• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Paul The Herodian and the DSS

I really wish I had more than a split minute, but House can also refer to the ruling family class, and not to a physical structure.

There's actually a BCE timeline for a lot of this that I think could be reasonably argued and I will be outlining that proposition.
 
I really wish I had more than a split minute, but House can also refer to the ruling family class, and not to a physical structure.

There's actually a BCE timeline for a lot of this that I think could be reasonably argued and I will be outlining that proposition.

Ok. Don't rush. I'll try not to pile up too many points in the meantime.

I guess the main point is all of the Apocalyptic "End Times" imagery in these texts and the way it is seen as a contemporary event. I was of the understanding that this particular form of Judaism was pretty much exclusive to the 1st Century.

There is Eisenman's identification of who's who, but I think its mostly the Apocalyptic tone of it all, more than anything else.
 
If that's what's holding you up, you might find interest that apocalyptic literature was around in 1st c BCE, for instance, the text of Daniel...again, I'll have much more later and we'll see what you think once it's fully laid out.
 
If that's what's holding you up, you might find interest that apocalyptic literature was around in 1st c BCE, for instance, the text of Daniel...again, I'll have much more later and we'll see what you think once it's fully laid out.

No worries.

But Daniel put that Apocalypse in the future didn't he? Not as happening as he wrote.

I'll shut up now. Sorry.
 
No worries.

But Daniel put that Apocalypse in the future didn't he? Not as happening as he wrote.

I'll shut up now. Sorry.
Modern scholarship - and the ancient anti-Christian writer Porphyry - inclines to the view that though Daniel purports to date from the sixth century BCE, in fact it is a product of the Maccabean period of the first BCE.
The language of the book—part of which is Aramaic (2:4–7:28)—probably indicates a date of composition later than the Babylonian Exile (6th century bc). Numerous inaccuracies connected with the exilic period (no deportation occurred in 605 bc; Darius was a successor of Cyrus, not a predecessor; etc.) tend to confirm this judgment. Because its religious ideas do not belong to the 6th century bc, numerous scholars date Daniel in the first half of the 2nd century bc and relate the visions to the persecution of the Jews under Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175–164/163 bc).
(Enc. Britt. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/150969/The-Book-of-Daniel)
 
Modern scholarship - and the ancient anti-Christian writer Porphyry - inclines to the view that though Daniel purports to date from the sixth century BCE, in fact it is a product of the Maccabean period of the first BCE. (Enc. Britt. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/150969/The-Book-of-Daniel)

Yes, I had heard that.

But what we are talking about is thousands of Fanatics assured that they were living during the "End Times" that were predicted in those Apocalyptic books.

Movements like that take time to grow. They don't spring up overnight as soon as the book is written. Do they?

Ezekiel and Isaiah may be a bit earlier, but widespread apocalyptic Messianism? I'll need to see a bit more than that.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that it's not what I've read.
 
OK. One more post to pester Jayson (sorry)

Here's the old Kosher Ham Eisenman again:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-eisenman/james-the-just-as-righteo_b_4133599.html
These "Internal" data markers include, for instance: 1) several references to "the Community of the Poor" (that is, "the Ebionim" - popularly expressed as "the Ebionites", the same name as the Community James is supposed to have led in all Early Church literature); 2) that "the Wicked Priest", exactly as in the Habakkuk Pesher, sought to "put to death the Righteous Teacher", for which act - again as in the Habakkuk Pesher - God would "pay him His reward by delivering him into the hands of the Violent Ones of the Gentiles (i.e., "the 'Arizei ha-Go'im") to execute Judgement upon him" - in the Habakkuk Pesher, it is "upon the body of his flesh" (thus the late G. Vermes, but really "the flesh of his body" - for footnotes on matters such as these, see the total expanse of my work from 1977 to the present, including Maccabees, Zadokites, Christians, and Qumran and James the Just in the Habakkuk Pesher, E. J. Brill, 1984-86, The Dead Sea Scrolls and the First Christians,1996, and The New Testament Code, 2006 above).

This last, of course, is exactly what happens to James' destroyer, the High Priest Ananus ben Ananus, if one reads one's Josephus carefully, when the "Idumaeans" (i. e., the true "Violent Ones of the Gentiles", but in this instance allied to the revolutionary "Zealots" and "Sicarii") rampage through the City killing all the High Priests they come upon (who were viewed as "collaborators"); but, in particular, Ananus ben Ananus, mocking his dead body - perhaps even urinating upon it to render it impure - before throwing it outside the walls of the city without burial naked, as food for jackals and wolves. One might ask , why - why such abnormal hostility? You, dear reader, tell me. This is a good example of what can develop out of "the Internal Data" when used in a properly intelligent manner.

The reason I was so sure about my positions, right from the beginning, was because I knew that 1) given "the results" of both paleographical studies and those alleged of archaeology and AMS Carbon Dating, no sense whatever could be made of the Scrolls themselves - that is, "External Data'" such as this defeated the clear thrust of "the Internal Data." Put another way, these so-called "External" attempts to measure chronology rendered "the Internal Data" - that is, what the Scrolls themselves had to say - moot or inchoate; 2) most of the principal Qumran sectarian Scrolls, meaning those new Scrolls that had never been seen before, had to have been written at approximately the same time or, at least, in probable close chronological proximity - say within fifty years of one another whatever the paleographers, archaeologists, or analysts of Carbon Testing might say (this is what I mean by "the homogeneity of the documents" - and this because they contained the same dramatis personae as I have explained and repeat the same points in the same form with the same vocabulary in the same context over and over again. This is it!

I know you don't care for his histrionics, but can you tell me whether these "internal markers" he is talking about mean what he says they mean?

ETA: Jayson, I hope you don't hate me for posting this now, but I thought it best to post this stuff before you make your reply, because I will probably ask you about it all at some point anyway.
 
Last edited:
OK, so, here's the post.

I will offer the argument for equal consideration to Eisenman's proposal.
This proposition will argue for a 1st c BCE dating from applying the internal evidence as Eisenman did.
It will argue that the appropriate context could easily be the events leading to and involving the Maccabean revolt and subsequent reign.

For brevity, here's a summary of socio-political events leading up to the revolt from Wikipedia (they do a better job summarizing this information in brief than I would, so I figure I'll just cite their entry):
In the 2nd century BCE, Judea lay between the Ptolemaic Kingdom based in Egypt and the Seleucid empire based in Syria, kingdoms formed after the death of Alexander the Great (356–323 BCE). Judea had been under Ptolemaic rule, but fell to the Seleucids around 200 BCE. Judea at that time had been affected by the Hellenization begun by Alexander. Some Jews, mainly those of the urban upper class, notably the Tobiad family, wished to dispense with Jewish law and to adopt a Greek lifestyle. According to the historian Victor Tcherikover, the main motive for the Tobiads' Hellenism was economic and political.[1] The Hellenizing Jews built a gymnasium in Jerusalem, competed in international Greek games, "removed their marks of circumcision and repudiated the holy covenant".[2]
When Antiochus IV Epiphanes (ca. 215–164 BCE), became ruler of the Seleucid Empire in 175 BCE, the High Priest in Jerusalem was Onias III. To Antiochus, the High Priest was merely a local governor within his realm, who could be appointed or dismissed at will, while to orthodox Jews he was divinely appointed.[3] Jason, the brother of Onias, bribed Antiochus to make him High Priest instead. Jason abolished the traditional theocracy and constituted Jerusalem as a Greek polis.[1][4] Menelaus then bribed Antiochus and was appointed High Priest in place of Jason. Menelaus had Onias assassinated. Menelaus' brother Lysimachus stole holy vessels from the Temple, causing riots that led to his death. Menelaus was arrested for Onias' murder, and was arraigned before Antiochus, but he bribed his way out of trouble. Jason subsequently drove out Menelaus and became High Priest again. Antiochus pillaged the Temple, attacked Jerusalem and "led captive the women and children".[5] From this point onwards, Antiochus pursued a zealous Hellenizing policy. He made possession of the Torah a capital offense and burned the copies he could find.[6] According to 1 Maccabees, he banned many traditional Jewish religious practices: Jewish sacrifice was forbidden, sabbaths and feasts were banned. Circumcision was outlawed, and mothers who circumcised their babies were killed along with their families.[7] Altars to Greek gods were set up and animals prohibited to Jews were sacrificed on them. The idol of Olympian Zeus was placed on the altar of the Temple. The motives of Antiochus are unclear. He may have been incensed at the overthrow of his appointee, Menelaus,[3] or he may have been responding to an orthodox Jewish revolt that drew on the Temple and the Torah for its strength[1] and encouraged by a group of radical Hellenizers among the Jews.[8]

Of worth mentioning, we should keep in mind that:
The Hasmonean dynasty[2] (Hebrew: חשמונאים‎, r Ḥashmona'im; Audio) was the ruling dynasty of Judea and surrounding regions during classical antiquity. Between c. 140 and c. 116 BCE, the dynasty ruled semi-autonomously from the Seleucids in the region of Judea. From 110 BCE, with the Seleucid empire disintegrating, the dynasty became fully independent, expanded into the neighbouring regions of Galilee, Iturea, Perea, Idumea and Samaria, and took the title "basileus". Some modern scholars refer to this period as an independent kingdom of Israel.[3] In 63 BCE, the kingdom was conquered by the Roman Republic, broken up and set up as a Roman client state. The Kingdom had survived for 103 years before yielding to the Herodian Dynasty in 37 BCE. Even then, Herod the Great tried to bolster the legitimacy of his reign by marrying a Hasmonean princess, Mariamne, and planning to drown the last male Hasmonean heir at his Jericho palace.
The dynasty was established under the leadership of Simon Maccabaeus, two decades after his brother Judas the Maccabee ("Hammer") defeated the Seleucid army during the Maccabean Revolt. According to historical sources, including 1 Maccabees and 2 Maccabees and the first book of The Jewish War by Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (CE 37–c. 100),[4] after Antiochus IV's successful invasion of Ptolemaic Egypt was turned back by the intervention of the Roman Republic,[5][6] Antiochus instead moved to assert strict control over Israel, sacking Jerusalem and its Temple, suppressing Jewish religious and cultural observances, and imposing Hellenistic practices. The ensuing revolt by the Jews (167 BCE) began a twenty-five-year period of Jewish independence potentiated by the steady collapse of the Seleucid Empire under attacks from the rising powers of the Roman Republic and the Parthian Empire. However, the same power vacuum that enabled the Jewish state to be recognized by the Roman Senate c. 139 BCE was later exploited by the Romans themselves. Hyrcanus II and Aristobulus II, Simon's great-grandsons, became pawns in a proxy war between Julius Caesar and Pompey the Great. The deaths of Pompey (48 BCE), Caesar (44 BCE), and the related Roman civil wars temporarily relaxed Rome's grip on Israel, allowing a very brief Hasmonean resurgence backed by the Parthian Empire. This short independence was rapidly crushed by the Romans under Mark Antony and Octavian. The installation of Herod the Great (an Idumean) as king in 37 BCE made Israel a Roman client state and marked the end of the Hasmonean dynasty. In CE 6, Rome joined Judea proper, Samaria and Idumea (biblical Edom) into the Roman province of Iudaea. In CE 44, Rome installed the rule of a Roman procurator side by side with the rule of the Herodian kings (specifically Agrippa I 41–44 and Agrippa II 50–100).

The missing High Priest time period in this age should also be noted:
In 1 Maccabees, no High Priest is named for the period from the death of Alcimus in 159 BCE to the claiming of the position of High Priest by Jonathan on the authority of Alexander Balas in 152 BCE (1 Macc 10:18-20). From this it could be concluded that there was no High Priest for these years, and indeed Josephus, drawing heavily on I Maccabees at this point in his history, comes to that conclusion (Ant. 20.237). It is improbable, however, that the office remained completely vacant for these years. Stegemann suggests that the reason that nothing is said in 1 Maccabees about a High Priest between Alcimus and Jonathan was apologetic: to conceal the fact that the Hasmoneans obtained the High Priesthood by usurping it from its rightful holder, the Teacher of Righteousness.

And of course, we need to have notice of the revolt itself:
In the narrative of I Maccabees, after Antiochus issued his decrees forbidding Jewish religious practice, a rural Jewish priest from Modiin, Mattathias the Hasmonean, sparked the revolt against the Seleucid Empire by refusing to worship the Greek gods. Mattathias killed a Hellenistic Jew who stepped forward to offer a sacrifice to an idol in Mattathias' place. He and his five sons fled to the wilderness of Judah. After Mattathias' death about one year later in 166 BCE, his son Judas Maccabee led an army of Jewish dissidents to victory over the Seleucid dynasty in guerrilla warfare, which at first was directed against Hellenizing Jews, of whom there were many. The Maccabees destroyed pagan altars in the villages, circumcised boys and forced Jews into outlawry.[8] The term Maccabees as used to describe the Jewish army is taken from the Hebrew word for "hammer".[9]
The revolt involved many battles, in which the Maccabean forces gained notoriety among the Seleucid army for their use of guerrilla tactics. After the victory, the Maccabees entered Jerusalem in triumph and ritually cleansed the Temple, reestablishing traditional Jewish worship there and installing Jonathan Maccabee as high priest. A large Seleucid army was sent to quash the revolt, but returned to Syria on the death of Antiochus IV. Its commander Lysias, preoccupied with internal Seleucid affairs, agreed to a political compromise that restored religious freedom.
The Jewish festival of Hanukkah celebrates the re-dedication of the Temple following Judah Maccabee's victory over the Seleucids. According to Rabbinic tradition, the victorious Maccabees could only find a small jug of oil that had remained uncontaminated by virtue of a seal, and although it only contained enough oil to sustain the Menorah for one day, it miraculously lasted for eight days, by which time further oil could be procured.

Which means we need to have contextual understanding of the Zadok line.
Historical data show that the high-priesthood remained in the progeny of the Zadokites from the time of Zadok up until the rise of the Maccabees, in about 167 BCE.
...
The house of Zadok occupied the high priesthood through much of the Second Temple's time, from Jehoshua ben Jehozadak after the Exile, down to Simon II (much praised in Ben Sira 50), his eldest son Onias III, and his usurping second son Jason (or Jehoshua), who introduced the programme of Hellenization that eventually led to the Maccabean Revolt.
...
Josephus records that Onias IV went to Leontopolis in the Egyptian nome of Heliopolis with a significant following, and for lending military support to the Ptolemaic Pharaoh was given land to build a temple to rival the Temple in Jerusalem (although Josephus also ascribes this to Onias III, while dating the project so as to suggest Onias II). It has been suggested that Onias or members of his Zadokite house may have also founded the community at Qumran.

Now, for the start of this, I'm just going to be rather candid and use the format of discussion, rather than producing a lengthy report-style format.

The way for which to address finite points (considering the volume of data we're working with) will be for you (Brainache, or others) to pose questions and I will address those questions back in reference to the above setting and the DSS.


Before this, however, I will discuss why I think it makes sense as a plausible link to the DSS.


First, we have all of the unrest noted above, which politically, theologically, and socially fits within the DSS tonality and discussions internally.

Second, the Maccabean time period and the era just prior to it was subject to extreme corruptions to incredibly offensive lengths - far more offensive than anything going on in the 1st c CE era.

Third, the Maccabean revolt was extremely militant and relied heavily on generating new theo-political propaganda; their opponents were equally of the same subjection of military force during these times due largely to the breakout of civil unrest and eventually outright civil war.

Fourth, the established Hasmonean rule became heavily plagued with royal in-fighting and assassinations, as well as overthrew the age-old Zadok line priesthood and radically changed the priesthood hierarchy and customs.

Fifth, it should be noted that the cultural behavior of the Hebrew politics regarding overthrows involves not only overthrowing, but also building a textual justification for the overthrow.
This is similar to how America produced its justification in the Declaration of Independence, which filled its volume with the philosophical reasons the revolutionaries were justified in their overthrow, and how it was not an illegal action.

In the Hebrew version of this behavior of justification for overthrow, not only would new texts be produced, but existing texts would be pulled in as part of the justification library, and many times copied texts would have slight variations in terminologies and focus altered to serve the purpose of the given justification being made.

For example, "Israel" should not be understood as "All Hebrew peoples" in many of the texts, as, instead, the reference is often a 5th c BCE justification referencing the previous Kingdom of Israel and sliding more fault and blame onto that kingdom than was previously attributed, so to show the rightness of Judah.

When primary theocratic factions in the Hebrew culture are seriously fighting for power, this is where we will see an increase of texts and variations in them.


Sixth, the placement of the texts into caves is an interesting and notable characteristic that is not satisfied by Eisenman's proposition.
Building these caves and organizing all of this material to produce a single-thread tangent of justification would take a considerable amount of textual access, logistical and physical effort, and money.

The other consideration of the caves are their incredibly remote locations and difficulty for access.

This is a group who wanted to carry on their work without being found, or reached.

And Seventh, the Zadok were favored heavily by the prophet Ezekiel and are projected to be the winning priesthood lineage while the Levites are considered foul and corrupt; they are prophetically claimed to succeed to the prophetic Third Temple, which allegedly would be entirely pure and incapable of corruption.
Onias had been party with the Maccabeans and expected to be seated as high priest, but an intrusion occurred by Alcimus as Alcimus pandered for favor to Demetrius I Soter (Seleucid King of Antioch) and Alcimus gained that favor of an army to aid in instating him as high priest in Judah. His debt for the favor, however, was the allegiance with Hellenization (eventually he destroyed the wall separating the Gentiles and Israelites in the Temple), and his Hellenization plans and extreme cruelties caused the Jews of Judah to chase him out of Judah until he could return three volleys later by full force attack with more armies and took over the priesthood for a short time until his death.

Onias, and the adherents to the Zadok line, saw Alcimus as the most vial and wicked corruption of the priesthood of their time.
Onias went on to raise an army in Egypt to attempt to beat out Alcimus, but did not succeed.
Eventually Onias built another temple in Egypt, claiming that the Second Temple would fall soon and that Jews would flock to the new righteous Temple in Egypt; this prediction of his never came to fruition.
While the 2nd Temple did fall, the Temple in Egypt never became a replacement, nor was it ever heavily used. Even Egyptian Jews mostly preferred the Temple in Judah; their homeland.



So here is an alternative to Eisenman; one which matches the internal evidence just as much, or more so, than Eisenman's proposition.
This proposition, unlike Eisenman's, also doesn't have to twist people or groups into lining up with what's in the DSS documents; most of the content just simply does, and we don't have to conjecture secret allegiances that haven't any suggestion of themselves outside of our proposition to get things to line up.
 
Last edited:
I won't cite all the most interesting posts of yours which have made this thread a unique learning experience, but content myself with a heartfelt thank you and a pledge of assistance, translation tour/gastronomic guide if you or yours are ever in the area.
I am humbled, thank you!

I simply enjoy the work; you guys keep giving me really fascinating topics to dig at and I look forward to more in the future!
 
I agree Jayson.

This thread of mine would likely have died a while ago and the crazier ideas gone unchallenged if not for you.

Thanks.
That would have been a shame too; this is a great topic with lots to investigate and analyze!

Thank you for creating the topic and being such a good host for discussion!
 
OK, so, here's the post.

I will offer the argument for equal consideration to Eisenman's proposal.
This proposition will argue for a 1st c BCE dating from applying the internal evidence as Eisenman did.
It will argue that the appropriate context could easily be the events leading to and involving the Maccabean revolt and subsequent reign.

For brevity, here's a summary of socio-political events leading up to the revolt from Wikipedia (they do a better job summarizing this information in brief than I would, so I figure I'll just cite their entry):
In the 2nd century BCE, Judea lay between the Ptolemaic Kingdom based in Egypt and the Seleucid empire based in Syria, kingdoms formed after the death of Alexander the Great (356–323 BCE). Judea had been under Ptolemaic rule, but fell to the Seleucids around 200 BCE. Judea at that time had been affected by the Hellenization begun by Alexander...

OK.

Of worth mentioning, we should keep in mind that:
The Hasmonean dynasty[2] (Hebrew: חשמונאים‎, r Ḥashmona'im; Audio) was the ruling dynasty of Judea and surrounding regions during classical antiquity. Between c. 140 and c. 116 BCE, the dynasty ruled semi-autonomously from the Seleucids in the region of Judea. From 110 BCE, with the Seleucid empire disintegrating, the dynasty became fully independent, expanded into the neighbouring regions of Galilee, Iturea, Perea, Idumea and Samaria, and took the title "basileus". Some modern scholars refer to this period as an independent kingdom of Israel.[3] In 63 BCE, the kingdom was conquered by the Roman Republic, broken up and set up as a Roman client state. The Kingdom had survived for 103 years before yielding to the Herodian Dynasty in 37 BCE. Even then, Herod the Great tried to bolster the legitimacy of his reign by marrying a Hasmonean princess, Mariamne, and planning to drown the last male Hasmonean heir at his Jericho palace...

So the period you are ascribing these scrolls to is actually 2nd century BCE isn't it? If you are associating them with the uprising of Judas Maccabee, you mean 160 BCE, not 60 BCE, don't you?

Isn't that a bit unlikely?

The missing High Priest time period in this age should also be noted:
In 1 Maccabees, no High Priest is named for the period from the death of Alcimus in 159 BCE to the claiming of the position of High Priest by Jonathan on the authority of Alexander Balas in 152 BCE (1 Macc 10:18-20). From this it could be concluded that there was no High Priest for these years, and indeed Josephus, drawing heavily on I Maccabees at this point in his history, comes to that conclusion (Ant. 20.237). It is improbable, however, that the office remained completely vacant for these years. Stegemann suggests that the reason that nothing is said in 1 Maccabees about a High Priest between Alcimus and Jonathan was apologetic: to conceal the fact that the Hasmoneans obtained the High Priesthood by usurping it from its rightful holder, the Teacher of Righteousness.

I'm sorry Jayson, I'm not sure if this is the format you wanted for the reply, I'm no good at formalities. If I were, I might interject the word: Poppycock! at this point.

He's just invented several generations of people without any evidence, to suit his preconceived dating.

Either way, the Herodian High Priests were definitely not "Sons of Zadok".

And of course, we need to have notice of the revolt itself:
In the narrative of I Maccabees, after Antiochus issued his decrees forbidding Jewish religious practice, a rural Jewish priest from Modiin, Mattathias the Hasmonean, sparked the revolt against the Seleucid Empire by refusing to worship the Greek gods. Mattathias killed a Hellenistic Jew who stepped forward to offer a sacrifice to an idol in Mattathias' place. He and his five sons fled to the wilderness of Judah. After Mattathias' death about one year later in 166 BCE, his son Judas Maccabee led an army of Jewish dissidents to victory over the Seleucid dynasty in guerrilla warfare, which at first was directed against Hellenizing Jews, of whom there were many. The Maccabees destroyed pagan altars in the villages, circumcised boys and forced Jews into outlawry.[8] The term Maccabees as used to describe the Jewish army is taken from the Hebrew word for "hammer".[9]
The revolt involved many battles, in which the Maccabean forces gained notoriety among the Seleucid army for their use of guerrilla tactics. After the victory, the Maccabees entered Jerusalem in triumph and ritually cleansed the Temple, reestablishing traditional Jewish worship there and installing Jonathan Maccabee as high priest. A large Seleucid army was sent to quash the revolt, but returned to Syria on the death of Antiochus IV. Its commander Lysias, preoccupied with internal Seleucid affairs, agreed to a political compromise that restored religious freedom.
The Jewish festival of Hanukkah celebrates the re-dedication of the Temple following Judah Maccabee's victory over the Seleucids. According to Rabbinic tradition, the victorious Maccabees could only find a small jug of oil that had remained uncontaminated by virtue of a seal, and although it only contained enough oil to sustain the Menorah for one day, it miraculously lasted for eight days, by which time further oil could be procured.

See the bold, for the dates. The scrolls would have to be even earlier than that, because they speak of overthrowing the wicked oppressors in the future tense.

Which means we need to have contextual understanding of the Zadok line.
Historical data show that the high-priesthood remained in the progeny of the Zadokites from the time of Zadok up until the rise of the Maccabees, in about 167 BCE.
...
The house of Zadok occupied the high priesthood through much of the Second Temple's time, from Jehoshua ben Jehozadak after the Exile, down to Simon II (much praised in Ben Sira 50), his eldest son Onias III, and his usurping second son Jason (or Jehoshua), who introduced the programme of Hellenization that eventually led to the Maccabean Revolt.
...
Josephus records that Onias IV went to Leontopolis in the Egyptian nome of Heliopolis with a significant following, and for lending military support to the Ptolemaic Pharaoh was given land to build a temple to rival the Temple in Jerusalem (although Josephus also ascribes this to Onias III, while dating the project so as to suggest Onias II). It has been suggested that Onias or members of his Zadokite house may have also founded the community at Qumran.

Doesn't fit the description of the Temple from the Scrolls. It's in Egypt, for a start...

Now, for the start of this, I'm just going to be rather candid and use the format of discussion, rather than producing a lengthy report-style format.

The way for which to address finite points (considering the volume of data we're working with) will be for you (Brainache, or others) to pose questions and I will address those questions back in reference to the above setting and the DSS.


Before this, however, I will discuss why I think it makes sense as a plausible link to the DSS.


First, we have all of the unrest noted above, which politically, theologically, and socially fits within the DSS tonality and discussions internally.

Second, the Maccabean time period and the era just prior to it was subject to extreme corruptions to incredibly offensive lengths - far more offensive than anything going on in the 1st c CE era.

Third, the Maccabean revolt was extremely militant and relied heavily on generating new theo-political propaganda; their opponents were equally of the same subjection of military force during these times due largely to the breakout of civil unrest and eventually outright civil war.

Fourth, the established Hasmonean rule became heavily plagued with royal in-fighting and assassinations, as well as overthrew the age-old Zadok line priesthood and radically changed the priesthood hierarchy and customs.

Fifth, it should be noted that the cultural behavior of the Hebrew politics regarding overthrows involves not only overthrowing, but also building a textual justification for the overthrow.
This is similar to how America produced its justification in the Declaration of Independence, which filled its volume with the philosophical reasons the revolutionaries were justified in their overthrow, and how it was not an illegal action.

In the Hebrew version of this behavior of justification for overthrow, not only would new texts be produced, but existing texts would be pulled in as part of the justification library, and many times copied texts would have slight variations in terminologies and focus altered to serve the purpose of the given justification being made.

For example, "Israel" should not be understood as "All Hebrew peoples" in many of the texts, as, instead, the reference is often a 5th c BCE justification referencing the previous Kingdom of Israel and sliding more fault and blame onto that kingdom than was previously attributed, so to show the rightness of Judah.

When primary theocratic factions in the Hebrew culture are seriously fighting for power, this is where we will see an increase of texts and variations in them.


Sixth, the placement of the texts into caves is an interesting and notable characteristic that is not satisfied by Eisenman's proposition.
Building these caves and organizing all of this material to produce a single-thread tangent of justification would take a considerable amount of textual access, logistical and physical effort, and money.

The other consideration of the caves are their incredibly remote locations and difficulty for access.

This is a group who wanted to carry on their work without being found, or reached.

And Seventh, the Zadok were favored heavily by the prophet Ezekiel and are projected to be the winning priesthood lineage while the Levites are considered foul and corrupt; they are prophetically claimed to succeed to the prophetic Third Temple, which allegedly would be entirely pure and incapable of corruption.
Onias had been party with the Maccabeans and expected to be seated as high priest, but an intrusion occurred by Alcimus as Alcimus pandered for favor to Demetrius I Soter (Seleucid King of Antioch) and Alcimus gained that favor of an army to aid in instating him as high priest in Judah. His debt for the favor, however, was the allegiance with Hellenization (eventually he destroyed the wall separating the Gentiles and Israelites in the Temple), and his Hellenization plans and extreme cruelties caused the Jews of Judah to chase him out of Judah until he could return three volleys later by full force attack with more armies and took over the priesthood for a short time until his death.

Onias, and the adherents to the Zadok line, saw Alcimus as the most vial and wicked corruption of the priesthood of their time.
Onias went on to raise an army in Egypt to attempt to beat out Alcimus, but did not succeed.
Eventually Onias built another temple in Egypt, claiming that the Second Temple would fall soon and that Jews would flock to the new righteous Temple in Egypt; this prediction of his never came to fruition.
While the 2nd Temple did fall, the Temple in Egypt never became a replacement, nor was it ever heavily used. Even Egyptian Jews mostly preferred the Temple in Judah; their homeland.



So here is an alternative to Eisenman; one which matches the internal evidence just as much, or more so, than Eisenman's proposition.
This proposition, unlike Eisenman's, also doesn't have to twist people or groups into lining up with what's in the DSS documents; most of the content just simply does, and we don't have to conjecture secret allegiances that haven't any suggestion of themselves outside of our proposition to get things to line up.

I have to disagree. Your scenario doesn't fit as easily into the DSS material that I am aware of, and it dates it all as pre-166 BCE.

Meanwhile the site at Qumran was occupied by a community (off and on) right up until 70 CE. They were making parchment and writing Scrolls, what happened to those Scrolls?

Sorry Jayson, you haven't convinced me yet.
 
That would have been a shame too; this is a great topic with lots to investigate and analyze!

Thank you for creating the topic and being such a good host for discussion!

No worries.

Now I'll just duck for cover...:dig:
 
... but House can also refer to the ruling family class, and not to a physical structure.

...

Just on this earlier point:
...
In the deliberative council of the community there shall be twelve laymen and three priests schooled to perfection in all that has been revealed of the entire Law. their duty shall be to set the standard for the practice of truth, righteousness and justice, and for the exercise of charity and humility in human relations; and to show how, by control of impulse and contrition of spirit, faithfulness may be maintained on earth; how, by active performance of justice and passive submission to the trials of chastisement, iniquity may be cleared, and how one can walk with all men with the quality of truth and in conduct appropriate to every occasion.

So long as these men exist in Israel, the deliberative council of the community will rest securely on a basis of truth. It will become a plant evergreen. Insofar as the laymen are concerned, it will be indeed a sanctuary; and insofar as the priesthood is concerned, it will indeed constitute the basis for a true 'holy of holies'. The members of community will be in all justice the witnesses of God's truth and the elect of His favor, effecting atonement for the earth and ensuring the requital of the wicked. They will be, indeed, a 'tested bulwark' and 'precious cornerstone' (Isaiah 28:16], which shall never be shaken or moved from their place. As for the priesthood, they shall be a seat for the holy of holies, inasmuch as all of them will then have knowledge of the Covenant of justice and all of them be qualified to offer what will be indeed 'a pleasant savor' to the Lord. And as for the laity, they will constitute a household of integrity and truth, qualified to maintain the Covenant as an everlasting pact. they shall prove acceptable to God, so that He will shrive the earth of its guilt, bring final judgment upon wickedness, and perversity shall be no more.
...
http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/md.htm

Like that?

They were building a "Temple from the Community", I think I've heard that somewhere else...:)
 
I will respond more tomorrow, but, yes; I'm sorry, I had been meaning 2nd c BCE the entire time. It's the one century I screw up the name of because I space out 0-100 as separate.

I'll explain why it fits and answer your questions tomorrow.
 
I will respond more tomorrow, but, yes; I'm sorry, I had been meaning 2nd c BCE the entire time. It's the one century I screw up the name of because I space out 0-100 as separate.

I'll explain why it fits and answer your questions tomorrow.

No worries.
 
...The ensuing revolt by the Jews (167 BCE) began a twenty-five-year period of Jewish independence potentiated by the steady collapse of the Seleucid Empire under attacks from the rising powers of the Roman Republic and the Parthian Empire. However, the same power vacuum that enabled the Jewish state to be recognized by the Roman Senate c. 139 BCE was later exploited by the Romans themselves. Hyrcanus II and Aristobulus II, Simon's great-grandsons, became pawns in a proxy war between Julius Caesar and Pompey the Great. The deaths of Pompey (48 BCE), Caesar (44 BCE), and the related Roman civil wars temporarily relaxed Rome's grip on Israel, allowing a very brief Hasmonean resurgence backed by the Parthian Empire. This short independence was rapidly crushed by the Romans under Mark Antony and Octavian. The installation of Herod the Great (an Idumean) as king in 37 BCE made Israel a Roman client state and marked the end of the Hasmonean dynasty. ...

To my ignorant eye, that hilited bit helps me to understand the Roman animosity to the Jews in general.
I'm also beginning to understand just how unacceptable Paul's preaching to the Gentiles must have been to the more conservative church members.

Strange and disturbing times, indeed.
From Antiochus IV Epiphanes to the Diaspora it sounds as though the only breathing space the Jews had was under the Roman heel.
 
Sixth, the placement of the texts into caves is an interesting and notable characteristic that is not satisfied by Eisenman's proposition.
Building these caves and organizing all of this material to produce a single-thread tangent of justification would take a considerable amount of textual access, logistical and physical effort, and money.

The other consideration of the caves are their incredibly remote locations and difficulty for access.

This is a group who wanted to carry on their work without being found, or reached.

Perhaps I'm hopelessly pre-coffee, but the above doesn't doesn't quite mesh with
...Meanwhile the site at Qumran was occupied by a community (off and on) right up until 70 CE. They were making parchment and writing Scrolls, what happened to those Scrolls? ...

Off to learn more.
And make coffee.
 
Sixth, the placement of the texts into caves is an interesting and notable characteristic that is not satisfied by Eisenman's proposition.


Perhaps I'm hopelessly pre-coffee, but the above doesn't doesn't quite mesh with


Off to learn more.
And make coffee.

They were a large community:

Of the annual Review.

The following procedure is to be followed year by year so long as Belial continues to hold sway.

The priests are first to be reviewed in due order, one after another, in respect of the state of their spirits. After them, the Levites shall be similarly reviewed, and in the third place all the laity one after another, in their thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens. The object is that every man in Israel may be made aware of his status in the community of God in the sense of the ideal, eternal society, and that none may be abased below his status nor exalted above his allotted place. All of them will thus be members of a community founded at once upon true values and upon a becoming sense of humility, upon charity and mutual fairness-members of a society truly hallowed, partners in an everlasting communion...
http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/md.htm

They were also secretive:

Of social relations.

This is the rule for all members of the community - that is, for such as have declared their readiness to turn away from all evil and to adhere to all that God in His good pleasure has commanded.

They are to keep apart from the company of the froward.

They are to belong to the community in both doctrinal and an economic sense...
...

He that so commits himself is to keep apart from all froward men that walk in the path of wickedness; for such men are not to be reckoned in the Covenant inasmuch as they have never sought nor studied God's ordinances in order to find out on what more arcane points they may guiltily have gone astray, while in regard to the things which stand patently revealed they have acted high-handedly. They have thus incurred God's angry judgment and caused Him to take vengeance upon them with all the curses threatened in the Covenant and to wreak great judgments upon them that they be finally destroyed without remnant.

No one is to go into water in order to attain the purity of holy men. For men cannot be purified except they repent their evil. God regards as impure all that transgress His word. No one is to have any association with such a man either in work or in goods, lest he incur the penalty of prosecution. Rather is he to keep away from such a man in every respect, for the Scriptures says: 'Keep away from every false thing' [Exodus 23:7]. No member of the community is to abide by the decision of such men in any matter of doctrine or law. He is not to eat or drink of anything that belongs to them nor receive anything from them except for cash, even as sit is written: 'desist from man whose breath is in his nostrils, for as what is he reckoned:' [Isaiah 2:22]. All that are not reckoned in the Covenant must be put aside, and likewise all that they posses. A holy man must not rely on works of vanity, and vanity is what all of them are that have not recognized God's Covenant. All that spurn His word will God blast out of the world. All their actions are as filth before Him, and He regards all their possessions as unclean...

...

Of religious discussion.

No one is to engage in discussion or disputation with men of ill repute; and in the company of froward men everyone is to abstain from talk about (keep hidden) the meaning of the Law [Torah].

With those, however, that have chosen the right path everyone is indeed to discuss matters pertaining to the apprehension (knowledge) of God's truth and of His righteous judgments. The purpose of such discussions is to guide the minds of the members of the community, to give them insight into God's inscrutable wonders and truth, and to bring them to walk blamelessly each with his neighbor in harmony with all that has been revealed to them. For this is the time when 'the way is being prepared in the wilderness', and it behooves them to understand all that is happening. It is also the time when they must needs keep apart from all other men and not turn aside from the way through any form of perversity.

The idea of twenty scruffy Fanatics in a cave is wrong.

And the big rule was "Don't talk about Jesus Club".
 
Last edited:
That's why the evidence for Eisenman's thesis is so unconvincing, is it? The Essenes were keeping shtum!

Not following you Craig.

In about 110 CE Pliny had to torture them, and still they didn't tell him much.

Read Josephus for how these people behave under Roman interrogation. Al Qaeda has nothing on these guys.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom