Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Diocletus]

But no, this means nothing, basically all stagers call the police.
They had no urgency; Knox called the police two hours later after she found blood and strange things in the house, open front door feces etc., Rudy's bloody footprints, in the corridoor, she had already very good reasons to check the house.
Instead she waited and waited.

She did not even call Meredith beyound the 16 seconds and four second calls on her phones (on one of them she only tried once).

Knox and Sollecito had no urgency.
Knox deplayed no urgency before the locked door.
Inconsistency is obvious your attempts to deny it are desperate and irrational.

Really, Knox's first mistake was ever travelling to Italy in the first place, a country apparently inhabited mostly by low-functioning bureaucrats, perverts, fanaticists and sophists.

 

[acbytesla]

But no, this means nothing, basically all stagers call the police.
They had no urgency; Knox called the police two hours later after she found blood and strange things in the house, open front door feces etc., Rudy's bloody footprints, in the corridoor, she had already very good reasons to check the house.
Instead she waited and waited.

She did not even call Meredith beyound the 16 seconds and four second calls on her phones (on one of them she only tried once).

Knox and Sollecito had no urgency.
Knox deplayed no urgency before the locked door.
Inconsistency is obvious your attempts to deny it are desperate and irrational.

Sorry, you are just choosing to read it this way. It can be read differently by a thousand different people. None of this is proof, it is just bias and imaginative speculation. There is no staging. There is no motive, there is no evidence.

 

[Grinder]

Autopsy report; Knox's lies; Sollecito's lies; luminol footprints; bathmat print; phisical evidence of staged burglary; cell phone records; testimonies of Filomena, Capezzali, Monachia; knife DNA: bra clasp DNA; mixed DNA on blood drops and luminol stains; Knpox's calunnia...

These that I just listed are the actual areas of evidence.

You above list instead is just a list of facts, useful for building conjecture. They are just details, they are very small accessories, they only help suggesting a context, a scenario, once the evidence has been established. All little elements except the last point (Knox's behaviour before Meredith's door) which belongs to the list of evidence of lying, this is one of the many points which show a factual contradiction (a lie) in Knox's account.

Progress. You dropped Curatolo. Good, we are moving in the right direction.

 

[Bill Williams]

But no, this means nothing, basically all stagers call the police.
They had no urgency; Knox called the police two hours later after she found blood and strange things in the house, open front door feces etc., Rudy's bloody footprints, in the corridoor, she had already very good reasons to check the house.
Instead she waited and waited.

She did not even call Meredith beyound the 16 seconds and four second calls on her phones (on one of them she only tried once).

Knox and Sollecito had no urgency.
Knox deplayed no urgency before the locked door.
Inconsistency is obvious your attempts to deny it are desperate and irrational.

Sorry, you are just choosing to read it this way. It can be read differently by a thousand different people. None of this is proof, it is just bias and imaginative speculation. There is no staging. There is no motive, there is no evidence.

Nothing says confirmation bias like "Machiavelli"!

All stagers call police? What he really meant was that all stagers named Amanda who come from Seattle have been know to call police. Fact is all stagers do NOT call police.

And then the confirmation bias gets ramped up as Machiavelli adds elements to this confirmation bias. It's not just that all stagers call police, it's that all stagers who call police who also do not show "urgency" in those calls show themselves all the more to be guilty.

Because it's not just the act of calling that is important, now it's the assessment of their urgency once police arrive, even if they are postal police.

So far, then, this also leaves Battistielli and the other postal police person as suspects, because they, also, did not show urgency.

But wait, there's more. If Knox and Sollecito had been manipulative enough to realize that "urgency" was the key, they would have shown that just to fake a sense of panic...

.... THEN what would Machiavelli have said?

AK and RS did not show sincerity in their urgency around the fact that they'd called the police, something all stagers from Seattle named Amanda have been proven to do.

Aside from all this, note that even Machiavelli has given up on this earliest so-called incriminating factoid that RS called the police AFTER the arrival of the postal police!!!!! Cripes, even Judge Massei in convicting them in 2009 gave up on that factoid!

This is the engine of confirmation bias. And then if Knox had shown sincerity in her ersatz urgency in calling the police, Machiavelli, using his theatre training, would then say - "That's proof she's an actress!"

Confirmation bias is nothing if not able to deal with these sorts of things. Knox is guilty therefore......

