Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

To clarify for those of us in the peanut gallery:
.43 g/l =.043 in the system used in the US which corresponds to two drinks consumed very recently or a lot drinks consumed many hours before.

If the post-mortem BAC was accurate (which seems to be disputed here*) and there was a witness to her consumption of the alcohol (which there doesn't seem to be) then the finding would point to the notion that she was killed very soon after she had ingested the alcohol because so little of it had been metabolized (assuming that I understand this correctly).

As it is, speaking as a peanut gallery participant it doesn't look like there is much to conclude at all here since the facts are in dispute and the interpretation of the facts is in dispute even if there was agreement on what the facts were.

* Charlie Wilkes thinks the .43 result was clearly in error and the actual result was that only a trace of alcohol was present.

There was a second test at the beginning that came in with a very high BAC. As you can imagine this was of interest but it was determined that some error had been made. They then ran the additional test of the liver that was consistent with Lalli's blood test. No one contested his findings in any way and the results were entered into the record.

The .43 g/l is about one drink I think.

 

[yimyammer]

Ouch! But he'd be doing life in Italy.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

To clarify for those of us in the peanut gallery:
.43 g/l =.043 in the system used in the US which corresponds to two drinks consumed very recently or a lot drinks consumed many hours before.

If the post-mortem BAC was accurate (which seems to be disputed here*) and there was a witness to her consumption of the alcohol (which there doesn't seem to be) then the finding would point to the notion that she was killed very soon after she had ingested the alcohol because so little of it had been metabolized (assuming that I understand this correctly).

As it is, speaking as a peanut gallery participant it doesn't look like there is much to conclude at all here since the facts are in dispute and the interpretation of the facts is in dispute even if there was agreement on what the facts were.

* Charlie Wilkes thinks the .43 result was clearly in error and the actual result was that only a trace of alcohol was present.

I don't dispute the finding per se, but from everything I have read over the years, it might have resulted from changes in her blood chemistry after she died rather than consumption of alcoholic beverages prior to her death. The pathologist was not allowed to examine her for a full 24 hours after her death, and I don't know when the samples were taken.

I have also heard about cases where alcohol swabs contaminate these tests, because they only use a couple drops of blood.

I am not an expert, but I have plowed through forensic textbooks and a hundreds of crime books and followed crime news obsessively for a couple of decades. Bad or misleading lab work, whether it's DNA, BAC, drug use, poisoning, or anything else, is pervasive. If a lab result is out of sync with everything else, I tend to question the lab result - or the meaning of the result - before revamping my overall assessment of what happened.

 

[Annella]

Good points and I'm inclined to draw the same conclusion that this is what he was doing if he wasn't there to return the laptop, although I think its weird that he would make a trip to the law office merely to apologize. For what? Would you apologize to someone for unknowingly buying their stolen merchandise?

Perhaps I incorrectly inferred from Grinders quote that Rudy was returning the laptop and if so, I wouldn't think he would need to apologize since all he claims he did was buy it from someone (I obviously don't believe this story) and an apology would imply he was guilty of something more than buying stolen merchandise (which I think he was, so perhaps the apology was a slip-up driven by his guilty conscious).

From Massei: Matteo Palazzoli is Paolo Brocchi's Law partner.....


Palazzoli was asked details about the stolen computer. All he could state was that it was a Sony Vaio with a white panel and a 16:9 screen that allowed for wide-angle viewing. He did not know the model number. Rudy Guede was discovered with a computer which it is assumed was the stolen computer but this has never been established because of a confusion in processing the seizure of the computer. The computer had been sent to Perugia but Palazzoli filed to have it returned in Milan.[1]
Palazzoli was asked if he ever recovered the computer and responded no explaining that when he filed a request to have it returned there was no record of it.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

There was a second test at the beginning that came in with a very high BAC. As you can imagine this was of interest but it was determined that some error had been made. They then ran the additional test of the liver that was consistent with Lalli's blood test. No one contested his findings in any way and the results were entered into the record.

The .43 g/l is about one drink I think.

I am not contesting the findings. I don't dispute that alcohol may have been present in the samples in the quantities he measured. I question whether it means she was drinking. Did he say that is what it meant? Did anyone - prosecution or defense - testify at the trial that forensic evidence showed Meredith had consumed alcohol on the day or evening of her murder?

 

[RWVBWL]

A Few Songs...

I do not believe A & R were involved, but I do want to add one more fact to the evidence that indicates Meredith was attacked early on upon entering her home. Please first bear in mind that she was feeding the downstairs guys' cat and watering her boyfriend's marijuana plants as they were out of town for the long holiday weekend. Don't know if she did that first upon arriving home at about 8:55 pm but if she did she might have first gone into her upstairs flat to grab the keys for downstairs, or had them with her and gone directly into their lower flat, for 5 minutes or so, or she could have skipped those chores and just entered her upstairs flat for the night at about 8:55 pm.

In either case, Rudy Guede stated that he heard a terrible scream as he killed her - erh, I mean as he grooved to the music on the toilet while "some other guy" killed her. He stated the scream was at about 9:20 pm, if I remember correctly. Many people maintain that although Rudy tells many lies, he may be telling the truth about the time of the scream as he may fear it was heard by others and can be verified. No need to lie about that one fact, especially if someone might have heard it and could catch Rudy lying with a false time.

I dig the nice find that Dan O. presented yesterday with regards to the the missing downstairs keys,
it answered a question that this long time follower of this horrible murder case had wondered about.

On that note,
I've always wondered what Guede was grooving to as he took a crap in Meredith's flat, and I just found this tidbity:

When I was in the bathroom, I listened to two or three songs, including:
Outta my system von lil bow bow

Get low von Lil Sont und

Dirty von chamillo

Link:
Good ol' Candace Dempsey!
http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/04/28/rudy-guede-amanda-knox-was-not-there/


As it's Saturday night in L.A., party time,
I just took a few minutes and listened to what Rudy Guede likes.
Why don't you too?

Here's a video of song #1:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4f794_bow-wow-ft-t-pain-outta-my-system_music

Song #2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl8X7fqOUQo

Song #2 is heavy ^^^^!
I dare you, wait a few seconds and then skip the ad on song 2,
then read and listen to the lyrics to help you better understand the mental picture that was probably runnin' through poor Rudy Guede's mind that night while on a 1st Date with Meredith Kercher...

If the Guede-o was listenin' to Get Low, it's pretty revealing what was on his mind,
but yet I still think that it's kinda weird how the dude did not even pack some condoms as he dressed and prepped before headin' over there, right?

 

[RandyN]

Good points and I'm inclined to draw the same conclusion that this is what he was doing if he wasn't there to return the laptop, although I think its weird that he would make a trip to the law office merely to apologize. For what? Would you apologize to someone for unknowingly buying their stolen merchandise?

Perhaps I incorrectly inferred from Grinders quote that Rudy was returning the laptop and if so, I wouldn't think he would need to apologize since all he claims he did was buy it from someone (I obviously don't believe this story) and an apology would imply he was guilty of something more than buying stolen merchandise (which I think he was, so perhaps the apology was a slip-up driven by his guilty conscious).

Naw...I think the police made him go to the law office. Either to return the computer and apologize or to just apologize, but then we should easily be able to determine if the computer was returned by police...Heck Frank could stop in and ask the lawyers right.

I think someone should investigate this computer, the gold watch and the whole Milan arrest and release because it just seems so irregular and incredibly incompetent for any police to treat these crimes so casually unless something else (like Guede being a known informant perhaps) explains it...but then that should also be easy enough to determine. Breaking and entering... a school none the less, and armed with a deadly weapon, and in possession of property known to be stolen from another city...one where the criminal is from and oh...burglary tools and a ladies gold watch...and the police are somehow satisfied with his answers about all this strange phenomena and so release him him on his merry way with no further judicial action???

I don't need to state that Italian police must be stupid...their actions prove that beyond any doubt! Why the press, public or PI or defense lawyers ignore this critical data seems to indicate they are all stupid idiots! Feel free to disagree but then please explain just this one curve on the logic train track.

The puzzler is why NO ONE in all of Italy seems interested in answering this easily solvable anomaly in the Milan/Perugia mafia...err police department actions.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

But you believe the duodenum work that Lalli did, right? You are willing to draw conclusions from that, aren't you?

I'm going by the totality of the evidence. What Lalli reported is consistent with the evidence showing that Meredith was killed after she walked in on a burglary around 9 pm.

I do not know enough to debate the possibility that he screwed up the autopsy by pushing intestinal contents back into the stomach without realizing it. I don't know if this ever happens, or how common it might be.

I suspect - don't know - that it is far less common than a lab test showing alcohol in the blood of someone who had not been drinking before her death, but had been dead for more than 24 hours before the blood was drawn. I know enough to realize that does actually happen.

 

[Annella]

Naw...I think the police made him go to the law office. Either to return the computer and apologize or to just apologize, but then we should easily be able to determine if the computer was returned by police...Heck Frank could stop in and ask the lawyers right.

I think someone should investigate this computer, the gold watch and the whole Milan arrest and release because it just seems so irregular and incredibly incompetent for any police to treat these crimes so casually unless something else (like Guede being a known informant perhaps) explains it...but then that should also be easy enough to determine. Breaking and entering... a school none the less, and armed with a deadly weapon, and in possession of property known to be stolen from another city...one where the criminal is from and oh...burglary tools and a ladies gold watch...and the police are somehow satisfied with his answers about all this strange phenomena and so release him him on his merry way with no further judicial action???

I don't need to state that Italian police must be stupid...their actions prove that beyond any doubt! Why the press, public or PI or defense lawyers ignore this critical data seems to indicate they are all stupid idiots! Feel free to disagree but then please explain just this one curve on the logic train track.

The puzzler is why NO ONE in all of Italy seems interested in answering this easily solvable anomaly in the Milan/Perugia mafia...err police department actions.

Randy....see evidence from Massei re the computer from Brocchi office a few posts up....

ETA: This was garnered from TMoMK site, but definitely references Palazzoli's testimony.

 

[RandyN]

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I can't help but wonder if Meredith came into the cottage and then for safety sake locked the door behind her with the key locking Rudy into the house. Meredith then heads back to her bedroom. Rudy then comes out of the bathroom and might have left out the front door, but because Meredith locked it, his only choice is to go out through Filomena's window and exiting through the window is actually scarier than climbing through it. So he ends up confronting Meredith in her bedroom.
yimyammer
"Funny, I wrote almost the exact same scenario, I swear I didn't read your post before I posted mine."




Sure this readily comes to nearly everyone because this is highly likey what actually happened. Although other evidence indicates that Guede was discovered by MK either trying the front door or while still sitting on the pot. Other wise he just has no reason to make up the pants falling down story ....which I happen to think happened in some form or another.

MK heard him and came to investigate or else smelled him or saw the light in there and discovered him and ran screaming to her room because the front door was locked and her key was back there and the stupid illegal lock had them both trapped inside. Panic escalated to where Guede felt the need to kill her in order to silence her. After the first stab there was no going back for him...it fits and is logical. His pathological nature came out when he decided to check out and abuse her bleeding, dying body. Also proven by the evidence.

 

[RWVBWL]

RandyN,
I wish that you had read some of LMT's old blog posts about the lawyers office.
Too bad I can not find any of them nowadays, they were eye openers...

 

[e740JPH]

Naw...I think the police made him go to the law office. Either to return the computer and apologize or to just apologize, but then we should easily be able to determine if the computer was returned by police...Heck Frank could stop in and ask the lawyers right.

I think someone should investigate this computer, the gold watch and the whole Milan arrest and release because it just seems so irregular and incredibly incompetent for any police to treat these crimes so casually unless something else (like Guede being a known informant perhaps) explains it...but then that should also be easy enough to determine. Breaking and entering... a school none the less, and armed with a deadly weapon, and in possession of property known to be stolen from another city...one where the criminal is from and oh...burglary tools and a ladies gold watch...and the police are somehow satisfied with his answers about all this strange phenomena and so release him him on his merry way with no further judicial action???

I don't need to state that Italian police must be stupid...their actions prove that beyond any doubt! Why the press, public or PI or defense lawyers ignore this critical data seems to indicate they are all stupid idiots! Feel free to disagree but then please explain just this one curve on the logic train track.

The puzzler is why NO ONE in all of Italy seems interested in answering this easily solvable anomaly in the Milan/Perugia mafia...err police department actions.

Thanks, Randy,
You are like a chainsaw, the cuts are rough, but the job surely gets done! How dare you be so anti-Machiavellian! no sophistry here! Thanks!.

 

[RandyN]

From Massei: Matteo Palazzoli is Paolo Brocchi's Law partner.....


Palazzoli was asked details about the stolen computer. All he could state was that it was a Sony Vaio with a white panel and a 16:9 screen that allowed for wide-angle viewing. He did not know the model number. Rudy Guede was discovered with a computer which it is assumed was the stolen computer but this has never been established because of a confusion in processing the seizure of the computer. The computer had been sent to Perugia but Palazzoli filed to have it returned in Milan.[1]
Palazzoli was asked if he ever recovered the computer and responded no explaining that when he filed a request to have it returned there was no record of it.

Great and why are they asking the partner and NOT the owner of the computer about it? Stupid Italians.

And if there is no record in Milan of this computer then what does Milan say they did with it? They have to say one of two things. We sent it to Perugia via ??? Or we requested Guede to return it.

You want your link above to explain the computer away but Massei provides nothing but more questions about it. Perhaps they have more data at TJMK. This seems like something The Machine could easily track down.

Or does TJMK... like Italy, want us to simply ignore this "missing" computer? What does Pete say about the ladies gold watch and the stolen knife found on Guede? Anything? No? I didn't think so.

 

[RWVBWL]

The Best Rap Track EVER!

MK heard him and came to investigate or else smelled him or saw the light in there and discovered him and ran screaming to her room because the front door was locked and her key was back there and the stupid illegal lock had them both trapped inside. Panic escalated to where Guede felt the need to kill her in order to silence her. After the first stab there was no going back for him...it fits and is logical. His pathological nature came out when he decided to check out and abuse her bleeding, dying body. Also proven by the evidence.

Heya RandyN,
Click on that link in my above post of A Few Songs to Get Low,
a song that Guede was apparently listening to when Meredith came home, some of those lyrics, well...

"Let me see you get low, you scared you, scared you,
drop dat ^^^ to the floor, you scared you, scared you"...

There's a few versions of it, PG and R-rated,
Which do ya think Guede was listenin' to?
A 20 something year old dude is listenin' to the hardcore version!

Here's another version of what someone recently posted was the best "rap" track EVER!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl6ew6ftTYM

Esh, read some of the comments from this version, posted on YouTube back in Dec. of 2007.
Heck lil' 8th grade girlz are dancin' to this song! Yikes!

 

[RandyN]

How much do you really know about this?

He is trying to infer that Lalli is a dip stick. I have better proof that he could use. Lalli forgot to weigh the body! One of the first things you do at an autopsy.

None the less video evidence (not publicly available) that he properly segregated the digestive system is proof beyond doubt that he did do this correctly and so we can trust the digestive data.

The alcohol from what I recall is perhaps worth someone taking the time to go back and revisit (I wont do this because I simply don't have time) From memory I seem to recall that one "expert" found an excessive BAC which indicated something near a lethal level of BAC but a retest was done and a tiny level of alcohol was revealed and the conclusion was improper storage of the test sample IIRC. I'm pretty sure the high BAC was wrong since MK was able to walk home according to the evidence. Now did the Britt pals lie about having wine with supper? Going by their one sided dishonest testimony I would lean towards yes...yes they did lie...errr forget about that fact. Or the tiny level could be from the drunken excess the night before...it hardly matters since no conclusion can be made about it.

Grinder want us to think that MK may have entertained or imbibed after leaving SP. Sure OK...did the police find the empties? Was alcohol available at the cottage? All plain and simple and easily determined data. Just ask the police what they discovered. There should be no guess work necessary. If there is then no conclusion can be made from the missing data IMO. Just WAG's that are pointless.


ETA...Lalli is a pathologist. A lab tech would do the BAC test. So sure the autopsy could be right and the lab test wrong...this is just not that tough. Especially since the TOD conclusion fits several other points of circumstantial evidence. And if you want to allude that Kercher may have been a semi lush, that's fine, but I hardly find it relevant.

 

[Samson]

He is trying to infer that Lalli is a dip stick. I have better proof that he could use. Lalli forgot to weigh the body! One of the first things you do at an autopsy.

None the less video evidence (not publicly available) that he properly segregated the digestive system is proof beyond doubt that he did do this correctly and so we can trust the digestive data.

The alcohol from what I recall is perhaps worth someone taking the time to go back and revisit (I wont do this because I simply don't have time) From memory I seem to recall that one "expert" found an excessive BAC which indicated something near a lethal level of BAC but a retest was done and a tiny level of alcohol was revealed and the conclusion was improper storage of the test sample IIRC. I'm pretty sure the high BAC was wrong since MK was able to walk home according to the evidence. Now did the Britt pals lie about having wine with supper? Going by their one sided dishonest testimony I would lean towards yes...yes they did lie...errr forget about that fact. Or the tiny level could be from the drunken excess the night before...it hardly matters since no conclusion can be made about it.

Grinder want us to think that MK may have entertained or imbibed after leaving SP. Sure OK...did the police find the empties? Was alcohol available at the cottage? All plain and simple and easily determined data. Just ask the police what they discovered. There should be no guess work necessary. If there is then no conclusion can be made from the missing data IMO. Just WAG's that are pointless.

What do these English friends believe now? Or do they all toe the party line of guilty beyond doubt along with most of the family of their friend? Is there any statement or interview attempted? Maybe CoulsdonUK can throw light on this, as I see it relevant to the eventual humanising of A+R, and certainly not off topic while this trial grinds to a conclusion.

 

[RandyN]

Heya RandyN,
Click on that link in my above post of A Few Songs to Get Low,
a song that Guede was apparently listening to when Meredith came home, some of those lyrics, well...

"Let me see you get low, you scared you, scared you,
drop dat ^^^ to the floor, you scared you, scared you"...

There's a few versions of it, PG and R-rated,
Which do ya think Guede was listenin' to?
A 20 something year old dude is listenin' to the hardcore version!

Here's another version of what someone recently posted was the best "rap" track EVER!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl6ew6ftTYM

Esh, read some of the comments from this version, posted on YouTube back in Dec. of 2007.
Heck lil' 8th grade girlz are dancin' to this song! Yikes!

Thanks Randy...I already did that...thought I was at a classical music concert or something;-)

 

[RandyN]

What do these English friends believe now? Or do they all toe the party line of guilty beyond doubt along with most of the family of their friend? Is there any statement or interview attempted? Maybe CoulsdonUK can throw light on this, as I see it relevant to the eventual humanising of A+R, and certainly not off topic while this trial grinds to a conclusion.

Good question...I think the Brit tabs should hunt them all down...no stalk and hunt and harass them down to find out first what Mignini told them during his secret meeting with them all. Then dig into why they have such strong opinion about condoms and toy bunnies.

We touched on that somewhere last night (not here)...something about superior British behavior. My conclusion was that I was confident that the British bowl movement stinks same as everyone else... no matter their opinion of it.

 

[acbytesla]

Good points. It's even worse than I described. In most countries aren't damages limited to financial renumeration and no jail time? The idea of serving jail time for something you said is really bewildering to me.

I guess the concept of "sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me" really stuck with me as a kid. I assume they don't buy this in Italy.

Apparently not.

Most Western countries, defamation is a civil offense. That means a private party must sue you. The state has nothing to do with it. The plaintiff will be awarded damages and those are reasonable. Italy has had these "honor laws" that have their roots in the Mussolini era.

Article 19 an International Organization committed to the right of freedom of expression has been petitioning Italy to decriminalize and reduce fines for defamation for a long time.

Unfortunately, these laws create a cottage industry in Italy so many lawyers and prosecutors are fighting decriminalization. Recently their Senate drafted some a bill that proposed some reforms, while a step in the right direction do not go far enough.

http://www.article19.org/resources..../italy:-urgent-need-to-reform-defamation-laws

 

[Annella]

Great and why are they asking the partner and NOT the owner of the computer about it? Stupid Italians.

And if there is no record in Milan of this computer then what does Milan say they did with it? They have to say one of two things. We sent it to Perugia via ??? Or we requested Guede to return it.

You want your link above to explain the computer away but Massei provides nothing but more questions about it. Perhaps they have more data at TJMK. This seems like something The Machine could easily track down.

Or does TJMK... like Italy, want us to simply ignore this "missing" computer? What does Pete say about the ladies gold watch and the stolen knife found on Guede? Anything? No? I didn't think so.

Ummm... Im on your side Randy. Brocchi never got the computer back. Guede did not return computer when he visited the office. He did not have it. It was in Police hands. Another computer's info MIA.