Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dan O.]

Endogenous ethanol 'auto-brewery syndrome'

 

[Grinder]

I'm saying that Grinder's, er, proposal that it was "strange" that she still had food in her stomach when she was killed, 3 or so hours after she'd eaten, is what's moot.

What I intended to say was that it was strange that nothing had moved to the duodenum by 9. Most literature seems to say that food begins to move to the duodenum withing 2 hours.

Could you point me to my saying that it was strange she still had food in her stomach 3 or so hours later.

No thanks in advance if you don't produce.

ETA - Here you go.

Originally Posted by Grinder
Lalli made a mistake and didn't tie off the intestines properly. It really is an issue since the digestion should have started by 8 or 8:30..........

Supernaut - Her last meal was still in her stomach, some of the ingredients still indentifiable, probably in its entirety (it contained 0.5 litres, nearly a pint), so this is completely moot.

Digestion should have started by 8 or 8:30 NOT her stomach should have been empty.

 

[Grinder]

A fascinating area of research is the metabolising of alcohol by members of various, er, ethnicities.

(I could have said "races", but that would be "racist")

The rate at which alcohol is metabolized is the same for virtually everyone regardless of their height, weight, sex, race or other such characteristics.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

The issue of the Kercher's BAC has popped up a few times since I've been following this thread.

Could somebody explain what the significance of it is?

Her friends said they did not drink any alcohol that evening when they had dinner and watched a movie. But a blood test showed a trace reading of alcohol, so marginal it could have been from a disinfectant swab used on a piece of lab equipment, or anything. Or possibly she stopped somewhere and had a glass of wine before she met her friends. It is an insignificant finding IMO.

But then they did another test with stored blood samples that indicated she was massively drunk at the time she was killed, and the media picked that up. That was clearly an error caused by fermentation or a preservative.

 

[Grinder]

Her friends said they did not drink any alcohol that evening when they had dinner and watched a movie. But a blood test showed a trace reading of alcohol, so marginal it could have been from a disinfectant swab used on a piece of lab equipment, or anything. Or possibly she stopped somewhere and had a glass of wine before she met her friends. It is an insignificant finding IMO.

But then they did another test with stored blood samples that indicated she was massively drunk at the time she was killed, and the media picked that up. That was clearly an error caused by fermentation or a preservative.

Sorry Charlie but that's just not true. The tests Lalli ran and a confirming test run by another lab on the liver both came out with (from memory) .43 g/l.

The massively drunk test was done along side the verified one and the PLE said they put it in a container that had alcohol in it IIRC.

I think what she did the last 24 hours of her life should be well examined and could have importance.



Quick find

He then went on to detail the outcome of the alcohol level test. He recalled that the level of alcohol found in Perugia at the Institute of Forensic Medicine was 0.43 grams per litre; the [level] that had been [152] detected in the blood, however, at the headquarters of the expert report commissioned for the pre-trial hearing [incidente probatorio] was 2.72 grams per litre. On the basis of such contrasting results, a check was carried out on the alcohol percentage in other regions: in the gastric content and then in the liver. A value substantially of zero had been found in the gastric content and, he stressed, ‚in the gastric content the quantity of alcohol is frighteningly greater than in the blood‛ (page 106). In the liver too a very slight quantity had been detected, equal to 0.2, which was comparable from the pharmacokinetic point of view with the 0.43 verified by Dr. Lalli at the Institute of Forensic Medicine

​

 

[Supernaut]

The rate at which alcohol is metabolized is the same for virtually everyone regardless of their height, weight, sex, race or other such characteristics.

Are we having fun yet?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH)

I agree that the alcohol finding may be important, but I still say that the results from her bladder or from her vitreous humor would be very helpful in discriminating against the possibility of post-mortem alcohol production. It would also be nice to how exactly how her blood was sampled. The reason why it is often said that the rate of alcohol disposal is constant is that it essentially is, in the range when you are over-the-limit as far as driving is concerned. However, the saturation effect I mentioned before is real. "Because the class I ADH enzymes have a low Km (2 to 5 mg/dL) for ethanol, they become saturated with substrate after one or two drinks....When the BAC decreases below about 10 mg/dL the ADH enzymes are no longer saturated, and the curve changes to a curvilinear appearance." p. 360, Karch, Drug Abuse Handbook. I have not yet found anything on the subject of how the alcohol level might affect digestion.

 

[andreajo]

My apologies. I was just having fun with the bananas remark. I know that sometimes no allowance is given here.

I do see a problem with the duodenum as there should have been something there by 8:30. I don't understand why Introna Raf's expert would have made the case that it would highly unusual for nothing to be by 9:30 latest and they had there alibi.

No worries. My earnestness is often mistaken for going bananas.

The digestion does seem to be slower than the normal expectation, even with an early TOD.

 

[kwill]

evidence?

Originally Posted by massei (pg 103)
From a brief external inspection, he noted diffuse blood staining on the face and the presence of some wounds on the neck. The main wound was located at the level of the left side of the neck; from this wound issued "what is called a mushroom" of air mixed with blood (page 11). The same "mushroom" issued from the mouth and nostrils.
Originally Posted by massei (pg 148)
He confirmed that the time of death, on the basis of the elements available, should be indicated as having occurred from twenty to thirty hours before 12:50 am on November 3, 2007; thus between 20:50 pm on November 1 and 04:50 am on November 2. He did not remember whether traces of mushrooms had been found.
Originally Posted by massei (pg 162)
Professor Torre also spoke of asphyxia, attributing it to the cause of death and
stressing the presence of so-called ‚mushroom-shaped mucus‛ which could be seen protruding and coming out of the major wound, and which is symptomatic of death by asphyxia, as well as the occurrence of an invasion of the airways by liquid, in this case by blood.

Now I'm really confused. Also from Massei:
MASSEI REPORT PAGE 139:

With respect to the piece of mushroom mentioned in the consulting report of Dr. Lalli, he advanced two hypotheses. One was that upon arriving home, the victim had already completely digested the pizza and ate something else with mushrooms; this hypothesis is, however, not acceptable because there was only a single mushroom and also because of the fact that pieces of apple could be distinguished in the stomach contents, indicating that they came from the victim's first meal. The second hypothesis was that in the pizza, there was also a mushroom.

And this pg 119:

With regard to a piece of mushroom near the pre-cardio region that Dr. Lalli had spoken about, he said that this could not have been consumed during the afternoon/evening meal because it was in a different digestive state; therefore, he believed that some other food must have been eaten after the meal which, according to statements made by the British friends of Meredith, occurred between 6 pm and 8 pm and did not include mushrooms.

So . . . are we talking about mushroom-shaped mucus, or about an actual piece of a single mushroom?

 

[Dan O.]

Now I'm really confused. Also from Massei:
MASSEI REPORT PAGE 139:

And this pg 119:

So . . . are we talking about mushroom-shaped mucus, or about an actual piece of a single mushroom?

That is indeed the question. It would be useful to see the actual autopsy report instead of some layman's interpretation of what they thought they read or heard in the testimony.

My suggestion would be to gather all the references to this mushroom and build a reference page on the wiki. For each of those references, try to find where the original source came from. It might then be possible to filter out the noise and see where the truth lies.

ETA: Without the autopsy report, the second best source would be the transcript of Lalli's testimony.

QUESTION - I wanted to ask you this : have been found
mushrooms , bits of fungus?
REPLY - Ah yes, in the sense that the opening of the section
lower esophagus , which is the anatomical structure that connects the cable pharyngeal , mouth, stomach , was found a , a small piece of undigested mushroom , then certainly not at a stage digestion.

...

QUESTION - Okay . She seems to me that before he had spoken to a
mushroom undigested .
ANSWER - Yes, in my memory was there, and it should be in ,
in , in ... In the second half then , that you see in the shot made ​​by the Scientific Police , or a photograph of the Scientific Police do not remember honestly .
QUESTION - In a photograph of what?
RESPONSE - the autopsy , made ​​during the autopsy , yes.
QUESTION - But I wanted to understand , but if you do not remember well, I wanted to understand if fungus undigested mean , like, in a phase of digestion different from the rest of the lobe that described before.
ANSWER - Well , it was ... also the point of the importance that was ( just ) but not inside the stomach before the stomach , the fact that in any case the apprezzabilità was different than the rest of the food bolus .
QUESTION - So what can this mean ?
ANSWER - It could ...
QUESTION - What was hired later ?
ANSWER - It could mean that it may have been
******hired ...
APPLICATION - the rest of the meal ?
ANSWER - Yes , it could mean that.
QUESTION - Okay .
INTERVENTION - off microphone.

 

[yimyammer]

IIRC he said that it wouldn't be a crime that would require arrest and detainment. But it could be that you recounting is better.

doubtful, what you said sounds like the correct version of Mach's statement, but I'm sure he'll chime in and correct us if we're incorrect

 

[yimyammer]

Pretty sure the cops kept it.

regardless, my point was that he no longer had a laptop (unless he obtained another one subsequent to returning the lawyers) and would therefore still have an incentive to steal Filomena's (not withstanding being distracted by other events that took place and distracted him from completing the task)

 

[acbytesla]

regardless, my point was that he no longer had a laptop (unless he obtained another one subsequent to returning the lawyers) and would therefore still have an incentive to steal Filomena's (not withstanding being distracted by other events that took place and distracted him from completing the task)

I think it is pretty safe to say that laptops would have been stolen if Rudy hadn't killed Meredith. One of the major reasons that the cops on the scene came to the conclusion that "this wasn't a burglary" was because few valuables were taken. But those other distracting events were clearly a significant reason that Rudy didn't take these valuables that might link him to Meredith's murder.

Imagine Rudy being caught with Filomena's laptop or a digital camera from one of the girls. I think that is why he dumped the phones.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Sorry Charlie but that's just not true. The tests Lalli ran and a confirming test run by another lab on the liver both came out with (from memory) .43 g/l.

The massively drunk test was done along side the verified one and the PLE said they put it in a container that had alcohol in it IIRC.

I think what she did the last 24 hours of her life should be well examined and could have importance.



Quick find

He then went on to detail the outcome of the alcohol level test. He recalled that the level of alcohol found in Perugia at the Institute of Forensic Medicine was 0.43 grams per litre; the [level] that had been [152] detected in the blood, however, at the headquarters of the expert report commissioned for the pre-trial hearing [incidente probatorio] was 2.72 grams per litre. On the basis of such contrasting results, a check was carried out on the alcohol percentage in other regions: in the gastric content and then in the liver. A value substantially of zero had been found in the gastric content and, he stressed, ‚in the gastric content the quantity of alcohol is frighteningly greater than in the blood‛ (page 106). In the liver too a very slight quantity had been detected, equal to 0.2, which was comparable from the pharmacokinetic point of view with the 0.43 verified by Dr. Lalli at the Institute of Forensic Medicine

​

I don't really understand this subject. What I do know is that post-mortem blood tests aren't that precise and the results are sometimes misleading. I have seen this often in reading about criminal investigations. Blood is no longer circulating or being purified, so it begins to separate and break down and it produces various chemicals.

There is no other testimony or evidence she was drinking at all on the night she was killed. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that she may have had a drink, but I wouldn't assume this test proves for sure that she did, or that she was extremely intoxicated the night before.

 

[NancyS]

As you can see it would take around a .25 at 5 am to still have a full equivalent at 9 pm.

0.20 Loss of motor control; must have assistance standing or walking; mental confusion; needs medical assistance.

0.30 and higher Severe intoxication; potential loss of consciousness; needs hospitalization.

That sounds like your typical student night out in the UK. A&E on a Friday and Saturday night is full of young students that have lost consciousness - but most of the bordeines go home, pass out and stumble around the next day with alcohol in their system. I wouldn't be surprised of they were still doing shots at the end of the night - it is usually keep going until someone is sick or passes out

 

[yimyammer]

I'm not sure the 10:13 call says anything. I use to be convinced that it means that phone had to be in Rudy's possession. I do think the 9:58 and 10:00 calls are clues to that however. What do we know about the 10:13 call? It was from a somewhat more distant Wind tower. Which tells me the line of sight to the close Lupatelli tower was obstructed somehow while line of sight to the Wind tower was not obstructed. But this could have happened in many ways. For example Rudy could have escaped along the outside walls of the city directly below the Lupatelli tower where the line of sight to that tower would have been obstructed. There is also a ridge line to the Northwest of the cottage that could have caused problems. Then of course there is the cottage wall of the bedroom. I don't know what they are made of and how they might effect transmission.

Any one going on just this amount or lack of detail who can say what that means is simply spitballing. I've wanted to see the cellular reports, but I can't even find them in Italian.

According to Rudy it was in the middle. And while I think he is not credible, I have a tendency to believe this, because I can't imagine a reason to lie about this detail.

I think it was more like 9:10 at the latest. I'm convinced the Rudy was sitting on the toilet when Meredith came home. The only question I have is how long did Rudy wait in that bathroom before he came out. I can't imagine he waited on the toilet for more than 10 minutes or so...(this probably would have felt like an eternity to Rudy) The not calling home or not taking off her jacket or not taking the clothes out of the washer certainly doesn't prove anything, but they are clues that definitely lead to thinking it was early in the 9 o'clock hour.

I've wondered if Rudy actually tried to leave without Meredith noticing (which would be consistent to his passive activity reported in the other break-ins that were reported) but when he got to the front door and realized he was locked in he was subsequently discovered by Meredith and its at that point she screams. He reacts like a trapped dog and tries to silence her, things escalate from there, he realizes she knows him, and he resorts to violence in the heat of the moment.

Perhaps the sexual part was following the attack but he didn't have the stomach for it given the condition she was in thus all we have is the small amount of DNA found in her Vagina.

I know, more useless speculation...

 

[yimyammer]

It's one thing to be sued by another party, it is totally another to have criminal charges directed at you. Italy has effectively put it's judges and police above criticism and above the law. I have no problem with civil laws against defamation of character, but the burden of proof needs to be with the plaintiff and the plaintiff needs to demonstrate actual damages, not just that their feelings were hurt.

Another good thing we have in the US is exceptions for public figures. That the defamation must show actual malice. Being wrong alone does not constitute actual defamation.

Unfortunately Italy is one of these countries that has "criminalized" defamation, where the penalties are up to three years for each offense.

Good points. It's even worse than I described. In most countries aren't damages limited to financial renumeration and no jail time? The idea of serving jail time for something you said is really bewildering to me.

I guess the concept of "sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me" really stuck with me as a kid. I assume they don't buy this in Italy.

 

[yimyammer]

Thanks. Those doors look like they are above the surface of the balcony. It appears they aren't doors but something like a step through window.

Perhaps Mach good fill us in on how they work. A strange design to block out light going into the hallway from the outside. I could see a shade on the inside for privacy but on the outside seems odd. Do the doors open inward and then the shutter doors need to be opened?

I've built houses for the last 20+ years (albeit in the US) and I'd be real surprised if those weren't a pair of doors but who knows since every country has unique construction details.

PS.. regardless of what they are, they were covered by shutters (I assume at that time). Were these not what you were referring to in your post?

 

[LondonJohn]

I don't really understand this subject. What I do know is that post-mortem blood tests aren't that precise and the results are sometimes misleading. I have seen this often in reading about criminal investigations. Blood is no longer circulating or being purified, so it begins to separate and break down and it produces various chemicals.

There is no other testimony or evidence she was drinking at all on the night she was killed. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that she may have had a drink, but I wouldn't assume this test proves for sure that she did, or that she was extremely intoxicated the night before.

You're correct in your assertion that post-mortem blood alcohol measurement is fraught with inaccuracies. As you say, it's mainly due to two factors: firstly, blood is static and pooling within the body and is no longer being oxygenated, so it is degenerating and decomposing in a different ways in different parts of the body; and secondly, when blood decomposes, blood glucose converts into acetaldehyde and then alcohol. This decomposition can start within several hours of death; Meredith's autopsy was not performed until at least 30 hours after her death.

Here's a link to an abstract that addresses the problems of inaccuracy in post-mortem BAC readings:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC500652/

And here's a much more detailed paper on the subject:

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/36390/Measured_alcohol_lev.pdf

 

[yimyammer]

Well yes sure...even though for the simplest of minds this is easily explained and then logically written off as a translation error of Filomena.

Filomena had poor English skills. Laura was better...but she was not present. Filomena is also an emotional flake, not smart enough to take charge in Italy and with full command of the Italian language. Instead, she orders Amanda to call police knowing perfectly well that Amanda's language skills are just not up to that task at that point.

I'm guessing here but very early in the discovery of the body Filomena had to call her lawyer since he did show up at the crime scene while they were all standing outside. (Filomena with her hand stuck firmly inside the rear jean pocket of her BF...which is in a pic...funny how the press missed that since it seems so much more "dirty" than a comforting brief kiss between AK and RS?)

That's an interesting point, it would be funny to see one of you clever people present a case as to why Filomena should be a suspect.

How did she know Meredith kept her door unlocked? Was she regularly entering her room and siphoning off cash, etc? She got Amanda to sound the alert to the police in order to get possibly get her to discover the crime scene giving her cover? Her alibi is only substantiated by her boyfriend. Why did she lawyer up so fast? etc, etc...

I'm obviously being facetious