This is nice work if you can get it.

 

[Bill Williams]

The broken window was the most exposed to sight, the closest to the road and the most illuminated (as well as the less easy one to climb in).

We've been around THIS block 1000 times.

The window off the balcony, on the other side of the cottage, was the most exposed to the road and the most well lit, as the curvature of the road shows, and as the street lamp directly across from it shows.

You just cannot repeat stuff like this when it has been long shown false.

 

[christianahannah]

Hiya Strozzi,
I'd read of what Amanda Knox had bought by reading her book "Waiting to Be Heard",
and yet people, especially Guilters, still call it Sexy Underwear!
Sure...

Heya Supernaut,
I'd recently read your post (here or elsewhere?-I forget!)
where-in you were the 1st to mention that I've ever read that surely Meredith would have locked her bedroom door when headin' over to Robyn's that night. Good point!
RW

The locking of Meredith's door and the habits of the other flatmates is given by Amanda in her email home.

...when i entered i called out if anyone was
there, but no one responded and i assumed that if anyone was there,
they were still asleep. lauras door was open which meant she wasnt
home, and filomenas door was also closed. my door was open like always
and meredith door was closed, which to me weant she was sleeping...

From her email Amanda says both her and Laura's doors were open upon entering the cottage. Both Amanda and Laura were away for the night and Amanda had her rent money in a drawer (like Meredith). I don't know about Laura's rent money.

Filomena's and Meredith's doors were closed. Meredith's door being closed to Amanda meant she was sleeping. One could imply that Meredith's door was left open most other times but that is not certain. Was it normal for Filomena's door to be closed?

Was Amanda asked or has she written about the state of Meredith's door after Meredith had left on November 1 and while Amanda and Raffaele were still there?

 

[andreajo]

But no, this means nothing, basically all stagers call the police.

Do you have a source for this sweeping assertion? If they are stagers, must they call the police as part of the act?

However, if they are not stagers, then calling the police might show urgency.

They had no urgency; Knox called the police two hours later after she found blood and strange things in the house, open front door feces etc., Rudy's bloody footprints, in the corridoor, she had already very good reasons to check the house.
Instead she waited and waited.

If she did not know what was behind the door, she showed a reasonable level of urgency. You don't go breaking down your roommate's door unless you are pretty sure something is horribly wrong. She checked out some leads by calling Meredith's phones and checking with roommates. She sought advice from her mom and brought Raffaele back to the cottage with her for some moral support. We can't know how she was feeling, but none of this behavior contraindicates anxiety, concern, and urgency that is proportional to a broken window, a small amount of blood, and a locked door.

She did not even call Meredith beyound the 16 seconds and four second calls on her phones (on one of them she only tried once).

Knox and Sollecito had no urgency.
Knox deplayed no urgency before the locked door.
Inconsistency is obvious your attempts to deny it are desperate and irrational.

I don't deny apparent inconsistency. I do deny your ability to know what AK might or might not have been feeling at the time. I also deny that the inconsistency that you have spotted in writings and testimony is proof of AK lying, since there are many explanations related to human perception and memory that would explain discrepancies in accounts of the events at the cottage that day.

I assure you that I am not feeling at all desperate this morning. I expect that I am occasionally irrational, but as my husband says, "If you were irrational, how would you know?"

 

[Grinder]

But no, this means nothing, basically all stagers call the police.

On what do you base that idea? If the statistics were actually available, I would bet that most crimes involving staging are not reported by the stager.

They had no urgency; Knox called the police two hours later after she found blood and strange things in the house, open front door feces etc., Rudy's bloody footprints, in the corridoor, she had already very good reasons to check the house. Instead she waited and waited.

And the PP with the knowledge that Meredith's phone had been tossed, didn't break the door down. Filomena's friends that arrived before she did, didn't break the door down.

The evidence is clear that the scene wasn't as obviously a horrible situation as you and the PGP want to portray it as.

She did not even call Meredith beyound the 16 seconds and four second calls on her phones (on one of them she only tried once).

Really, so what. The way cell phones work is that the callers ID is left on the phone. Meredith would have known that she had been called and could call back.

Knox and Sollecito had no urgency.
Knox deplayed no urgency before the locked door.
Inconsistency is obvious your attempts to deny it are desperate and irrational.

Calling Filomena, her mother, Raf's sister and the police showed no urgency?

 

[Grinder]

Oh, you mean the part where they said that the statements couldn't be used because Knox had no lawyer and the statements weren't spontaneous?

I mean, the statements would have been usable if either (i) Knox had a lawyer present, or (ii) the statements were spontaneous. But they weren't.

Not only did they violate Italy's laws on interrogations, but they also violated the ECHR, as we will find out.

I don't believe that the statements ever could be used spontaneous or not. As I have understood it, statements made by a person can't be used against them only others. They can't make statements without an attorney, at least not to anyone but a judge.

Certainly I entertain the reality that I may have that wrong.

 

[NancyS]

The broken window was the most exposed to sight, the closest to the road and the most illuminated (as well as the less easy one to climb in).

So nobody is going to choose to break this window after someone has been murdered - and nobody would use this window to try and stage a crime, especially when Amanda already knew that there was a problem with the lock on the main door.

Do you think Amanda really said "hey Rafaelle, let's throw a rock through this window - it's lovely and illuminated and everyone can see from outside - and you would need to be a young fit basketball player to climb this"

A person would only choose to throw a rock through this window, if they were outside and could see that nobody was around and knew that they could run off if anyone noticed. If you've just killed someone, you're not going to chance someone noticing you throwing a rock through the window and someone calling the police to the house.

 

[Dan O.]

You above list instead is just a list of facts, useful for building conjecture. They are just details, they are very small accessories, they only help suggesting a context, a scenario, once the evidence has been established. All little elements except the last point (Knox's behaviour before Meredith's door) which belongs to the list of evidence of lying, this is one of the many points which show a factual contradiction (a lie) in Knox's account.

I posted a list too. It's back on page 53 of this thread. Are you ever going to find the time to look at that list?

 

[acbytesla]

Nothing says confirmation bias like "Machiavelli"!

All stagers call police? What he really meant was that all stagers named Amanda who come from Seattle have been know to call police. Fact is all stagers do NOT call police.

And then the confirmation bias gets ramped up as Machiavelli adds elements to this confirmation bias. It's not just that all stagers call police, it's that all stagers who call police who also do not show "urgency" in those calls show themselves all the more to be guilty.

Because it's not just the act of calling that is important, now it's the assessment of their urgency once police arrive, even if they are postal police.

So far, then, this also leaves Battistielli and the other postal police person as suspects, because they, also, did not show urgency.

But wait, there's more. If Knox and Sollecito had been manipulative enough to realize that "urgency" was the key, they would have shown that just to fake a sense of panic...

.... THEN what would Machiavelli have said?

AK and RS did not show sincerity in their urgency around the fact that they'd called the police, something all stagers from Seattle named Amanda have been proven to do.

Aside from all this, note that even Machiavelli has given up on this earliest so-called incriminating factoid that RS called the police AFTER the arrival of the postal police!!!!! Cripes, even Judge Massei in convicting them in 2009 gave up on that factoid!

This is the engine of confirmation bias. And then if Knox had shown sincerity in her ersatz urgency in calling the police, Machiavelli, using his theatre training, would then say - "That's proof she's an actress!"

Confirmation bias is nothing if not able to deal with these sorts of things. Knox is guilty therefore......

This is nice work if you can get it.

This is one of those damned if they do and damned if they don't sort of scenario. It's like when your house makes strange noises and on one hand you want investigate and on the other hand you just know it is is nothing.

Who's to say what is going through Amanda's mind. She has only known Meredith for a month. How can she be sure of anything? She could be thinking this is strange. Meredith doesn't answer the phone and the house is broken in and I can't reach her. It's possible that Meredith got drunk last night and crashed at one of her British friend's flat and was hung over and her phone was on vibrate. Yes it's strange that she locked the door, but so what? She's not home. Maybe they went out and she met a guy and she doesn't want to be disturbed. Something feels wrong..but what is it? I don't want to look like a fool or embarrass Meredith if she's making that walk of shame home from a hot night with some Italian guy.

Any caution might result from thinking they are making a big ado about nothing. In a way, if Amanda is being inconsistent, it is actually the kind of inconsistency you would expect in this situation.

Mach's attempt to put some kind of nefarious spin on the situation, is because they have nothing. No real evidence, just speculative nonsense.

 

[Grinder]

Autopsy report; Knox's lies; Sollecito's lies; luminol footprints; bathmat print; phisical evidence of staged burglary; cell phone records; testimonies of Filomena, Capezzali, Monachia; knife DNA: bra clasp DNA; mixed DNA on blood drops and luminol stains; Knpox's calunnia...

These that I just listed are the actual areas of evidence.

Let's pare away a few more.

The autopsy report contains no evidence against either of the kids. Even if we accept that there must have been more than one killer, it doesn't mean that Rudy killed her with Amanda or Raf involved. Multiple killers opens up the possibility to thousands of people in Perugia - most likely people that Rudy knew well.

The autopsy showed that Meredith had not passed food to her duodenum which means she died far earlier than 11:30. Please explain.

Knox and Raf lies depends on them being guilty. Circular reasoning.

Luminol prints not proven to be blood and don't MATCH any reference print. Those could be from anytime and left by Laura or Filomena or almost any previous tenant.

Bathmat print doesn't match Raf. Take 10 similar feet and see if people would be sure whose it was. Being compatible isn't enough and it doesn't have to be Raf's or Rudy's, it could be someone else s.

Cell phone records ?????

testimonies of Filomena, Capezzali, Monachia - not one said anything that put Amanda at the scene or in any way implicated either her or Raf.

knife DNA: bra clasp DNA; mixed DNA on blood drops well if the DNA on those was credible then yes that would be damning evidence.

Given the way the drops were collect off the sink shared with Amanda there was almost no way that her DNA wouldn't also be there.

Knpox's calunnia... Please explain in detail what the police knew to be correct BEFORE Amanda made her statement at 1:45.

 

[christianahannah]

On what do you base that idea? If the statistics were actually available, I would bet that most crimes involving staging are not reported by the stager.



And the PP with the knowledge that Meredith's phone had been tossed, didn't break the door down. Filomena's friends that arrived before she did, didn't break the door down.

The evidence is clear that the scene wasn't as obviously a horrible situation as you and the PGP want to portray it as.



Really, so what. The way cell phones work is that the callers ID is left on the phone. Meredith would have known that she had been called and could call back.



Calling Filomena, her mother, Raf's sister and the police showed no urgency?

The urgency may have been undermined because Amanda's actions/statements may have been inconsistent from the point where she entered the cottage that morning to the discovery of Meredith's body later that day. This inconsistency may be the reason the police became suspicious of her.

For example in the email she writes that Meredith's door being closed meant Meredith was probably sleeping. When Amanda gradually becomes uncomfortable about the condition of the cottage (while showering, drying her hair, etc.) she writes she got the mop and left. Did she knock on Meredith's or Filomena's doors or try to open both before leaving to see if they were in their rooms, especially if a closed door might mean Meredith was sleeping (not sure what a closed Filomena's door might mean)?

 

[Grinder]

So nobody is going to choose to break this window after someone has been murdered - and nobody would use this window to try and stage a crime, especially when Amanda already knew that there was a problem with the lock on the main door.

Do you think Amanda really said "hey Rafaelle, let's throw a rock through this window - it's lovely and illuminated and everyone can see from outside - and you would need to be a young fit basketball player to climb this"

A person would only choose to throw a rock through this window, if they were outside and could see that nobody was around and knew that they could run off if anyone noticed. If you've just killed someone, you're not going to chance someone noticing you throwing a rock through the window and someone calling the police to the house.

I have never believed that Filomena shut her shutters because the window appeared to the residents as too high to be of concern. That doesn't mean Rudy couldn't have made up and in but it does make the choice less likely. Also, they could have just left the balcony door unlocked, which I'm sure occurred on more than one occasion.

In addition since the front door had its problems, they could have just left that issue as the method of entry.

 

[Grinder]

The urgency may have been undermined because Amanda's actions/statements may have been inconsistent from the point where she entered the cottage that morning to the discovery of Meredith's body later that day. This inconsistency may be the reason the police became suspicious of her.

For example in the email she writes that Meredith's door being closed meant Meredith was probably sleeping. When Amanda gradually becomes uncomfortable about the condition of the cottage (while showering, drying her hair, etc.) she writes she got the mop and left. Did she knock on Meredith's or Filomena's doors or try to open both before leaving to see if they were in their rooms, especially if a closed door might mean Meredith was sleeping (not sure what a closed Filomena's door might mean)?

I have no idea what you mean by the inconsistency.

Filomena had announced she would not be home that night.

 

[Supernaut]

re. Formica's certitude that Meredith "never locks her door";

Did she actually say this? Where and when? In actual court testimony? or is it just, like so much else, apocryphal/hearsay?

If she did, the only way she'd know, that I can see, is if she was in the habit of regularly trying her flat-mates' doors. Why would she be doing that?

Equally, I suppose one could ask how Amanda was certain she didn't, although given she and Meredith were peers, were likely sharing their stuff with each other, and their doors were next to each other, it would be less surprising.

ETA - I suppose Formica might actually have been home when Meredith was going out and actually seen her not locking her door a few times. Hard to see how it could have often enough to state categorically that "she never locks her door", though.

 

[Dan O.]

She did not even call Meredith beyound the 16 seconds and four second calls on her phones (on one of them she only tried once).

How many times should Amanda dial a number that she just got verbally from Filomena, has no way to verify that she copied the number correctly and immideatly gave a message in Italian the first time she called it?

What's the purpose of continuously calling a cell number? With the old land lines this was usefull because someone could be out of the house at the time you called and not know that there was a call when they returned. But modern phones and all cell phones have notification for missed calls. Two calls are enough to indicate that the call is important. If the phone were ringing like with the first call, it make sense to call again because the person might be sleeping or distracted and you might be able to wake them up. But when the call goes straight to voice mail as with the second call to Meredith's UK phone, there's no point to calling again because the phone is either off, disconnected from the network or busy and you can only wait for the person on the other end to change that condition. When the phone is availible for calls it will automatically notify the owner of the missed call.

It's amazing how many PGP echo that same talking point. Is there not one of them that knows how modern phones work that can explain it to the others?

 

[acbytesla]

What's absurd about Machiavelli's reasoning is that it is all backwards and depends on a confirmation of guilt and a willingness to interpret everything through that filter of guilt. Nobody actually knew what was behind Meredith's locked door. I mean it is easy to say after you know that Meredith is dead in that room that you should knock the door down. But nobody knows.

If Amanda and Raffaele had actually killed Meredith and they wanted to control everything, they could have easily called the police and say they had come up and found Meredith murdered in her bedroom. This would effectively contaminated Meredith's bedroom with their presence as they had gone into the bedroom.

If they were trying to control the discovery of Meredith's body, they sure were doing a lousy job of it.

Never the less, there is no tie to Rudy by Amanda or Raffaele. At least, not the kind of tie that would allow three people to conspire and murder a fourth. Rudy's palm print and many shoe prints are in Meredith's blood. But you can't find any evidence of either Amanda or Raffaele in that room.

There is a difference between an acquaintance, a pal, a friend and a best friend. A person is likely to do little for an acquaintance, You might borrow or lend a tool to a pal. You play ball with friends and you would be a character witness for a friend and a best friend you would help bury the body.

Rudy was none of these things to Raffaele and barely an acquaintance to Amanda. Even Raffaele's and Amanda's relationship might not qualify as anything more than a week long hookup at this point.

There is nothing that would make you think that these 3 would have done this together. The fact that Amanda and Raffaele never turned on each other is amazing. This alone really confirms my belief that Amanda and Raffaele had nothing to do with Meredith's murder.

 

[acbytesla]

How many times should Amanda dial a number that she just got verbally from Filomena, has no way to verify that she copied the number correctly and immideatly gave a message in Italian the first time she called it?

What's the purpose of continuously calling a cell number? With the old land lines this was usefull because someone could be out of the house at the time you called and not know that there was a call when they returned. But modern phones and all cell phones have notification for missed calls. Two calls are enough to indicate that the call is important. If the phone were ringing like with the first call, it make sense to call again because the person might be sleeping or distracted and you might be able to wake them up. But when the call goes straight to voice mail as with the second call to Meredith's UK phone, there's no point to calling again because the phone is either off, disconnected from the network or busy and you can only wait for the person on the other end to change that condition. When the phone is availible for calls it will automatically notify the owner of the missed call.

It's amazing how many PGP echo that same talking point. Is there not one of them that knows how modern phones work that can explain it to the others?

Yea Doh!!!!, Also considering that most people have their cell phones on their person they almost always pick up before the second ring. It's not like they have to run from across the house to answer the phone. Even people in the bath tub will pick up their cell phone and talk on it while they are soaking.