Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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Our atmosphere used to have more oxygen...gasp! gasp!...i cant breathe! Wheez! Now its more nitrogen. (oxygen levels have substantially decrease since around the 20th century, i believe. SubSTANtially! Gasp!)Both nitrogen and oxygen are lighter than CO2. So what`s the problem? Why doesnt CO2 then get forced back to land/oceans, and further helped by the rain cycle to knock it harmlessly out of the sky? Just curious. Not a global warming expert...even though you`d think with more industrialized countries spewing gasses like an increasing number of volcanoes...you`d think SOMEthing would be changing...either warming or cooling. However, regarding the last sentence...if it ia debatable if it leads to warming or cooling, that mean it could fall in the middle somewhere, maybe, and cause no change at all.
Wouldnt you love to hear Al Gore so succinctly explain it to us?

The atmosphere is a gas, that's one of the things a gas tends to do. Although it does have layers, the CO2 is 'well mixed' with the rest of the gases we breathe. The oceans are absorbing CO2 at a huge rate, otherwise we would have far more CO2 to breathe in. The fact is, once it's up there, it tends to stay there. Measurements confirm this, the concentration is relentlessly increasing.
 
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I did not understand how comes spectral analysis of the IR radiation pointing towards the earth had a typical spectrum of the GHG. I understood this radiation is a result of the atmosphere temperature rise after radiation energy absorption by the GHG with resulting heat build up and thus it's a secondary event to the specific radiation (http://www.skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-global-warming-intermediate.htm). I also expect, as result of the GW, that overall IR radiation outbound the planet will increase with decline only in the typical GHG wavelengths. This is a characteristic compounded spectral image that was not mentioned as such. I understood that cloud feedback is important factor in forecasts and is not well understood yet. The same can be said on the whole sensitivity issue (you DC mentioned it and I found more on it). In a paper in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society 2008 by Spencer RW (abstract given in comment 3 at http://www.skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-global-warming-intermediate.htm), sensitivity of nature to GHG is argued to may well be so low that only an increase of 0.50c in global temperature would be predicted until 2100. Also there exist web sites such as http://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?ide=3, where contradicting arguments are given (I know they might be unreliable such as creationists sophisticated/scientific looking web sites, but is it (unreliable)?). I also found that in several instances A-CO2 is assumed a priory to create GW and then "proven" empirically to do so (something like "fallacy of the converse")

...

And this way is how 12 posts become 20,000 to 40,000 :rolleyes:

You're doing exactly what denialists do:

You juggle with words -you have a knack to it- in a way it's not clear what you do understand and what you don't. From your unclear paragraph you seem to think that when GHGs "heat up" by getting specific longwave radiations the whole result is the air increasing its content of sensible heat. That's like thinking that a spring heats up when it's stretched so you can't understand why it springs back. So, for you, in order to be fair, the thing is "greenhouse gases absorb certain infrared radiations going upwards and re-radiate them in all directions, roughly half of them downwards". You have to learn it -retain the information-, no matter you don't understand it, and then patiently study the physics behind it -some modicum of quantum theory needed-. I let my friends to point you to the right internet resources to learn that. As a consequence there's on-surface information about the effect of greenhouse gases -man made or not- in the atmosphere.

But the point is if I were a denialist -and you can bet I would be one of the best darn denialists that these threads have ever seen- I would argue that such spectrum is not necessarily a sign of a process of warming but the way equilibrium is reached. Regrettably for such argumentation there's not only the evolution of scientific evidence -historical spectra, among so many items- but several satellites measuring on real time the energy flux at the top of the atmosphere and the awful truth is that not all the energy that is coming down is bouncing back into space, an estimate of 0.6 Wm-2 is staying down when in fact 0.12 Wm-2 should be going out. The error bands of these estimations alone, conservatively estimated, with conservatively meaning the base is "it's neither warming nor cooling" allow a probability of 2 or 3% against GW. And before you get some wrong conclusion, no, this is just a tiny part of the process to determine that very conservative 95% you're so "sceptic" about.

Back to the denialist-like trail of yours, later in your post, you scouted within the comment section of the SkSc post for cherries to pick in favour of your pre-conceived state of mind and took something in comment #3 and you ascribed it to a paper. Well, you forgot to read the rest of the comments and you failed to read the paper and tell where the 0.5°C by 2100 is. The bottom line is you're "sceptic" and you have Quietman (author of #3, who could even be yourself) to back you.

But your blatant use of fallacious means doesn't stop in cherry picking and confirmation bias on-steroids. You had to resort also to rhetorics and make a strawman by using another fallacy as straw, as we can get from your caricaturization of the supposed use of converse error. It looks like you haven't moved one inch from the positions you brag about here three year ago, in spite of the calm and weighted look you try to give to your posts.
 
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Well, of course!

There's such a thing as global warming - and just as equally, there's the opposite global cooling which we hear less about these days despite it being all the rage in the 1960's.

The question is:- are humans responsible and for the life of me - I've yet to see a convincing argument laid out by anybody. Co2 levels seemed a good hook to hang things on for a while but then..... oh no.... it's really that Methane stuff that cows fart all the time (despite them breathing out at least ten times as much than farting ) No doubt about it - it's all down to those evil oil companies and greedy bankers - who as we all know are directly responsible for the world's ills.

Where I'm sitting here in Rickmansworth, England right now is a pleasant rolling pastural view (if you block out the flipping M25!) at the start of The Chiltern Hills. 12,000 years ago there was a kilometre of ice over the area, then later during the next several millenia vast braids of gravel deltas flowed out from the melting ice sheets.

No one has the slightest idea what caused the cooling or the later warm up - to ignore these entirely natural occurences while considering modern happenings amounts to little more than self aggrandisement - on a grand scale - to make us humans far more important than we really are.
 
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There's such a thing as global warming - and just as equally, there's the opposite global cooling which we hear less about these days despite it being all the rage in the 1960's.
Even in the 70s, when a single scientist's speculation about the imminence of the next period glaciation got a lot of coverage in the press, the vast majority of climatologists were predicting warming.

The question is:- are humans responsible and for the life of me - I've yet to see a convincing argument laid out by anybody.
Then you haven't been looking very hard. Here's a good summary from The Royal Society:

http://royalsociety.org/policy/publications/2010/climate-change-summary-science/

Co2 levels seemed a good hook to hang things on for a while but then..... oh no.... it's really that Methane stuff that cows fart all the time
The rise in atmospheric methane (mostly being released from the ground as permafrost thaws and from the seas as they warm) is in addition to the rise in CO2 caused by burning fossil fuel. Both cause warming.

No one has the slightest idea what caused the cooling or the later warm up
Climatologists know exactly what caused them, as does anyone who bothers to read what they've discovered. Start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovich_cycles

to ignore these entirely natural occurences while considering modern happenings amounts to little more than self aggrandisement - on a grand scale - to make us humans far more important than we really are.
And forest fires and lung cancer are entirely natural occurrences, so considering the possibility that many instances of both might be caused by cigarettes is presumably also self aggrandisement.
 
There's such a thing as global warming - and just as equally, there's the opposite global cooling which we hear less about these days despite it being all the rage in the 1960's.

That's false. Use the forum search engine to find it explained.

The question is:- are humans responsible and for the life of me - I've yet to see a convincing argument laid out by anybody. Co2 levels seemed a good hook to hang things on for a while but then..... oh no.... it's really that Methane stuff that cows fart all the time (despite them breathing out at least ten times as much than farting ) No doubt about it - it's all down to those evil oil companies and greedy bankers - who as we all know are directly responsible for the world's ills.

You have no idea how things work, including cows. And knowing that I cannot imagine how you may think you can jump to the ethical implications of that.

Where I'm sitting here in Rickmansworth, England right now is a pleasant rolling pastural view (if you block out the flipping M25!) at the start of The Chiltern Hills. 12,000 years ago there was a kilometre of ice over the area, then later during the next several millenia vast braids of gravel deltas flowed out from the melting ice sheets.

Nice story. Now there is an equivalent to a 1.40 metre thick layer of human produced CO2 all around the planet that is fortunately thoroughly mixed in the atmosphere (otherwise global warming deniers will be suffocated).

No one has the slightest idea what caused the cooling or the later warm up - to ignore these entirely natural occurences while considering modern happenings amounts to little more than self aggrandisement - on a grand scale - to make us humans far more important than we really are.

