Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[yimyammer]

My God...stop the presses. We agree on something.

I agree, it's silly to say that a burglar wouldn't break in through the balcony. But this burglar (Rudy) chose Filomena's window. It's like choosing one of 6 different ways to a buddy's home. You might choose one way one day and another the next.

credit for the photo goes to London John via this post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9676098&postcount=8872

 

[yimyammer]

In analysing this Micheli or Massei can't recall which started with the staged break in as fact, and eliminated Rudy, as they reasoned he would be suspected due to known previous form, therefore it was AK and RS who staged the break in, as they could have no knowledge of the previous. That is how PGP reason.

smh......if the things I find illogical that PGP people believe are true, it would really shake my confidence in whatever reasoning and logic skills I have. Many of their arguments are so foreign to the way I think, it makes my head hurt and I don't say that to disparage PGP folks, I'm just acknowledging I don't see things the way they do.

How completely polarized the two sides are is actually one of the fascinating parts of the case.

 

[kwill]

You are confused about the CCTV time. That's unedstandable since the prosecution has been telling lies about that time from the start.

Here is what we know:

• 20:55 Sophie Purton arrives home in Via del Lupo.
  Source Micheli Report. "On 17 November, P[urton] made a new prosecuting magistrate deposition...correcting the time that she was back in Via del Lupo, recalling that it was still 20:55".
• 20:56 Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately.
  "In evidence on Friday, Stefano Sisani, of the Perugia flying squad, revealed that a call to Kercher’s mother, Arline, in Coulsdon, Surrey, was made from her mobile at 8.56pm on the night of November 1. She used the phone daily to call her mother, who was ill. The call was cut off before she got through" (Times Online, March 22, 2009)
  Theory that call was cut off by attack is unlikely, as Meredith would still be near Sophie's flat at this time. More likely explanation is that call was dropped because of poor signal in tight medieval streets.
  Logged in phone memory - Massei Report pg 350
• 21:04 Sighting of figure thought to be Meredith on the car park CCTV camera, CCTV time adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defense's theory.
  The figure is walking from left to right on the same side of the street as the cottage. CCTV time stamp was said to be 20:43 in early news reports (when the figure was thought to be Amanda); later reports of 20:41 are possibly a confusion with Guede's sighting at 19:41. Fits with Sophie's arrival home at 55".
  20:55, and the interrupted call at 20:56. Telegraph 2007-11-12Daily Mail 2009-03-14
• 21:05 Kercher arrives at cottage
  Time approximate, based on walk since leaving Sophie. Also matches up with female figure seen walking towards cottage gate on car park video at 20:43. Prosecution claims clock is 10 minutes fast, see 13:34 on Nov. 2 for why it's probably 12 minutes slow. Video available on web is cropped and doesn't show camera timestamps. A still from the video has been discovered showing the timestamp of 20:51:36.17

This controversy all started because when police inspector Mauro Barbadori picked up the video he didn't check the camera time himself but was told that there was a 10 minute offset by the parking garage attendant. The prosecution said that the CCTV clock was 10 minutes fast and that the clear image was that of Amanda arriving at the cottage at 20:41. We know now that the image was just a white spec crossing the street and the time was instead 10 to 12 minutes slow.

Meredith's phone call was just a minute or two after leaving Sophie and about 10 minutes before she would cross the street in front of the camera.

Thank you so much. Accuracy is all. So it sounds like what happened is that Meredith got her phone out the moment she had privacy (after she and her friend parted) and tried to call her mom. The call didn't go through. She went into the cottage at 9:05 pm. No more attempts.

The meal she'd begun to eat sometime between 6 and 6:30 pm (according to her English friends) never began its journey into her small intestine. And that means Meredith didn't survive long once she entered the cottage.

Corroborating evidence for that is that she never took off her jacket and never got her wet clothes out of the washing machine.

Anybody who believes A & R were involved want to say when Meredith died and why they think so?

 

[Dan O.]

The one thing I wouldn't like is being cornered in the lower retaining wall area if someone where to come from around the corner of the lower flat.

Then you would like the fact that the only normal access to that lower yard is to come down the drive and circle all the way around the house. You can see/hear them on the drive then have plenty of time and multiple escape paths to choose.

 

[Strozzi]

Thank you so much. Accuracy is all. So it sounds like what happened is that Meredith got her phone out the moment she had privacy (after she and her friend parted) and tried to call her mom. The call didn't go through. She went into the cottage at 9:05 pm. No more attempts.

The meal she'd begun to eat sometime between 6 and 6:30 pm (according to her English friends) never began its journey into her small intestine. And that means Meredith didn't survive long once she entered the cottage.

Corroborating evidence for that is that she never took off her jacket and never got her wet clothes out of the washing machine.

Anybody who believes A & R were involved want to say when Meredith died and why they think so?

I do not believe A & R were involved, but I do want to add one more fact to the evidence that indicates Meredith was attacked early on upon entering her home. Please first bear in mind that she was feeding the downstairs guys' cat and watering her boyfriend's marijuana plants as they were out of town for the long holiday weekend. Don't know if she did that first upon arriving home at about 8:55 pm but if she did she might have first gone into her upstairs flat to grab the keys for downstairs, or had them with her and gone directly into their lower flat, for 5 minutes or so, or she could have skipped those chores and just entered her upstairs flat for the night at about 8:55 pm.

In either case, Rudy Guede stated that he heard a terrible scream as he killed her - erh, I mean as he grooved to the music on the toilet while "some other guy" killed her. He stated the scream was at about 9:20 pm, if I remember correctly. Many people maintain that although Rudy tells many lies, he may be telling the truth about the time of the scream as he may fear it was heard by others and can be verified. No need to lie about that one fact, especially if someone might have heard it and could catch Rudy lying with a false time.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Kaosium and Charlie seem to understand the digestion evidence very well.

I do feel that I have the expertise with the cell towers and unfortunately I haven't seen enough info to come to a solid conclusion. Dr. Pellero wrote a report for the defense, but I have never actually seen it translated. And that is beyond my scope.

The Lupatelli tower is 10 times closer than the the distant Strada Vincale tower that handled the 10:13 call. But honestly, that distant tower would still only be about a mile of Meredith's bedroom. The issues are line of sight and the how much the walls of her bedroom would effect transmission. There is no window pointing toward the close tower while there is a small window that does look across the valley toward the distant tower. But the window isn't in the best location for cell reception. Also, cell towers are tuned for power. A cell tower in the middle of Kansas might be powered for 10 even 15 miles, but a cell tower in downtown NYC is tuned for maybe a block or two. So without looking at the report I don't think anyone can give an accurate opinion.

I'm getting 4G from a tower that is at least 5 miles away.

I go by the fact that the Lupatelli tower handled every call known to have been made or received at the cottage, as detailed in Massei's report. I regard it as strong but not conclusive evidence the phone was in a different location at 10:13 pm.

 

[Bill Williams]

This coming 15th January Giuliano Mignini goes on trial in Turin, with the ex-commissioner of police Michele Giuttari, for a series of crimes among which one that sticks out is abuse of office during the inquest into the death of the Perugian doctor Francesco Narducci, linked to the Monster of Florence case. An inquest contained in a good 100 folders, lasting for years, with 22 people implicated among whom was a superintendant, a colonel in the police, several noted lawyers and the then arrested journalist Mario Spezi. They were all absolved by the Judge of First Instance and by the Supreme Court. For this investigation in 2010 Mignini and Giuttari at Florence were condemned to one year and four months and a year and six months imprisonment (respectively), then the Appeal Court annulled the conviction for reasons of territorial incompetence. Thus the trial was transferred to
Turin. Even Giuliano Mignini, when we asked him how he was going to defend himself, was a bit terse and cryptic: ‘ I have no comment to make. Talk to someone who knows the story’. We wanted to ask if he, a magistrate, would waive the limitation period provided for in the first months of 2014, but could not do so.

Just did not want this to get lost in the threads, as there may be someone denying they'd ever said that the Jan 15 hearing is a prelim, and not the trial itself.

 

[Dan O.]

The keys to the apartment downstairs were found hanging in the entrance hall upstairs on November 6th. This is mentioned in inspector Mauro Barbadori's testimony.

ANSWER - Yes, there was a diary, a camera, a
computer. The only thing , here , now comes to my mind ,
entrance into the hall we found the keys
the apartment downstairs .

PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Where in particular?

ANSWER - If I'm not mistaken on the left as you enter ,
were attached .

QUESTION - Attach to the wall?

ANSWER - Yes, I think so , there in the hall, were in
availability of all in substance.
​

ETA: And to think that the keys were right there when that police woman made a fool of herself kicking in the glass on the downstairs door.

 

[e740JPH]

The keys to the apartment downstairs were found hanging in the entrance hall upstairs on November 6th. This is mentioned in inspector Mauro Barbadori's testimony.

ANSWER - Yes, there was a diary, a camera, a
computer. The only thing , here , now comes to my mind ,
entrance into the hall we found the keys
the apartment downstairs .

PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Where in particular?

ANSWER - If I'm not mistaken on the left as you enter ,
were attached .

QUESTION - Attach to the wall?

ANSWER - Yes, I think so , there in the hall, were in
availability of all in substance.
​

ETA: And to think that the keys were right there when that police woman made a fool of herself kicking in the glass on the downstairs door.

And thus again - adrenaline - beats common sense - which appears to be the essence of this perversion.

 

[e740JPH]

I wonder if Mach will ever reveal his 'moral' convictions' on this case, or if he will continue to peruse the side issues in order to maintain confusion and inhibit focus on the realities being presented.

<SNIP>

Edited by LashL: 

Edited to remove breach of Rule 12.

 

[RandyN]

smh......if the things I find illogical that PGP people believe are true, it would really shake my confidence in whatever reasoning and logic skills I have. Many of their arguments are so foreign to the way I think, it makes my head hurt and I don't say that to disparage PGP folks, I'm just acknowledging I don't see things the way they do.

How completely polarized the two sides are is actually one of the fascinating parts of the case.

Yes but of the two sides, one is drawn to the facts, evidence and truth while the other is led or at least moderated by a self proclaimed God. They deny the facts, and fail to even attempt a time line showing guilt while fitting facts...because that is impossible!

Not fascinating at all unless you also happen to find the Big Foot people fascinating in contrast to those who think they are bonkers...then sure....fascinating.

 

[RandyN]

I do not believe A & R were involved, but I do want to add one more fact to the evidence that indicates Meredith was attacked early on upon entering her home. Please first bear in mind that she was feeding the downstairs guys' cat and watering her boyfriend's marijuana plants as they were out of town for the long holiday weekend. Don't know if she did that first upon arriving home at about 8:55 pm but if she did she might have first gone into her upstairs flat to grab the keys for downstairs, or had them with her and gone directly into their lower flat, for 5 minutes or so, or she could have skipped those chores and just entered her upstairs flat for the night at about 8:55 pm. In either case, Rudy Guede stated that he heard a terrible scream as he killed her - erh, I mean as he grooved to the music on the toilet while "some other guy" killed her. He stated the scream was at about 9:20 pm, if I remember correctly. Many people maintain that although Rudy tells many lies, he may be telling the truth about the time of the scream as he may fear it was heard by others and can be verified. No need to lie about that one fact, especially if someone might have heard it and could catch Rudy lying with a false time.

The evidence strongly indicates that MK was not near the cottage at 8:55 PM. She arrived there at a corrected time of 9:04 PM. A full 9 minutes later...which happens to be how longs it takes to walk from SP house to the cottage. She may have been downstairs first and even attacked there. The police started botching that crime scene when they decided to kick the door open. Apparently no one has the skills to pick a lock.

There is blood evidence down there that IS NOT cats blood and there is missing DNA data results from down there as well. The incompetance/corruption is spread far and wide...but these clowns are not and never were seeking the truth. They only sought a crazy idea designed inside the mind of a known mad man.

 

[e740JPH]

Randy
What's wrong with Bigfoot? So, he has a medical problem, let's not prejudge the poor guy! How is he ever going to get pedriatic care at a reasonable cost? Think BIG.

 

[RandyN]

Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
I've tried knocking. It doesn't always work. Some people just won't answer the door when they are home alone at night. But toss a big ole rock through a window works every time.
Have many friends?

Quote:
After Milan, Rudy is probably thinking that one of these days he is going to need the services of a lawyer. He returned the equipment stolen from the lawyer and apologized. When Rudy then did need their assistance, one traveled out of the country to meet him personally before the prosecutor got a chance to interview him in his own special way. Contrast this to Amanda and Raffaele being grilled all night and then tossed into solitary and not even seeing their lawyers until they were standing in front of the judge.

Have many friends?



No he didn't.
The witnesses Paolo Brocchi and Matteo Palazzoli, lawyers, testified on the subject of the burglary of their legal office, located in via del Roscetto 3, Perugia, on the night between Saturday October 13 and Sunday October 14, 2007. The thief or thieves had entered through a window whose panes had been smashed with a rather large stone; the glass was scattered around, and they had found some of their clothing on top of the glass (p. 10, hearing June 6, 2009). From the first inventory they did, they found that a computer, a cell phone, USB keys and a portable printer were missing. On October 29, a colleague in the law office had called the lawyer Paolo Brocchi to tell him that in the corridor was a person who said that he had been found with some goods in Milan, goods that had been declared stolen by the lawyer Brocchi, but which he claimed to have purchased legitimately in Milan. Later, the lawyer Paolo Brocchi recognised this person as Rudy Guede (p. 20, hearing of June 6, 2009).
The lawyer Palazzoli, who testified at the same hearing, and who was a colleague in the same law firm as Brocchi, declared that the broken window was "a French window opening onto a small balcony overlooking the inner courtyard of the building; beneath it, corresponding precisely to our window, there is a door equipped with a metal grille..." (p. 41, hearing of June 26, 2009). He also stated that he had been notified that the computer which had been stolen from him had been found in Milan.


Where did you get the idea these lawyers went to Germany?

Ahhh yes he did.

 

[Mary_H]

I wonder if Mach will ever reveal his 'moral' convictions' on this case, or if he will continue to peruse the side issues in order to maintain confusion and inhibit focus on the realities being presented.
Mach, to me, strikes me as someone who operates outside of any moral framework, but is only interested in the 'intellectual' challenge of an argument. An empty vessel indeed, no matter whatever I.Q. may be involved.
Mach, ultimately you have to declare your moral convictions and so far, i see nothing but sophistry. An empty vessel, indeed. Nothing but hot air ......

It's an odd approach, isn't it, e740JPH, to separate law from morality, as if laws are not founded on morality? I think Mach actually may somehow not be aware of that reality. I see nothing intellectual about any argument that stops at the top layer of an issue without delving deeper, which is essentially what all guilter arguments do.

 

[RandyN]

me too, I wish they had taken the camera crew down to the basketball courts and asked one of the guys of similar size and build as Rudy if he would attempt the climb on camera

DanO isn't there a picture of a ladder type thing somewhere? What stops RG from leaning a ladder (lattice) type thing against the wall and easily climbing up? I know I saw a pic somewhere where this type of tool is shown in the background...IIRC DanO mom or MIL or cousins uncles aunt picked this out from somewhere...or maybe I'm just crazy. Anything is possible I suppose.

 

[yimyammer]

Yes but of the two sides, one is drawn to the facts, evidence and truth while the other is led or at least moderated by a self proclaimed God. They deny the facts, and fail to even attempt a time line showing guilt while fitting facts...because that is impossible!

Not fascinating at all unless you also happen to find the Big Foot people fascinating in contrast to those who think they are bonkers...then sure....fascinating.

yes, I find it fascinating that someone can see something that seems clear as day to me and continue to proclaim with certainty the polar opposite.

It's mind boggling to me, especially coming from people that I don't think are stupid, quite the opposite actually. I think some highly intelligent people can't fathom ever being wrong and perhaps their self worth is so tied to being right and superior that to admit a mistake would be too big of a hit to their ego.

seems like I heard a saying: "knowledge makes arrogant" or something to that effect, seems to apply in this case with some folks

 

[RandyN]

Tesla you were there when the police were looking over the crime scene? I'll have to reconsider your insights based on that.

Was there video of them doing the search at all times?

Glass would be outside either way btw.

Wrong... unless you understand some new law of motion ...which would be HUGE!!! Then there is nothing to indicate any reason for ANY glass to be outside at all. A rock from outside would cause the glass to go along in the same direction of the rock which as a reminder would be towards the inside. It may be possible that some glass rebounded outside but that is far from proven and also far from certain. So it would not be outside either way...but if you have a new law of motion then lets get it out and published because this would be huge...

 

[yimyammer]

Ahhh yes he did.

Do you have a source for this claim like Grinder provided?

 

[RandyN]

yes, I find it fascinating that someone can see something that seems clear as day to me and continue to proclaim with certainty the polar opposite.

It's mind boggling to me, especially coming from people that I don't think are stupid, quite the opposite actually. I think some highly intelligent people can't fathom ever being wrong and perhaps their self worth is so tied to being right and superior that to admit a mistake would be too big of a hit to their ego. seems like I heard a saying: "knowledge makes arrogant" or something to that effect, seems to apply in this case with some folks

This is the likely reason for the likes of Mignini and a few bad cops...crafty but not intelligent or else they would have a better story without such crazy departures from reality. What is interesting to me is the fact that no one feels the duty to point out that the prosecutor is nutty as a fruit cake and instead several judges go out of their way to climb aboard his wacky train.

As far as PGP...sure crazy people can be intelligent...I find that scary rather than interesting. I also find the Big Footers scary though...quite in the same league as the PGP. Rock solidly blind to facts, evidence and logic. Isn't that the definition of crazy?