Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm not!
I'm saying that dejudge claims all the documents associated with the early church actually date from the 2nd century.

I'm trying to understand just what a RTM is, according to Craig B's definition, and wondering if any such person actually posts here.


Thanks, eight bits, for clearing up Carrier's position as a RTM.

My own impression is that there are many more Jesus skeptics here than RTMs, though I could be wrong about that.

I think there are still some who think that anyone who thinks there was an HJ is a Christian of some sort.

There are some who don't want to accept what the Historians are saying because it conflicts with their personal bias.

There is one who has his very own fringe theory about the entire pre-200 CE corpus being fake.

And I think we have one or two fans of Richard Carrier who are a bit more sure about his theory than he is.

Then there's loonies like me who think there was a specific HJ who can be determined by Historians by looking at contemporary documents in the DSS.
 
I think there are still some who think that anyone who thinks there was an HJ is a Christian of some sort.

There are some who don't want to accept what the Historians are saying because it conflicts with their personal bias.

There is one who has his very own fringe theory about the entire pre-200 CE corpus being fake.

And I think we have one or two fans of Richard Carrier who are a bit more sure about his theory than he is.

Then there's loonies like me who think there was a specific HJ who can be determined by Historians by looking at contemporary documents in the DSS.

This is interesting, as there seem to be people with differing standpoints, well obviously there are; but more interestingly, with different starting points. Presumably, some people accept historical method, well, as it is modified for ancient history, which clearly presents its own problems, as evidence is often very weak, and may be indirect, e.g. things like hearsay.

But there seem to be others who disagree with historical method, and prefer another methodology, often unspecified, but then they are coming up with very different findings, for example, that there is no evidence for HJ. Clearly, here the term 'evidence' is being used differently (well, I think this is true).

So these different approaches are somewhat orthogonal to each other, or if you like, they pass each other in the night!

As to mythicists at large, I am not sure if they accept historical method or not; you would think that they might do, if they are going to discuss that period at all. But there is a certain non-explicitness in this regard, but as said already, maybe Carrier will set our minds at rest. I am certainly curious as to what methodology might be used, if not historical method (modified for ancient history).
 
Dejudge appears to also hold that Jesus was never believed to be anything except a divine being of mythical scale; his date for the start of this myth belief seems to be the 2nd c CE.

Please, you do not represent my position and seem incapable of repeating what I write.

My position is extremely clear.

The story of Jesus, that the Jews killed the Son of God thereby causing the Fall of the Temple and the calamities of the Jews was invented sometime in the 2nd century.

People in the 2nd century who believed the story that the Jews killed the Son of God were the first Christians of the Jesus cult.

There was NO cult under the name of Jesus until the 2nd century.
 
Edited by Gaspode: 
Removed breach of rule 12.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Please, you do not represent my position and seem incapable of repeating what I write.

My position is extremely clear.

The story of Jesus, that the Jews killed the Son of God thereby causing the Fall of the Temple and the calamities of the Jews was invented sometime in the 2nd century.

People in the 2nd century who believed the story that the Jews killed the Son of God were the first Christians of the Jesus cult.

There was NO cult under the name of Jesus until the 2nd century.

I missed that part when I read the NT.
 
I missed that part when I read the NT.

You believe the FORGERS of the NT wanted you to know that they invented 1st century authors called Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Jude and Peter?

Please, read other sources of antiquity.

The evidence was given to us on a platter. The Jesus story and cult is a 2nd century invention.

Aristides Apology
The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man.

This is taught in the gospel,........... But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried; and they say that after three days he rose and ascended to heaven. Thereupon these twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and kept showing his greatness with all modesty and uprightness. And hence also those of the present day who believe that preaching are called Christians, and they have become famous.
 
I have never claimed that all the Pauline Corpus was written by a single author so already you are wrong about my position. I have already specifically stated many times that the Pauline Corpus is a product of MULTIPLE authors.

So, your argument would have to be that, independently, several people in the second century and deliberately faked these letters and created a fake persona named "Paul." Alternatively, you could be arguing that they did this in concert as part of a hoax to claim an earlier origin for their cult.

Consider motive. Why would they have gone out of their way to identify with a mythical Jesus, who was put to death by the Romans? Why would they anchor their mythical Christ in Judea, of all places?