Not only scientists have "idea", even most of people participating in this thread pretty much have it. And self aggrandisement always has been directly proportional to ignorance, as it is shown by the endless parade of verborrheic parachutists coming to this thread to explain us how the world works.
 
Our atmosphere used to have more oxygen...gasp! gasp!...i cant breathe! Wheez! Now its more nitrogen. (oxygen levels have substantially decrease since around the 20th century, i believe. SubSTANtially! Gasp!)Both nitrogen and oxygen are lighter than CO2. So what`s the problem? Why doesnt CO2 then get forced back to land/oceans, and further helped by the rain cycle to knock it harmlessly out of the sky? Just curious. Not a global warming expert...even though you`d think with more industrialized countries spewing gasses like an increasing number of volcanoes...you`d think SOMEthing would be changing...either warming or cooling. However, regarding the last sentence...if it ia debatable if it leads to warming or cooling, that mean it could fall in the middle somewhere, maybe, and cause no change at all.
Wouldnt you love to hear Al Gore so succinctly explain it to us?

You want that any of us explains why the caricature you wrote is just a caricature? Well: it's a caricature! I only needed the same approach Justice Potter Stewart used regarding pornography.

We gave you feedback when your post #511 and you haven't replied yet. Is this more of the same? Sort of a personal version of Knock, Knock, Ginger?
 
My question is simple. If there is a "good" (intellectually satisfying) answer to it, it should be able to be outlined concisely and painlessly. If not, there's a problem there. I will explain than give examples. I did not ask you to make a scientific representation for my sake to prove that there is methodology, data and what their quality and conclusions are. In principle I'll take your word for it that it was scientifically satisfied. The compelling evidence I asked for was the one that convinced the scientists put in general terms: what was the methodology used and how strong the data were (in simple terms). Here are some examples: "Give me compelling evidence that GW exist". Answer: outline of example methodologies of measurements, links to 2-3 graphs. "Give me compelling evidence that big portion of the carbon in the atmosphere is form fossil burning origin". Answer: Carbon isotope ratios (some details) in plants, atmosphere etc. is typical to those of fossil fuel and is different from that of other origins (a detail). And I can of course give you more which will cover the entire GW claim. See? If the scientific area is well established this does not have to take 40K posts or even 12 scientific articles to out line a simple explanation. The longer/complicated and harder to put in simple terms, the weaker (rule of thumb of course with rare exceptions though). In my fields, if asked such a question by a layman, I cannot think of a corroborated hypothesis I cannot explain reasonably in few relaxed sentences (half a page tops).Now, I came here with a simple question about the A. Can you or can't you give me concise few sentences of explanation (I don't want the proofs by "materials and methods" and data quality and analysis, I'll take your word for it). Go back, see those posters' reactions and you might understand the eyebrow raising here (understatement).
I volunteer in popularization of science mainly to youth (16-18). My main show is a 12 (x1.5h) sessions presentation that this year is called "nanotechnology and life". As part of my vision I dedicate last two sessions to, critical thinking, politics in science, argumentation and debating. My last interaction in the current forum gave me new, high quality material and I PrtScned it to my presentation, can't wait for the 11th session (Feb 2014) to present "empirical hot evidence from the field concerning a high profile world mixed scientific-political debate". Oh, lastly but most importantly, regarding A.: I read before and also in the last few days from the links I've been sent to. I do still have a problem as they all show correlations (no causation) and words like "most likely" (with many possible, probable mechanisms, one place even spoke quantitatively in terms of 95% confidence level, but how did they get to it?). Can you (and are you willing) to give me something stronger. And very importantly, is there, what I call "theoretical feasibility study" in which, on paper, the A connection can be shown. Meaning something like: so much human-caused-carbon is released to atmosphere, ergo so much CO2 (e.g.) concentration per time is built up, thus per the GHG thermodynamic theory so much heat is generated per some assumed (expected) forcing, thus so much temperature rise is expected and how it agrees with observed data. ?

Sorry but whatever you wanted to say was buried under a great Wall'o'Text.
 
There's such a thing as global warming - and just as equally, there's the opposite global cooling which we hear less about these days despite it being all the rage in the 1960's.

