Total Building Collapse from a Single Column Failure

You keep saying this, but provide absolutely no evidence to prove it.

The floor assemblies were built off site and lifted up by cranes and dropped on to 6 bearing seats each... that's not terribly robust or redundant. This is certainly not what a moment frame would involve.

Have you looked at how these towers were built? And why they used the approach they did?
 
You don't know that. There were reports of a fair amount of rust on the frame.

Surface oxidation? That was in the elevator shafts as evidence of fireproofing fell off or something IIRC.

Those buildings were well maintained. I did a job at an iron workers' shop where they had left over (extra) beams from a retrofit in the Towers a few years prior to 9/11. Biggest *********** things I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot.
 
Surface oxidation? That was in the elevator shafts as evidence of fireproofing fell off or something IIRC.

Those buildings were well maintained. I did a job at an iron workers' shop where they had left over (extra) beams from a retrofit in the Towers a few years prior to 9/11. Biggest *********** things I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot.

I did a store in the below grade mall back in the late '80s I will never forget seeing the column and conduits rising through the space.....frikkin huge.
 
I did a store in the below grade mall back in the late '80s I will never forget seeing the column and conduits rising through the space.....frikkin huge.

Brilliant comment... the bigger they are, the harder the fall.

The towers were very cheesey and it was common knowledge. The design was hated by virtually all architects, the community hated them... They were built cheap and fast like an erector set and got a bunch of deign load reductions from the DOB to make them lighter and cheaper.

How many steel high rises use pre fab floor panels with bar joists attached today? Name a few examples...
 
Brilliant comment... the bigger they are, the harder the fall.

The towers were very cheesey and it was common knowledge. The design was hated by virtually all architects, the community hated them... They were built cheap and fast like an erector set and got a bunch of deign load reductions from the DOB to make them lighter and cheaper.

How many steel high rises use pre fab floor panels with bar joists attached today? Name a few examples...

Biggest columns you'll ever see equals cheap and flimsy... gotcha. :rolleyes:
 
And not for nothin' and as a New Yorker I can tell you you're wrong on everyone hated them. I loved seeing them everyday. Were a great point of reference too when you were practically anywhere in the city. I know and have talked to tons of people who miss them as much as I do.

Like yours, that's my opinion. None of that really matters though since it has nothing to do with single column failure or prosecuting engineers for not designing an indestructible building. Unless now you want to haul people into court for aesthetic reasons?
 
How many steel high rises use pre fab floor panels with bar joists attached today? Name a few examples...

I must have missed something. How does 21st century construction techniques relate to the state of construction techniques used on buildings constructed 40 years ago?
The design of the engine in my Chevy Cruze is quite a lot more advanced than the one in my first car, a 1966 Rambler American. That does not mean American Motors was remiss in the quality of the engines they designed in 1960's.
 
You don't know that. There were reports of a fair amount of rust on the frame.
Which frame? You don't know that. Where are the reports?
Is this the reason you joined A&E? The WTC was about to fail, so the NWO got 19 nuts to attack it?

The WTC would stop aircraft lost in the fog, the ESB failed to stop one. Which is more robust?

Where is the evidence for how weak the WTC was? The WTC shell could stop 200 mph aircraft, and the ESB could not? Is the steel shell of the WTC more robust than the rock on the ESB? Did you see the big hole in the ESB, a whole section was wide open. There is no protective shell, only a facade of stone? Did you do a study on what the WTC shell will stop? There is a study out there, all it takes is research.

Which building will stop the KE impact of 2,000 pounds of TNT in the shape of an aircraft used as a weapon? Which building is safe from an attack by terrorists?
 
Which frame? You don't know that. Where are the reports?

I don't want to argue with you because on 9/11 I feel we have very few differences... however on the "rust on frame" issue I'd play devil's advocate and surmise it's not up to anyone to prove rust may have been a problem, but to prove that it wasn't. The building's exposure to coastal salt air, for 40 years, the lack of galvanizing or other means (like coatings) in the steel frame combined with the architecture with aluminum cladding attached to, and hiding, steel- provide a perfect formula for dissimilar (galvanic) metal corrosion.
Someone said the towers were "well maintained" but I doubt that maintenance involved removal of the entire cladding every decade or so to inspect electrical insulation between cladding and frame even if such a method was employed (it commonly is)
Even if it is, moisture gets between the layers and conducts electricity between them.
Unfortunately my search for actual data on this is stymied by the results being fouled by countless truther sites claiming this was the reason Larry/Bush/Jews/Aliens had to implode the towers.
So in short galvanic corrosion is a guaranteed reality with this mix of materials in that environment, pictures of the construction era show a light coating of rust all over the structure as it went up so we know it was unprotected. (four years in the Navy doing aircraft maintenance on a carrier, as well as living the last 20 years within 100 yds of the ocean, proved to me all ferrous metal corrodes but quick despite your best efforts) They may have provided an electrical insulating method in the attachments, I'd like to see what it was. Most structures that would be at such a risk have a limited design life, everyone knows rust is going to happen, you gamble that it doesn't become a serious issue until the building or structure is obsolete for other reasons, and you aggressively coat (paint) everything you can see and reach.
I'm sure people in the SF Bay Area are loathe to think of it, but the GG bridge is likely a candidate for some serious hidden corrosion. Oh they paint the hell out of it. What they can access. (end to end yearly, IIRC)
In the end I think rust was in no way a factor in the collapses, unless it was REALLY out of hand. It WAS muslims, planes and fires.
However I believe when some of us debunkers take a glaringly obvious fact- that galvanic corrosion in areas with limited access or view, is common and inevitable- and refuse to acknowledge it, we approach truther tactics.

A disclaimer:
If rust WAS a problem, BTW, you'd see evidence of it in the rubble- so maybe it wasn't a problem at all... and maybe this is one of those little sins I think truthers cover up with all their stupidity, like the inferior sprinkler systems or inadequate egress. Just try to investigate it without being repelled by the wall of truther lies- and those who'd have their butts in a sling for allowing rust on the building breath a sigh of relief.
 
Oh and as for that ESB 1945 vs. WTC 2001 thing... the events were so different in every conceivable way (listing them is a thread itself) the only valuable discussion in mentioning them is to remember 1945 ESB updated to 1970 WAS considered by WTC designers- who effectively analyzed it on a bar napkin and took their best guess. It wasn't 2001.

One interesting difference I've never heard (besides mass/speed of planes, building construction, amount of fuel...) was the difference in fuels. Even though there wan't a lot of fuel on the B-25 it was still gasoline, and in mostly empty tanks. Bet it all blew up on impact. The jet fuel on 9/11 poured in and soaked everything, allowing for sustained accelerant effect. So it ignited everything, and that everything burned very hot.
 
Brilliant comment... the bigger they are, the harder the fall.

The towers were very cheesey and it was common knowledge. The design was hated by virtually all architects, the community hated them... They were built cheap and fast like an erector set and got a bunch of deign load reductions from the DOB to make them lighter and cheaper.

How many steel high rises use pre fab floor panels with bar joists attached today? Name a few examples...

You are trying to combine design aesthetics with the building structure.
Actually, a lot of my colleagues liked the towers for their simplicity. Not all architecture needs the foo foo details nor the silliness of a Frank Gehry design. I don't get the value you place on overdesign. The buildings worked as they were designed to and would have for the next century and they not bee run into by aircraft. Purposely adding structure for no reason is just wasteful.
 
Brilliant comment... the bigger they are, the harder the fall.

Really, it's just the opposite. A few thicks columns are more resistant to blast (the plane impact) than a large number of thinner columns.

The towers were very cheesey and it was common knowledge.

No.

The design was hated by virtually all architects, the community hated them...

No.

They were built cheap and fast like an erector set

Yes, that's a hallmark of good engineering.

and got a bunch of deign load reductions from the DOB to make them lighter and cheaper.

I don't know what you're talking about, but the vast majority of the structural segments met the 2001 building code. The majority of the deficiencies from the original design to the modern code are due to advancements in analysis techniques.

How many steel high rises use pre fab floor panels with bar joists attached today? Name a few examples...

Why don't you give your local Vulcraft sales rep a call. They fabricate and sell composite floor joists. Here's an article in Modern Steel that talks about the benefits of composite floor joists and gives examples, one of which is a hi-rise, the other is a nuclear facility.
 
Really, it's just the opposite. A few thicks columns are more resistant to blast (the plane impact) than a large number of thinner columns.

Yet all those that were hit by heavy plane parts seemed to have failed. And they were not that heavy at those elevations either. But the column to column connections were unrestrained.. a bit odd no?

No.

WRONG

No.

WRONG


Yes, that's a hallmark of good engineering.

Only one of them. You seem to think engineers are immune to error
.


I don't know what you're talking about, but the vast majority of the structural segments met the 2001 building code. The majority of the deficiencies from the original design to the modern code are due to advancements in analysis techniques.

Why don't you give your local Vulcraft sales rep a call. They fabricate and sell composite floor joists. Here's an article in Modern Steel that talks about the benefits of composite floor joists and gives examples, one of which is a hi-rise, the other is a nuclear facility.

Why???? The floor system assemblies were a one off design, never used before (or since?)
 
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Why???? The floor system assemblies were a one off design, never used before (or since?)

Composite floor joists are used all the time. I even provided you with the name of a manufacturer who produces them.
 
Composite floor joists are used all the time. I even provided you with the name of a manufacturer who produces them.

I know this is drifting way off topic, but he seems to think that because the floor joists / decking were assembled and then raised into place that it is someone "cheap" To me, it is just good job site coordination.
 
I know this is drifting way off topic, but he seems to think that because the floor joists / decking were assembled and then raised into place that it is someone "cheap" To me, it is just good job site coordination.

It certainly reduces the number of trucks required at the site if concrete is poured elsewhere.
The specific prefab floor design may not have been used elsewhere but I certainly recall seeing prefab concrete floor sections yravelling through town on flatbeds many timrs in the past few decades.
 
It certainly reduces the number of trucks required at the site if concrete is poured elsewhere.
The specific prefab floor design may not have been used elsewhere but I certainly recall seeing prefab concrete floor sections yravelling through town on flatbeds many timrs in the past few decades.

They poured the concrete on the joists after the joists were in place.
 

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