On the other hand, it's quite reasonable that later Christian authors of the Deutero-Pauline letters would forge them in the name of a revered church father.

There is also the fact that those letters considered by most scholars to be from the hand of Paul have, as I've previously noted, a highly apocalyptic world view, involving the imminent second coming. Those not considered genuine are concerned with societal relationships. This fits a change in a religion that started out as a doomsday cult, then changed when it became obvious the world wasn't going to end on schedule.

Please, just go and read what I wrote because you obviously have not done so.
Your argument is absurd and without logic. If there were no Churches of the Jesus cult until the 2nd century then there would be no congregations existing pre 70 CE.

Concerning the hilited area: Once again, your insulting and abrasive tone is uncalled for. You can simply say, in the first instance, "I feel you have misread what I wrote because . . ." or in the second instance, "I find your reasoning on this point wrong, because . . ."

As to Christian congregations, from the letters exchanged between Pliny the Younger and Emperor Trajan, we know that Christians were established enough early in the second century to be considered a problem in various provinces of the empire. Also, these letters tell us that the Romans had, by that time made it a policy to put Christians to death if they did not recant their view. So what is more likely, that the cult had appeared earlier and spread by that time, or that it was a brand new phenomenon, but was already considered a problem?

Writing about the same time as Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, in the Annals, relates that Nero blamed the burning of Rome on the Christians. There is strong evidence that it was originally written as Chrestians. However, Tacitus also says their founder, Christ, was put to death by Pontius Pilate. Also, Tertullian complains that detractors of the Christians couldn't even get their name right and called them "Chrestians."
If the passage in the Annals refers to Christians, then Tacitus was asserting they were already in Rome by the time of Nero.

There is no apostle called the Lord's brother in the Gospels and the other Epistles.

Please, read what I wrote. It is obvious that you have not done so.

There is NO apostle named James the Lord's brother in Mark 6.3 and Matt 13.55-57.

My point was that, according to Mark, Jesus had a brother named James. That he might well have become a follower and might have taken over the cult after Jesus died isn't unreasonable.

Do you not know that the Acts of Paul is most likely a forgery? Please get familiar with the forgeries of antiquity.

Acts of Paul was REJECTED by the Church.

. . . (snip) . . .

All writings about Paul and under the name of Paul are fiction or forgeries and were composed no earlier than c 180 CE.

You complain vociferously that I am not reading what you wrote. Here, it is quite obvious you are guilty of exactly what you accuse me of doing. If you will go back and read my post you will find that I said that it was unlikely that people would be making up romances such as the Acts of Paul in the middle of the second century about someone who didn't exist and wasn't mentioned until after CE 180. By the way, what is your basis for choosing that date?
 
...
As to mythicists at large, I am not sure if they accept historical method or not; you would think that they might do, if they are going to discuss that period at all. But there is a certain non-explicitness in this regard, but as said already, maybe Carrier will set our minds at rest. I am certainly curious as to what methodology might be used, if not historical method (modified for ancient history).

I don't think all the Mythicists that I've interacted with reject the Historical Method, a lot of them just have their own "cargo cult" version of how it is supposed to work.

I blame Youtube.
 
So, your argument would have to be that, independently, several people in the second century and deliberately faked these letters and created a fake persona named "Paul." Alternatively, you could be arguing that they did this in concert as part of a hoax to claim an earlier origin for their cult.

Scholars have already deduced that the Pauline Corpus is a compilation of multiple authors. I cannot assume that there was an actual Paul who wrote any of the letters. The Pauline Corpus may have had at least 7 different authors and this was never admitted by the Church or apologetics.

Tim Callahan said:
Consider motive. Why would they have gone out of their way to identify with a mythical Jesus, who was put to death by the Romans? Why would they anchor their mythical Christ in Judea, of all places?

The Pauline letters do not claim Jesus was killed by the Romans. It is stated that the Jews killed Jesus.

It is explained by Apologetics that the reason the Temple fell was because the Jews killed Jesus the Son of God. See Tertullian's Answer to the Jews, Justin's Dialogue with Trypho, Origen's Against Celsus. 1


Tim Callahan said:
There is also the fact that those letters considered by most scholars to be from the hand of Paul have, as I've previously noted, a highly apocalyptic world view, involving the imminent second coming. Those not considered genuine are concerned with societal relationships. This fits a change in a religion that started out as a doomsday cult, then changed when it became obvious the world wasn't going to end on schedule.

There is evidence that the Pauline Corpus was unknown up to 180 CE so what you say is of very little value.

The author of Acts wrote nothing of the Pauline Corpus and showed no awareness of the Pauline Corpus up to two years after the time Paul supposedly arrived in Rome c 62-64 CE.

The author of the Muratorian Canon claimed the Pauline Epistles to Churches were composed AFTER the Revelation of John his predecessor.

Justin Martyr, Aristides and Arnobius all claimed that it was the Twelve disciples who preached the Gospel to the world and dd not acknowledge Paul and the Pauline Corpus.

Irenaeus in "Against Hersies 2.22, claimed or implied Jesus was crucified c 50 CE which makes the entire Pauline Corpus questionable.


Tim Callahan said:
...As to Christian congregations, from the letters exchanged between Pliny the Younger and Emperor Trajan, we know that Christians were established enough early in the second century to be considered a problem in various provinces of the empire. Also, these letters tell us that the Romans had, by that time made it a policy to put Christians to death if they did not recant their view. So what is more likely, that the cult had appeared earlier and spread by that time, or that it was a brand new phenomenon, but was already considered a problem?

Those letters mention nothing about Jesus of Nazareth. That is the problem. You also do not understand that the word "Christian" does not automatically refer to ONLY Christians who believed the Jesus story.

All sorts of cults were called Christians.

Tim Callahan said:
...Writing about the same time as Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, in the Annals, relates that Nero blamed the burning of Rome on the Christians. There is strong evidence that it was originally written as Chrestians. However, Tacitus also says their founder, Christ, was put to death by Pontius Pilate. Also, Tertullian complains that detractors of the Christians couldn't even get their name right and called them "Chrestians."
If the passage in the Annals refers to Christians, then Tacitus was asserting they were already in Rome by the time of Nero.

Tacitus' Annals is a forgery carried out no earlier than the end of the 4th century.

Tacitus Annals 15.44 should have been a very significant piece of evidence to use against those who claim Jesus Christ had not yet come.

Apologetic writers when arguing against the Jews who claimed Jesus the Christ had not yet come never used Tacitus' Annals with Christus.

Even today, people use Tacitus Annals to claim Jesus the Christ came but not one writer of antiquity did so up to the fifth century.

Incredibly, Tacitus' Annals 15.44 was not even used in Chuch History for at least 300 years after it was composed.


Tin Callahan said:
My point was that, according to Mark, Jesus had a brother named James. That he might well have become a follower and might have taken over the cult after Jesus died isn't unreasonable.

We have the stories of Jesus and there is no apostle called James the Lord's brother in all the list of the 12 apostles.
 
Last edited:
Why are you assuming that the Gospels are more authoritative than Paul's letters ?


My position is that stories of Jesus were already composed and circulated in the Roman Empire before the Pauline Corpus were fabricated no earlier than c 180 CE.

I have already known that Aristides, Justin Martyr and Arnobius show no awareness of Paul and the Pauline Corpus.

The Gospels in the Canon have been deduced to be forgeries or false attribution and are not eyewitness account. Please read Bart Ehrman's "Did Jesus Exist?" for more details.

Bart Ehrman also argued that the NT is riddled with discrepancies, contradictions, historical problem and account of Jesus that most likely did not happen.
 
Last edited:
My position is that stories of Jesus were already composed and circulated in the Roman Empire before the Pauline Corpus were fabricated no earlier than c 180 CE.

You're not answering any of my questions.

1) Why are you assuming that the Gospels are more authoritative than Paul's letters ?

2) What's your evidence that the Pauline letters are so late ?

3) Why are you not open to the possibility of being wrong ?

4) How do you explain the birth of Christianity ?

Answering those would go a long way to reestablishing your crippled credibility.
 
This is interesting, as there seem to be people with differing standpoints, well obviously there are; but more interestingly, with different starting points. Presumably, some people accept historical method, well, as it is modified for ancient history, which clearly presents its own problems, as evidence is often very weak, and may be indirect, e.g. things like hearsay.

But there seem to be others who disagree with historical method, and prefer another methodology, often unspecified, but then they are coming up with very different findings, for example, that there is no evidence for HJ. Clearly, here the term 'evidence' is being used differently (well, I think this is true).

So these different approaches are somewhat orthogonal to each other, or if you like, they pass each other in the night!

As to mythicists at large, I am not sure if they accept historical method or not; you would think that they might do, if they are going to discuss that period at all. But there is a certain non-explicitness in this regard, but as said already, maybe Carrier will set our minds at rest. I am certainly curious as to what methodology might be used, if not historical method (modified for ancient history) .

Could you give us an idea of what you mean by the hilited bits?
 
Please, you do not represent my position and seem incapable of repeating what I write.

My position is extremely clear.

The story of Jesus, that the Jews killed the Son of God thereby causing the Fall of the Temple and the calamities of the Jews was invented sometime in the 2nd century.

People in the 2nd century who believed the story that the Jews killed the Son of God were the first Christians of the Jesus cult.

There was NO cult under the name of Jesus until the 2nd century.

Yes, same as I was attempting to convey of your position.
I'm not attacking you, btw.
 
It also indicates that there were Christians prior to 180 AD. Most certainly they had writings, but they were a small sect, and their writings were of no interest to the general public and were therefore not copied in large numbers. But there is a papyrus fragment dated c100-150 AD on palaeographic evidence, Rylands P52, containing words from gJohn 18:31-33.

BZZZ WRONG.

"What I have done is to show that any serious consideration of the window of possible dates for P52 must include dates in the later second and early third centuries. Thus, P52 cannot be used as evidence to silence other debates about the existence (or non-existence) of the Gospel of John in the first half of the second century." (Nongbr, Brent (2005) "The Use and Abuse of P52: Papyrological Pitfalls in the Dating of the Fourth Gospel." Harvard Theological Review 98:24-52.)

In other words the c125 CE date for P52 is more wishful thinking by the apologists and rather then anything in actual reality. Nongbr's research shows P52 should be dated 185 CE +- 60 years. In fact P52 shows another tactic by apologists: choosing the earliest date possible rather then the midpoint with a range.
 
Last edited:
... The Pauline letters do not claim Jesus was killed by the Romans. It is stated that the Jews killed Jesus.
1 Corinthians 2:
7 but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery ... 8 which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
 
BZZZ WRONG ... In other words the c125 CE date for P52 is more wishful thinking by the apologists and rather then anything in actual reality. Nongbr's research shows P52 should be dated 185 CE +- 60 years. In fact P52 shows another tactic by apologists: choosing the earliest date possible rather then the midpoint with a range.
Non-apologists also propose such a date. Are you suggesting that a date of 100-150 AD for one of the Gospel texts somehow supports a supernatural origin for Christianity? BZZ WRONG! We have, after all, evidence in Pliny for the well established existence of at least one Christian community in Bithynia, complete with defectors and deaconesses, near the beginning of this period. So whether the apparent consensus on this date is right or wrong stamps none of the participants in it as apologetic tacticians.

Your argument is not an attractive one, refutation by association. The real apologists like Thiede go for much earlier dates. See http://vridar.org/2013/03/08/new-date-for-that-st-johns-fragment-rylands-library-papyrus-p52/
C.P. Thiede has argued for a first century date for P52. (Papyrologists have generally reacted negatively to Thiede’s general arguments for earlier dating of manuscripts.)
 
Non-apologists also propose such a date. Are you suggesting that a date of 100-150 AD for one of the Gospel texts somehow supports a supernatural origin for Christianity? BZZ WRONG! We have, after all, evidence in Pliny for the well established existence of at least one Christian community in Bithynia, complete with defectors and deaconesses, near the beginning of this period. So whether the apparent consensus on this date is right or wrong stamps none of the participants in it as apologetic tacticians.

Your argument is not an attractive one, refutation by association. The real apologists like Thiede go for much earlier dates. See http://vridar.org/2013/03/08/new-date-for-that-st-johns-fragment-rylands-library-papyrus-p52/

I fell for some of Thiede's work when he said they found a section of gMark at Qumran. I thought it was convincing at the time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom