Nailed: Ten Christian Myths that show Jesus never existed

[Brainache]

Are you familiar with Romulus and Remus in Plutarch's Romulus? Are you familiar with the hundreds of Jewish, Greek and Roman mythological characters?

Gods are considered mythological characters. Jesus was God Creator.

What an interesting and novel point.

What do you think about this:

 

[dejudge]

And how exactly is it implausible, besides of course you just asserting it is. Not that it of course matters considering that it appears the early Gospels viewed Jesus as purely human and not God (as I and various others have said several times.) And considering that the idea of him being God seems to be very clearly a later invention, I see no reason to think that anyone worshiped him.

It is simply erroneous that the early Gospels viewed Jesus as purely human when it is specifically claimed Jesus WALKED on the sea and transfigured in gMark. No purely human can walk on the sea and transfigure.

It is clear that you are not familiar with the early Gospels.

On top of this, I see no particular reason to think that Romans followed him. You seem more eager to make various claims about who this historical Jesus guy is than I do. If you are going to address someone's point then try not to put up strawmen, and maybe try to actually address it instead of just saying "it's implausible."

You do not know the difference between a 'strawman' argument and an 'opposing' argument.

If you argue that an historical Jesus is plausible then inherently one can oppose you by arguing an historical Jesus is implausible based on the existing evidence from antiquity.

...It's just the attempt to poison the well instead of making a real argument of how nothing in the Bible could at all possibly be true and must be completely 100% mythical and made up.

I never made such an argument. You promote propaganda.


I have already stated that the characters in the Bible called Pilate, Herod, Tiberius, Caiaphas and Agrippa can be found and corroborated in non-apologetic sources.

However, Jesus of Nazareth, the 12 disciples and Paul are not corroborated in non-apologetic sources. Plus, ALL the authors of the NT are unknown outside apologetics.

 

[NekoTheCat]

It is simply erroneous that the early Gospels viewed Jesus as purely human when it is specifically claimed Jesus WALKED on the sea and transfigured in gMark. No purely human can walk on the sea and transfigure.

It is clear that you are not familiar with the early Gospels.

Well if we are going to just state what the other isn't familiar with, it's clear you aren't very familiar with redaction criticism, or the term miracle, or even religions in general. The fact that Jesus is said to have done miraculous things doesn't make him god no more than it makes Moses or anyone else a god. In fact various Christians today still claim to do miracles but most certainly don't seem to think they are a god. People doing miraculous things is pretty standard for religions, especially for prophets or important leaders.

You do not know the difference between a 'strawman' argument and an 'opposing' argument.

I don't think misrepresenting someone's position is an opposing argument.

If you argue that an historical Jesus is plausible then inherently one can oppose you by arguing an historical Jesus is implausible based on the existing evidence from antiquity.

Theoretically I'd suppose so.

I never made such an argument. You promote propaganda.

Actually that was exactly my point. You haven't made such an argument. Yet you rather need to have such an argument to be justified in truly believing that Jesus was an entirely mythical figure.

I have already stated that the characters in the Bible called Pilate, Herod, Tiberius, Caiaphas and Agrippa can be found and corroborated in non-apologetic sources.

However, Jesus of Nazareth, the 12 disciples and Paul are not corroborated in non-apologetic sources. Plus, ALL the authors of the NT are unknown outside apologetics.

And it's already been stated how irrelevant this is.

 

[Brainache]

I'll be asking my friend for his bible tomorrow so hopefully can give you the quote about Jesus being Greek

Hi MsTricky, is it the verse where Jesus meets a woman at a well and tells her all the things that she'd done? About her no-good husband etc?

If so, I think there's a song:

 

[I Ratant]

The "woman at the well" is an addition circa 1300 AD by Erasmus, in his translations.

 

[Brainache]

The "woman at the well" is an addition circa 1300 AD by Erasmus, in his translations.

I know it's sacrilege, but I prefer this version:

 

[I Ratant]

In view of the priggishness of the times, I'd expect a public outing of sinful behavior to be met with stones.... WWJ have done were that the outcome?
But, the gal possibly was a serial collector of husbands... such as..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znv_sUPaKfE

 

[dejudge]

I'm a tad confused by the inconsistency bolded...

1. The bible is a book of myths: using this book of myth as evidence or indication of HJ is nonsense.

2. The bible is a book of myths: using this book of myth as evidence or indication that Jesus = Creator God is valid, and the real truth, is NOT(?) nonsense.

Explain, please, how using a book of myths is valid for demonstrating the truth of Jesus = Creator God, but not Jesus = possible real person?

Or, is this a pedantic argument, that Jesus being conceived by a heavenly entity is not by definition human, but only something that appeared human in many respects? And that like any possible HJ, such Creator God Jesus is fictional?

You need to explain why people are using the Bible to argue that Jesus was a human being.

 

[dejudge]

Well if we are going to just state what the other isn't familiar with, it's clear you aren't very familiar with redaction criticism, or the term miracle, or even religions in general. The fact that Jesus is said to have done miraculous things doesn't make him god no more than it makes Moses or anyone else a god. In fact various Christians today still claim to do miracles but most certainly don't seem to think they are a god. People doing miraculous things is pretty standard for religions, especially for prophets or important leaders.

What really are you arguing about? Do you believe Satan the Devil was a human being? Satan tempted Jesus in the Bible.

Do you believe the angel Gabriel was a human being?

The angel Gabriel was sent by God to tell Mary she would get pregnant by a Holy Ghost.

 

[Brainache]

What really are you arguing about? Do you believe Satan the Devil was a human being? Satan tempted Jesus in the Bible.

Do you believe the angel Gabriel was a human being?

The angel Gabriel was sent by God to tell Mary she would get pregnant by a Holy Ghost.

Wow.

Who can oppose such ruthless logic?

You're on fire!

 

[abaddon]

It is simply erroneous that the early Gospels viewed Jesus as purely human when it is specifically claimed Jesus WALKED on the sea and transfigured in gMark. No purely human can walk on the sea and transfigure.

gMark post dates the events reported by quite a distance. No reason why the author of gMark could not have substantially embellished a tale of a real itinerant preacher.

It is clear that you are not familiar with the early Gospels.

Cos the story in them is just so much better.

You do not know the difference between a 'strawman' argument and an 'opposing' argument.

False dichotomy. You forgot to include utter indifference to the HJ existence or not. Given the preponderance of avowed atheists in this forum, that is a serious omission.

If you argue that an historical Jesus is plausible then inherently one can oppose you by arguing an historical Jesus is implausible based on the existing evidence from antiquity.

There were crackpot teachers by the bushel at the time. It's plausible that one of those got hijacked and exaggerated. So what? Why is it important to you? As an atheist it certainly isn't important to me.

No Sky Daddy, no ghost rapist, no unemployed shiftless offspring temporarily inconvenienced for your sins. Who really cares if some crackpot preacher got shanghaied into a hokey made up religion?

I never made such an argument. You promote propaganda.

Good for you.

I have already stated that the characters in the Bible called Pilate, Herod, Tiberius, Caiaphas and Agrippa can be found and corroborated in non-apologetic sources.

So can a bucket load of apocalyptic preachers of the era. Yawn.

However, Jesus of Nazareth, the 12 disciples and Paul are not corroborated in non-apologetic sources. Plus, ALL the authors of the NT are unknown outside apologetics.

Yup, those authors made it up. Possibly based on some vocal locals. Or not. Yawn.

 

[dejudge]

gMark post dates the events reported by quite a distance. No reason why the author of gMark could not have substantially embellished a tale of a real itinerant preacher.

No reason why gMark is not total fiction.

 

[Brainache]

No reason why gMark is not total fiction.

Maybe there were people still alive in 70 CE who knew a little bit about what had been happening in Judea for the past 40 years or so.

Crazy idea I know, but someone might have known who Jesus was...

 

[dejudge]

Maybe there were people still alive in 70 CE who knew a little bit about what had been happening in Judea for the past 40 years or so.

Crazy idea I know, but someone might have known who Jesus was...

You appear to be suffering from severe memory problems.

The 12 Apostles including Peter, James, John, and Paul should have been preaching about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus the Son of God since at least 37-41 CE or the time of King Aretas.

According to a Pauline writer and evangelist of the Roman Empire Jesus was God's own Son and resurrected for the Remission of Sins.

If Jesus was known as a human being then the Pauline teachings do not make sense.

How in the world could Paul a Pharisee openly Lie about a dead Jew to Roman citizens for decades claiming that a dead and resurrected Jew was the Savior of all mankind and that the whole world should BOW to the name of a DEAD Jew?

An historical Jesus and authentic Pauline Gospels do NOT add up.

 

[Craig B]

... If Jesus was known as a human being then the Pauline teachings do not make sense.

This one makes sense only if Paul thought Jesus was a human being:

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

You ask an odd question

How in the world could Paul a Pharisee openly Lie about a dead Jew to Roman citizens for decades claiming that a dead and resurrected Jew was the Savior of all mankind and that the whole world should BOW to the name of a DEAD Jew?

Lies and delusions are only too common. Paul could easily have imagined nonsense like that. He had a vision of Jesus in circumstances that resemble the effects of an epileptic seizure, after all.

An historical Jesus and authentic Pauline Gospels do NOT add up.

Yes they do. Stories of miracles may be added to the biography of authentic historical figures, as was done with Alexander.

While it is clear that his father had a great impact on him, Alexander himself chose to see his success as ordained by divine forces. He called himself the son of Zeus, and so claimed the status of a demi-god, linking his blood-line to his two favorite heroes of antiquity, Achilles and Herakles, and modeling his behavior after theirs. This belief in his divinity was instilled in him by Olympias who also told him that his was a virgin birth as she had been miraculously impregnated by Zeus himself. His birth was associated with great signs and wonders, such as a bright star gleaming over Macedonia that night and the destruction of the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus.

http://www.ancient.eu.com/Alexander_the_Great/ But Alexander most certainly existed.

 

[NekoTheCat]

What really are you arguing about? Do you believe Satan the Devil was a human being? Satan tempted Jesus in the Bible.

Do you believe the angel Gabriel was a human being?

The angel Gabriel was sent by God to tell Mary she would get pregnant by a Holy Ghost.

I don't see why you seem to have this view that either everything stated in it is true, or none of it is. Texts in history aren't always black and white being either completely fiction or completely true. Try maybe thinking about this for a couple minutes and I'm sure you can figure out what exactly my position is on your own. Really one of the first steps to having a successful argument is understanding what exactly the other's position is. Yet you seem to not have a clue no matter how well we spell it out. Given that this issue has pretty much already been gone over several times by various different people, I'm gonna have to agree with Brainache that these questions don't really deserve a serious response, at least not one beyond what I'm giving now.

 

[Brainache]

You appear to be suffering from severe memory problems.

The 12 Apostles including Peter, James, John, and Paul should have been preaching about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus the Son of God since at least 37-41 CE or the time of King Aretas.

According to a Pauline writer and evangelist of the Roman Empire Jesus was God's own Son and resurrected for the Remission of Sins.

If Jesus was known as a human being then the Pauline teachings do not make sense.

How in the world could Paul a Pharisee openly Lie about a dead Jew to Roman citizens for decades claiming that a dead and resurrected Jew was the Savior of all mankind and that the whole world should BOW to the name of a DEAD Jew?

An historical Jesus and authentic Pauline Gospels do NOT add up.

I wonder just how far I'll get before you realise these arguments are stupid?

... I'm gonna have to agree with Brainache that these questions don't really deserve a serious response, at least not one beyond what I'm giving now.

I did try at first. Now it seems more productive to introduce forumites to the work of a great artist like Nick Cave.

Cheers.

 

[David Mo]

You may find that less than 1% of historians worldwide have given an opinion of Jesus on Nazareth.

“Consensus” is a word that means a general agreement or common opinion. I was speaking about the experts in the issue. Not historians in general. I don’t consider relevant the opinion on first Century in Palestine by a historian of the Crimea war.

There is no consensus among historians that Jesus existed or did not exist. There is no study, no data, no statistics available that show the number of historians worldwide and the number who argue for or against an historical Jesus.

Some studies have been done about consensus. They are not statistical or quantitative, but they collect a broad agreement about Jesus’ existence between scholars. The consensus disappears beyond this basic data. Mythicists have done some interesting critical remarks about this consensus, but, in general don’t deny it exists. In Vridar blog (http://vridar.org/), a mythicist/minimalist site, you can find a lot of criticism against consensus. Consensus is not denied, but is considered as spurious, non significant or biased (this is my point).

I don’t know why you reject what is obvious. I think that to admit this obvious fact is the first step for a necessary criticism of the scholar mechanism in the Jesus historical quest.

 

[mstricky]

Hi MsTricky, is it the verse where Jesus meets a woman at a well and tells her all the things that she'd done? About her no-good husband etc?

If so, I think there's a song:

No it wasn't that verse, I think it was when he was in Capernaum.
My friends busy so looks like it may be a couple of days till I can ask him for his bible.

 

[Brainache]

No it wasn't that verse, I think it was when he was in Capernaum.
My friends busy so looks like it may be a couple of days till I can ask him for his bible.

I did a search on Bible Gateway of the NIV for "Capernaum" are any of these the verses you mean?:

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=capernaum&version=NIV&searchtype=all

Matthew 4:13
Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali—
Matthew 4:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Matthew 8:5
[ The Faith of the Centurion ] When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.

Matthew 8:4-6 (in Context) Matthew 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Matthew 11:23
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.

Matthew 11:22-24 (in Context) Matthew 11 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Matthew 17:24
[ The Temple Tax ] After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma temple tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?”

Matthew 17:23-25 (in Context) Matthew 17 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Mark 1:21
[ Jesus Drives Out an Impure Spirit ] They went to Capernaum, and when the Sabbath came, Jesus went into the synagogue and began to teach.
Mark 1:20-22 (in Context) Mark 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Mark 2:1
[ Jesus Forgives and Heals a Paralyzed Man ] A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home.
Mark 2:1-3 (in Context) Mark 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Mark 9:33
They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, “What were you arguing about on the road?”
Mark 9:32-34 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Luke 4:23
Jesus said to them, “Surely you will quote this proverb to me: ‘Physician, heal yourself!’ And you will tell me, ‘Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’”
Luke 4:22-24 (in Context) Luke 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Luke 4:31
[ Jesus Drives Out an Impure Spirit ] Then he went down to Capernaum, a town in Galilee, and on the Sabbath he taught the people.
Luke 4:30-32 (in Context) Luke 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Luke 7:1
[ The Faith of the Centurion ] When Jesus had finished saying all this to the people who were listening, he entered Capernaum.
Luke 7:1-3 (in Context) Luke 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Luke 10:15
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.
Luke 10:14-16 (in Context) Luke 10 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

John 2:12
After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.
John 2:11-13 (in Context) John 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

John 4:46
Once more he visited Cana in Galilee, where he had turned the water into wine. And there was a certain royal official whose son lay sick at Capernaum.
John 4:45-47 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

John 6:17
where they got into a boat and set off across the lake for Capernaum. By now it was dark, and Jesus had not yet joined them.
John 6:16-18 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

John 6:24
Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.
John 6:23-25 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

John 6:59
He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
John 6:58-60 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations