Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RandyN]

Do you have a source for this claim like Grinder provided?

Really? Where in Grinders "source" does it say Guede did not return the computer? Can you read? Don't be distracted by the Germany BS...that is not a part of my contention. Does Grinders "source" say Guede left the office with the computer? Perhaps I cant read...I am a little out of it.

 

[Mary_H]

yes, I find it fascinating that someone can see something that seems clear as day to me and continue to proclaim with certainty the polar opposite.

It's mind boggling to me, especially coming from people that I don't think are stupid, quite the opposite actually. I think some highly intelligent people can't fathom ever being wrong and perhaps their self worth is so tied to being right and superior that to admit a mistake would be too big of a hit to their ego.

I know how you feel yimyammer; it really is hard to make sense of. I compare the phenomenon to Tea Party ideologues. If you were to do years of research and the resulting statistics proved that social programs made the crime rate go down, they would still say they are against social programs. They would still say reality must sync up with their beliefs, not the other way around. Similarly, you can get guilters to go only so far with every argument before they walk away.

Mach is to be admired for his persistence, but he avoids answering any question that puts him on the spot, either by ignoring it or going away for few days and then coming back when the subject has changed.

 

[davefoc]

Wrong... unless you understand some new law of motion ...which would be HUGE!!! Then there is nothing to indicate any reason for ANY glass to be outside at all. A rock from outside would cause the glass to go along in the same direction of the rock which as a reminder would be towards the inside. It may be possible that some glass rebounded outside but that is far from proven and also far from certain. So it would not be outside either way...but if you have a new law of motion then lets get it out and published because this would be huge...

I thought you might be a bit wrong about this. I imagined that some of the glass might not be quite broken as the projectile passed through the glass and the glass might spring back flicking bits of glass backwards.

I tried to verify my theory by looking at on-line video of glass broken by a projectile:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHk_69C90rU
http://www.videoblocks.com/videos/details/slow-motion-destroying-sheet-of-glass/
http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/33704-time-warp-regular-glass-break-video.htm (with mandatory ad)

The results weren't definitive but I thought I saw broken glass ejected towards the direction of the projectile in the first.

I did find this:

When a glass object breaks, fragments can be ejected from the object in all directions (Pounds and Smalldon 1978), including backward toward the direction of the breaking force (Nelson and Revell 1967).

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/for...ns/fsc/april2009/review/2009_04_review01.htm/

 

[Poppy1016]

I wonder if Mach will ever reveal his 'moral' convictions' on this case, or if he will continue to peruse the side issues in order to maintain confusion and inhibit focus on the realities being presented.
Mach, to me, strikes me as someone who operates outside of any moral framework, but is only interested in the 'intellectual' challenge of an argument. An empty vessel indeed, no matter whatever I.Q. may be involved.
Mach, ultimately you have to declare your moral convictions and so far, i see nothing but sophistry. An empty vessel, indeed. Nothing but hot air ......

I have also thought that Mach just likes the challenge of a debate. He doesn't care about honesty, only about winning the debate by any means possible.

 

[kwill]

Mach is to be admired for his persistence, but he avoids answering any question that puts him on the spot, either by ignoring it or going away for few days and then coming back when the subject has changed.

Well then, the burden is on us to keep asking the same questions until somebody decides to answer it. Here are my questions.

1. Why the meal Meredith ate between 6 and 6:30 pm had not even started to move into her small intestine if she was still alive at 11:30 pm? That process should have been completed during those 5 - 5.5 hours, but it hadn't even begun.

2. Why Meredith would not try to call home ever again after her first attempt failed at 8:56 pm?

These questions are based on a pair of undisputed facts that point toward a time of death for Meredith that falls between 9 and 9:30 pm. No meal in her duodendum at autopsy. No cell phone activity for an hour, and what there was made no sense.

How do those who think A & R were involved in her murder account for those facts? After six years of devoted and intense analysis, is ought to be simple to answer these questions.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm getting 4G from a tower that is at least 5 miles away.

The towers I connect to are all about a mile or two away. They turn the power up if they aren't servicing a large population and distance is more important. But in a densely populated area, they don't want the signal to travel too far. That way the can put up more cell antennas and not have the frequencies interfere with each other. NYC has mini cell sites all over the place. Where as your service is provided by a giant tower.

I go by the fact that the Lupatelli tower handled every call known to have been made or received at the cottage, as detailed in Massei's report. I regard it as strong but not conclusive evidence the phone was in a different location at 10:13 pm.

I did too. I think it is very strange as well.

Still, that said, the sample of calls listed in Massei simply is not large enough to make a definitive determination. Massei is only listing the calls from October 31st on. I want to see the list of towers connected to for at least a few weeks. A couple of months would be better still. I cataloged this before and there was about 25 calls made from the cottage or around the cottage in those days and they all used the very close Lupatelli tower. What I don't know is how many of those calls took place from Meredith's bedroom.

 

[davefoc]

... [post above discussing cell phone tower connections]

How are you guys figuring out what tower you are connected to?

 

[acbytesla]

How are you guys figuring out what tower you are connected to?

There are cell tower maps available that you can Google. There are also smartphone apps which will tell you.

My business use to be selling datacom. So I am always looking for cell and microwave repeating antennas. They have gotten much smaller and more camouflaged these days. Still, they are fairly easy to spot if you know what to look for.

Here are the towers we are talking about near the cottage. The Piazza Lupatelli Tower. which is 171 meters from the cottage and Wind cell tower 30064 which is 1720 meters from the cottage. The wind cell tower handled the 10:13 call made by Meredith's phone.

 

[Samson]

smh......if the things I find illogical that PGP people believe are true, it would really shake my confidence in whatever reasoning and logic skills I have. Many of their arguments are so foreign to the way I think, it makes my head hurt and I don't say that to disparage PGP folks, I'm just acknowledging I don't see things the way they do.

How completely polarized the two sides are is actually one of the fascinating parts of the case.

I watched the documentary on the Egyptian air crash today with aviation afficionados, that Charlie cites as a parallel, and he is correct. That case is open and shut, mass murder suicide. This case has the same degree of certainty, yet if I go to Tjmk or PMF sites right now I will be flabbergasted again. I expect, as someone else has suggested, a mini industry to unravel all this will emerge, yet we are still on the scenic route to the destination.

 

[RWVBWL]

Nice find!

The keys to the apartment downstairs were found hanging in the entrance hall upstairs on November 6th. This is mentioned in inspector Mauro Barbadori's testimony.

ANSWER - Yes, there was a diary, a camera, a
computer. The only thing , here , now comes to my mind ,
entrance into the hall we found the keys
the apartment downstairs .

PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Where in particular?

ANSWER - If I'm not mistaken on the left as you enter ,
were attached .

QUESTION - Attach to the wall?

ANSWER - Yes, I think so , there in the hall, were in
availability of all in substance.
​

ETA: And to think that the keys were right there when that police woman made a fool of herself kicking in the glass on the downstairs door.

A coupla shots of whiskey and Coke on a chilly December Friday night in L.A.
and I feel like rambling for a few minutes, so read on if ya want...

Good find Dan O!
I remember a few years ago we discussed the key rack, and whether Meredith watered Giacomo's plants that afternoon, all because I had wrote a post that I'd read so in Barbie Nadeau's Angel Face book.

Reading in Barbie Nadeau's book "Angel Face" on page 13 it says:
"The house was L-shaped, with a covered portico at the front that opened into a tiny foyer where the girls hung keys, parked umbrellas, and kept a bulletin board with messages to each other." Etc...

If so, did Meredith also hang her keys there too?

After reading what Supernaut recently posted,
that he believed Meredith would have locked her bedroom door as she left that afternoon, because she had her rent $$$ in her room, ya know, what with Meredith supposedly believing that Amanda was a "drugged up tart", I think Guede supposedly said, well I've wondered if when Meredith got back home after parting with Sophie, might she have had to unlock her own bedroom door and then just left her keys in the lock as she started to get settled in?

It'd be a pretty easy way for Guede to then re-lock Meredith's bedroom door as he left. I'd always thought it odd that he would not just close Meredith's door and leave, instead he would have to find+fumble around with her keys, get the right key, lock it and then find the right front door key so he could exit the place.

If so, Amanda never ripped off Meredith's rent $$$,
her door was locked...


So that where Giacomo's keys were.
Hiding there in plain sight, hahaha...

Interesting.
Makes me wonder who messed up Stefano's bed when he was gone?
Meredith supposedly watered the pot plants earlier that afternoon,
although I've never been able to find any other published satements agreeing this:

Page 36 of "Angel Face" says that on the last afternoon of her life, Meredith
"then went downstairs to water the pot. When she finished, she sent Giacomo a flirty text message saying how excited she was to see him when he got back."

Heya Grinder,
On the last afternoon of her life,
Meredith texted she was excited to see Giacomo!
Do ya still think she was on a 1st date with Rudy Guede?

 

[RWVBWL]

Didn't Prosecutor Manuela Comodi have to go to court yesterday?
Any word?

Gosh,
where's Perugia Shock when you need it?!?

 

[Samson]

Didn't Prosecutor Manuela Comodi have to go to court yesterday?
Any word?

Gosh,
where's Perugia Shock when you need it?!?

exonerated Italian style.

http://thefreelancedesk.com/front_featured/amanda-knox-appeal-2/

 

[Antony]

http://www.amandaknox.com/blog/

It's worth checking out the links she posted. Forti is the innocent victim of a screwed up justice system that considers speculation and fantasy to be as good as evidence.

And that is a subject Amanda Knox understands.

It's not confined to Italy. Miscarriages of justice in the US and the UK frequently result from police speculation being treated as fact by courts.

The way to tell is when press reports state the verdict as bald fact, but describe "evidence" that leaves you nodding if you're already convinced of guilt, but otherwise thinking "is that all they've got?"

A case in point was the conviction of Winston Silcott for the 1986 murder of the policeman Keith Blakelock. Reports afterwards only focussed on Silcott's reaction when questioned by police and told there was testimony against him. He allegedly said (of other youths also arrested and implicating him), "You ain't got no evidence. You can't keep me away from them." (Silcott disputes the words used.)

This was taken to imply that he was a dangerous man who would threaten witnesses, and would be damning if there had been proper evidence that he was the killer. But there wasn't - even the testimony of the other youths was never used in court.

 

[Antony]

Actually it's quite the contrary; the perception that the break in was staged preceeded all narrative about the crime. Actually it even preceeded the discovery of the body. Battistelli and Marzi suspected it was staged even before they discovered the murder.

Nobody ever seriously considered that the break could be an authentic one, it just doesn't look so, and nobody ever will.

Yes, that's the problem. Nobody in the police and prosecution camp ever seriously considered that the break-in could be authentic. How do you evaluate the likelihood of something when you never think about it in a serious way? Wouldn't you think that the fact that peoples' futures are at stake would obligate people with power to consider all the possibilities in a serious way?

A good answer. Machiavelli is arguing that the break-in did not need to be investigated, simply because the police immediately judged it to be faked. So the PGP "evidence" of a staged break-in consists solely of the fact that the police made no investigation of it.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

How are you guys figuring out what tower you are connected to?

I'm going through the only VZW tower that serves me, near Limestone Point on the north end of San Juan Island.

 

[Antony]

Corroborating evidence for that is that she never took off her jacket and never got her wet clothes out of the washing machine.

Can someone clarify for me the detail about the clothes in the washer? What is the evidence that Meredith loaded the machine before going out to meet her friends, so that the cycle would have been complete at the time she got home?

If I were PGP, I would explain this plausibly by saying that Meredith could have loaded the machine after coming home, so that it was running at the time of the murder, and it doesn't indicate that she had a task left unattended when she was killed.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

It's not confined to Italy. Miscarriages of justice in the US and the UK frequently result from police speculation being treated as fact by courts.

The way to tell is when press reports state the verdict as bald fact, but describe "evidence" that leaves you nodding if you're already convinced of guilt, but otherwise thinking "is that all they've got?"

A case in point was the conviction of Winston Silcott for the 1986 murder of the policeman Keith Blakelock. Reports afterwards only focussed on Silcott's reaction when questioned by police and told there was testimony against him. He allegedly said (of other youths also arrested and implicating him), "You ain't got no evidence. You can't keep me away from them." (Silcott disputes the words used.)

This was taken to imply that he was a dangerous man who would threaten witnesses, and would be damning if there had been proper evidence that he was the killer. But there wasn't - even the testimony of the other youths was never used in court.

It is disturbing to find out how many cases there are like this, and even more disturbing that a large segment of the public blindly supports whatever the authorities say or do. The police zero in on a particular suspect and go all out to make a case against that person, and they find some way to dismiss or rationalize anything that gets in the way of their belief.

Amanda has some good links on her blog. She is really taking a look at this problem, and she ain't a 20 year old kid any more. She is one smart, capable woman. She has the potential to make an impact.

One of her links is a segment of This American Life that talks about Jeffrey Womack and the Marcia Trimble murder in Nashville. That led me to a new book, in which Womack has collaborated with a writer to tell his story. It is called The Suspect: A Memoir. The murder took place in 1975. They finally got the killer through a cold-case DNA match in 2007. In the interim, they made Womack's life a living hell with no evidence whatsoever, purely a theory arising from the fact that he saw the victim shortly before she disappeared. He lawyered up right away, or he'd have been railroaded for sure. The book is available as a Kindle download for the price of a Big Mac, and it's a fascinating read.

 

[Samson]

It is disturbing to find out how many cases there are like this, and even more disturbing that a large segment of the public blindly supports whatever the authorities say or do. The police zero in on a particular suspect and go all out to make a case against that person, and they find some way to dismiss or rationalize anything that gets in the way of their belief.

Amanda has some good links on her blog. She is really taking a look at this problem, and she ain't a 20 year old kid any more. She is one smart, capable woman. She has the potential to make an impact.

One of her links is a segment of This American Life that talks about Jeffrey Womack and the Marcia Trimble murder in Nashville. That led me to a new book, in which Womack has collaborated with a writer to tell his story. It is called The Suspect: A Memoir. The murder took place in 1975. They finally got the killer through a cold-case DNA match in 2007. In the interim, they made Womack's life a living hell with no evidence whatsoever, purely a theory arising from the fact that he saw the victim shortly before she disappeared. He lawyered up right away, or he'd have been railroaded for sure. The book is available as a Kindle download for the price of a Big Mac, and it's a fascinating read.

It is well worth studying the unsolved New Zealand mystery, where Arthur Allan Thomas was convicted, jailed and pardoned for the murder of Harvey and Jeanette Crewe.
There are three close parallels to this case.
1. Poor circumstancial evidence of a motive of jealousy, he once dated the female victim.
2. He assisted the police suggesting with local farming knowledge where the bodies might logically be found (deep sixed in river).
3. A previously sieved garden revealed a bullet cartridge when the police were sure they had their man, but were just missing the vital forensic evidence. Inspector Hutton was found by the high court to have planted the cartridge, but he was not charged.
ETA
There are real plausible alternatives and suspects, murder suicide, father in law over land ownership dispute.

 

[MichaelB]

Can someone clarify for me the detail about the clothes in the washer? What is the evidence that Meredith loaded the machine before going out to meet her friends, so that the cycle would have been complete at the time she got home?

If I were PGP, I would explain this plausibly by saying that Meredith could have loaded the machine after coming home, so that it was running at the time of the murder, and it doesn't indicate that she had a task left unattended when she was killed.

Amanda's email

He came right after i started eating and
he made himself some pasta. as we were eating together meredith came
out of the shower and grabbed some laundry or put some laundry in, one
or the other and returned into her room after saying hi to raffael.

 

[MichaelB]

The keys to the apartment downstairs were found hanging in the entrance hall upstairs on November 6th. This is mentioned in inspector Mauro Barbadori's testimony.

ANSWER - Yes, there was a diary, a camera, a
computer. The only thing , here , now comes to my mind ,
entrance into the hall we found the keys
the apartment downstairs .

PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Where in particular?

ANSWER - If I'm not mistaken on the left as you enter ,
were attached .

QUESTION - Attach to the wall?

ANSWER - Yes, I think so , there in the hall, were in
availability of all in substance.
​

ETA: And to think that the keys were right there when that police woman made a fool of herself kicking in the glass on the downstairs door.

Thanks for this. I'd always thought the downstairs keys were missing as well.