gold watch, a laptop and and a knife taken from the nursery's kitchen on October 27. No one knows what happened to the watch.

This is all in Nina Burleigh's The Fatal Gift of Beauty. Pages 127 through 130.

 

[RandyN]

I believe Guede was in fact found with a watch stolen from a lady's apt. in Milan, where he caused a fire in the course of the burglary. Bob Graham tracked this down at some point, years ago. I don't know if he ever published the details.

I have been looking for the article where Graham wrote about his investigation of Guede. I have my archives by date, and I can't remember when this was or who published it. It was one of the tabloids. Does anyone else remember?

Hummm first I heard this. So not RG neighbor watch or apartment? Or am I reading it wrong. Perugia apartment, Perugia watch, discovered during his arrest....errr detainment in Milan?

DO the police do reports in Italy? Anyone?

 

[RWVBWL]

Practicing the MO...

The witnesses Paolo Brocchi and Matteo Palazzoli, lawyers, testified on the subject of the burglary of their legal office, located in via del Roscetto 3, Perugia, on the night between Saturday October 13 and Sunday October 14, 2007. The thief or thieves had entered through a window whose panes had been smashed with a rather large stone; the glass was scattered around, and they had found some of their clothing on top of the glass (p. 10, hearing June 6, 2009). From the first inventory they did, they found that a computer, a cell phone, USB keys and a portable printer were missing. On October 29, a colleague in the law office had called the lawyer Paolo Brocchi to tell him that in the corridor was a person who said that he had been found with some goods in Milan, goods that had been declared stolen by the lawyer Brocchi, but which he claimed to have purchased legitimately in Milan. Later, the lawyer Paolo Brocchi recognised this person as Rudy Guede (p. 20, hearing of June 6, 2009)

Man, what the heck is goin' on?!?

A break -in done with a rather large stone, err, like a 9 pounder?
Broken window glass found underneath the lawyers clothing items?

SOUND FAMILIAR?!?

What the heck were Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito doing breaking into The Lawyers Office???
Oh wait a sec, that classical music concert even hadn't been performed yet,
Raff hadn't even met Amanda yet, ecks, Amanda musta been out on the town practicin' B+E by herself!
I wonder, was it she that turned off the Lawyers Office burglar alarm?
And who got the printer? Rudy didn't...

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I will keep asking around

An empirical study?

I dont have any citations yet. I thought I would start by asking health professionals, then trying to find supporting infomation in the literature.

 

[RandyN]

The law firm was burglarized on October 13

On October 23 Rudy's next door neighbor on Via Cannerino Mrs. Madu Diaz was burglarized and her home was set fire to. Her jewelry box was cleaned out including a gold watch that belonged to her mother. There was extensive damage to her home and her cat that died in the fire.

He was found in the nursery with a gold watch on October 27. No one knows what happened to the watch.
This is all in Nina Burleigh's The Fatal Gift of Beauty. Pages 127 through 130.

Well sure then I can see how it could have been any of hundreds of gold watches stolen near that time in Italy... NOT! This case is sickening and insulting to even stupid people, let alone to you brilliant shining geniuses. But the Italians insist on playing stupid and with straight faces...shameful and sinful.

 

[RWVBWL]

Yes, but let's see if we can narrow it down to a watch stolen from Perugia.

Mrs. Diaz lived next door to Rudy. IIRC, Rudy and Mrs. Diaz osscaionally saw each other in the early morning outside their neighboring buildings because Mrs. Diaz walked her small dog and Rudy often stood out front in order to get cell phone connection that that he could not get inside his rented room. In fact Rudy occasionally petted her small dog and they spoke a little. Mrs. Diaz saw Rudy outside there when she loaded her car for her trip the day she went away and her home was burglarized. Rudy saw her load her car with luggage for her trip.

A burglar broke into Mrs. Diaz home. The burglar remained inside her home for a considerable amount of time that day. He made himself at home. He prepared a feast in her kitchen, according to a fireman who responded to the house fire. The burglar stole a gold woman's watch during the burglary. There were indications that the burglar took a nap on a bed upstairs. He may have covered a table lamp with a cloth to lower the light which is a burglar technique. The cloth apparently caught fire and burned her home, causing Ms. Diaz great property loss.

Rudy had a woman's gold watch in his knapsack in Milan. It was just a few weeks after Mrs. Diaz's watch was stolen from her home the day Rudy watched her load her car for a trip.

Rudy makes himself at home when he breaks into a property. He is not in a hurry to leave. He takes his time. He may sleep there. He steals small items. He eats from the kitchen. He uses the toilet. He carries stolen items in his knapsack.

What have I missed? What do I have wrong?

Heya Strozzi,
It was not Ms. Mandu-Diaz gold watch,
BUT her Mothers gold watch, whom I believe was deceased...

Gosh,
don't ya'all luv your neighbors? I'm sure Ms. Mandu-Diaz does.
I do find it funny how Christian T. also recognized that it was neighbor Rudy Guede who he found in his apartment 1 night...
Weird how Christian had to unlock his front door to let Guede out,
right?

 

[acbytesla]

Heya Strozzi,
It was not Ms. Mandu-Diaz gold watch,
BUT her Mothers gold watch, whom I believe was deceased...

Gosh,
don't ya'all luv your neighbors? I'm sure Ms. Mandu-Diaz does.
I do find it funny how Christian T. also recognized that it was neighbor Rudy Guede who he found in his apartment 1 night...
Weird how Christian had to unlock his front door to let Guede out,
right?

If her mother was dead, I think the watch belonged to Mrs. Mandu Diaz....Don't you?