The question is:- are humans responsible and for the life of me - I've yet to see a convincing argument laid out by anybody. Co2 levels seemed a good hook to hang things on for a while but then..... oh no.... it's really that Methane stuff that cows fart all the time (despite them breathing out at least ten times as much than farting ) No doubt about it - it's all down to those evil oil companies and greedy bankers - who as we all know are directly responsible for the world's ills.

Where I'm sitting here in Rickmansworth, England right now is a pleasant rolling pastural view (if you block out the flipping M25!) at the start of The Chiltern Hills. 12,000 years ago there was a kilometre of ice over the area, then later during the next several millenia vast braids of gravel deltas flowed out from the melting ice sheets.

I haven't No one has the slightest idea what caused the cooling or the later warm up - to ignore these entirely natural occurences while considering modern happenings amounts to little more than self aggrandisement - on a grand scale - to make us humans far more important than we really are.

FTFY
 
There's such a thing as global warming - and just as equally, there's the opposite global cooling which we hear less about these days despite it being all the rage in the 1960's.

The question is:- are humans responsible and for the life of me - I've yet to see a convincing argument laid out by anybody. Co2 levels seemed a good hook to hang things on for a while but then..... oh no.... it's really that Methane stuff that cows fart all the time (despite them breathing out at least ten times as much than farting ) No doubt about it - it's all down to those evil oil companies and greedy bankers - who as we all know are directly responsible for the world's ills.

Where I'm sitting here in Rickmansworth, England right now is a pleasant rolling pastural view (if you block out the flipping M25!) at the start of The Chiltern Hills. 12,000 years ago there was a kilometre of ice over the area, then later during the next several millenia vast braids of gravel deltas flowed out from the melting ice sheets.

No one has the slightest idea what caused the cooling or the later warm up - to ignore these entirely natural occurences while considering modern happenings amounts to little more than self aggrandisement - on a grand scale - to make us humans far more important than we really are.

lol, you are so wrong, and you have fallen for the usual denier myths.
why did you never try to read what science has to say about this stuff? do you generally distrust science? or how come you are totally ignorant what scientists have found out about this topic?
just because you have not the slightest idea doesn't mean the rest of the world is equally ignorant.
btw can you tell me what is more important than humanity? we are the most amazing species in this solar system. and its worth to keep the climate of this planet within the range that lets our species survive in the numbers we are.


http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/2008BAMS2370.1

so much for the global cooling scare of the 60's/70's
 
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There is no problem with the A in AGW being 95% probable. That is what the IPCC reports give it. 97% of climate scientist say that this is the case.

A-CO2 is not assumed to create GW. Any increase in any CO2 from any source will according to the laws of physics warm the planet. It is easy to show that we have been increasing CO2 in the atmosphere. Thus we are the cause of the measured GW.
As I mentioned in my post, I am not impressed by the sheer existence of scientific looking BS sites (such as creationists' ones).
Yes, I understand the CO2 thing quoted above, the question in my mind still is (always has been): is the A-CO2 emission ENOUGH to cause the observed temperature rise? This is a critical factor. If you can give me an OK, well…approximation, then for me the logical loop will close and AGW will become too reasonable to be seriously (enough) questioned. Thank you.
 
As I mentioned in my post, I am not impressed by the sheer existence of scientific looking BS sites (such as creationists' ones).
Yes, I understand the CO2 thing quoted above, the question in my mind still is (always has been): is the A-CO2 emission ENOUGH to cause the observed temperature rise? This is a critical factor. If you can give me an OK, well…approximation, then for me the logical loop will close and AGW will become too reasonable to be seriously (enough) questioned. Thank you.

consider this, half of the warming from our CO2 is masked by cooling we cause by aerosols.
so yes, the Co2 is enough to ause this warming, it would warm even more was it not for aerosols.

http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/figure-ts-5.html
 
So you have problems understanding the basics already. but somehow you think you are still in the position to doubt the conclusions od those people that are actually experts on this field?
why?
the evidence convinced most experts around the world. all top universities around the world accept it and have it as large part of their curriculum. many of the have dedicated whole departments to research it.
every major scientific institution around the world is convinced by the evidence.

they all have no problem udnerstanding "how comes spectral analysis of the IR radiation pointing towards the earth had a typical spectrum of the GHG."

you on the other hand did not even uinderstand the experiment. evidently. but you think you are in a position to doubt the experts conclusions?

why don't you first learn about it more detailed and try to come to a conclusion then?
Thanks for posting all these wonders of yours. I believe such are crossing the minds of many on this issue. I think you might understand it better if you keep reading.
Just look at your quoted reaction. I already guessed that I did not understand the experiment (spectral analysis of downward IR radiation) because the results that did not make sense to me were published in pear reviewed papers. I had no problem to pose my question:"I don't understand…" hoping to get an explanation from the self "experts" (so you claim to be) here. I have enough things that I do understand to be relaxed with this. You (and you are apparently one of the more reasonable in comparison to some haunted close to paranoid others here) understood it as some kind of denial on my side – why? This is not so in other forums (on other scientific issues) I participate in. I think this is the answer to your wonders. Can't you just teach your knowledge and this way try to convince?
So, if you're willing, can you please explain this interesting experiment to me? Thank you
 
Thanks for posting all these wonders of yours. I believe such are crossing the minds of many on this issue. I think you might understand it better if you keep reading.
Just look at your quoted reaction. I already guessed that I did not understand the experiment (spectral analysis of downward IR radiation) because the results that did not make sense to me were published in pear reviewed papers. I had no problem to pose my question:"I don't understand…" hoping to get an explanation from the self "experts" (so you claim to be) here. I have enough things that I do understand to be relaxed with this. You (and you are apparently one of the more reasonable in comparison to some haunted close to paranoid others here) understood it as some kind of denial on my side – why? This is not so in other forums (on other scientific issues) I participate in. I think this is the answer to your wonders. Can't you just teach your knowledge and this way try to convince?
So, if you're willing, can you please explain this interesting experiment to me? Thank you

they key is the change over time.

you measure it once and again later, and you get a difference. and you then can see in wich regions of the spectrum there was more or less change. and by this they were able to see that in the spectrum of CO2, alot less radiation escapes into space compared to the first measurement.
 
they key is the change over time.

you measure it once and again later, and you get a difference. and you then can see in wich regions of the spectrum there was more or less change. and by this they were able to see that in the spectrum of CO2, alot less radiation escapes into space compared to the first measurement.

I suggest you to avoid with this particular subject explanations like showing the changing outgoing longwave spectra along time with respect to greenhouse forcings like the "harry and harry" paper and many others. For this purpose, any explanation should be done exclusively with AR5 WG1 material, plus, eventually, some wiki imagery.

Take into account that typically these subjects can't visually integrate a figure, so they are able to understand why the pressure must go up when the pipe is partially clogged in order to keep the same fluid flowing, but they aren't able -nor generally willing- to understand why surface and low atmosphere temperature must go up when the spectra is progressively interfered by increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases. Please, don't mention quantum physics either.

Remember that the subject's epistemologic stance is "I feel like there's a 50-60% chance anthropogenic in AGW is true and I have problems with giving it a 95% or better". So an "I feel like" in an "it seems" disguise is the method to start assigning chances because, you know, for some people AGW is not a matter of science but a matter for a jury of common folks to decide, like when they declare someone to be guilty as charged or not guilty.
 
For our britanner currently enveloped in a lovely windstorm and tidal surge...


Background/history
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/summary.htm

Carbon cycle
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/research/themes/carbon/

Current over view

http://arstechnica.com/science/2013...eport-is-out-its-warmer-and-were-responsible/

http://arstechnica.com/science/2013...-the-new-ipcc-climate-change-report-answered/

http://bravenewclimate.files.wordpre...science_kw.pdf

http://climatecongress.ku.dk/pdf/synthesisreport

and another good basics
http://www.ace.mmu.ac.uk/Resources/gcc/contents.html

Net mass loss of glaciers is a significant indicator as the energies involved are shocking in scale.

Greenland and Antarctic ice sheet decay, continued « The Way Things Break
http://thingsbreak.wordpress.com/2009/10/13/greenland-and-antarctic-ice-sheet-decay-continued/

Net mass loss in Greenland alone is 100cuKm annually and to put that in some perspective...it is a if the world is carpet bominb Greenland with 2000+ Hiroshima nuclear weapons a DAY!!
1 million a year in thermal equivalent to melt that much ice.

a variety of sources - the Arctic Report is very multidisciplinary - I like analog signals - hard to fool the critters

This one gives you a real overview of the strong signals from biota and cryosphere

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/reportcard/

Getting started links and links to other info sources

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php...05/start-here/

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate-guide/climate-change

http://climate.jpl.nasa.gov/index.cfm

http://www.nature.com/climate/index.html

http://aquarium.ucsd.edu/climate/Climate_Change_FAQ/

http://tamino.wordpress.com/climate-data-links/


Keeping up to date

http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/earth_climate/

http://www.physorg.com/space-news/

http://www.realclimate.org/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/network

http://www.globalchange.gov/whats-new/news

How bad could it be...

Hans Joachim Schellnhuber, the director of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research in Germany, said that if the*
http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-to-1-billion/

Monaco declaration - the other threat
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7860350.stm

MITs updated assessment
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0519134843.htm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6529307.ece
•••••

The stance of the vast majority of the climate science community made by one of their own
•••••

where do I stand??.....in agreement with this

Here is what Gammon had to say concerning links between humans and climate change.

This is like asking, ‘Is the moon round?’ or ‘Does smoking cause cancer?’ We’re at a point now where there is no responsible position stating that humans are not responsible for climate change. That is just not where the science is.…For a long time, for at least five years and probably 10 years, the international scientific community has been very clear.”

In case there is any doubt, Gammon went on:
This is not the balance-of-evidence argument for a civil lawsuit; this is the criminal standard, beyond a reasonable doubt We’ve been there for a long time and I think the media has really not presented that to the public.”

Dr. Richard H. Gammon
Professor of Chemistry and Oceanography*
Adjunct Professor Atmospheric Sciences, University of Washington


Links to Climate Change articles...115 pages from mainstream sources..

Here are the links to the threads from the dawkins science forum....all 115 pages of articles from main stream climate and science sources
From Nov 2006 to current

Most current 15 pages
RichardDawkins.net Forum • View topic - Global Climate Change Science News (Pt. 2)
http://beyondyourken.com/phoenix/Pages/74571-1.html

previous thread 100 pages
RichardDawkins.net Forum • View topic - Global Climate Change Science News
http://beyondyourken.com/phoenix/Pages/2184-1.html

and the fossil fuel companies knew this in the mid 90s..

Industry Ignored Its Scientists on Climate

By ANDREW C. REVKINPublished: April 23, 2009

For more than a decade the Global Climate Coalition, a group representing industries with profits tied to fossil fuels, led an aggressive lobbying and public relations campaign against the idea that emissions of heat-trapping gases could lead to global warming.

“The role of greenhouse gases in climate change is not well understood,” the coalition said in a scientific “backgrounder” provided to lawmakers and journalists through the early 1990s, adding that “scientists differ” on the issue.

But a document filed in a federal lawsuit demonstrates that even as the coalition worked to sway opinion, its own scientific and technical experts were advising that the science backing the role of greenhouse gases in global warming could not be refuted.

Industry Ignored Its Scientists on Climate - NYTimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/science/earth/24deny.html?_r=2

 
I suggest you to avoid with this particular subject explanations like showing the changing outgoing longwave spectra along time with respect to greenhouse forcings like the "harry and harry" paper and many others. For this purpose, any explanation should be done exclusively with AR5 WG1 material, plus, eventually, some wiki imagery.

Take into account that typically these subjects can't visually integrate a figure, so they are able to understand why the pressure must go up when the pipe is partially clogged in order to keep the same fluid flowing, but they aren't able -nor generally willing- to understand why surface and low atmosphere temperature must go up when the spectra is progressively interfered by increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases. Please, don't mention quantum physics either.

Remember that the subject's epistemologic stance is "I feel like there's a 50-60% chance anthropogenic in AGW is true and I have problems with giving it a 95% or better". So an "I feel like" in an "it seems" disguise is the method to start assigning chances because, you know, for some people AGW is not a matter of science but a matter for a jury of common folks to decide, like when they declare someone to be guilty as charged or not guilty.

i will start using AR5 when i red it, WG1 part atleast. and i will read it when the final version is published. that will be a week or two after January 14. 2014

http://www.ipcc.ch/activities/key_dates_AR5_schedulepdf.pdf
 
As I mentioned in my post, I am not impressed by the sheer existence of scientific looking BS sites (such as creationists' ones).
You need to learn to evaluate web sites, skeptsci. Skeptical Science is a premier science based web site dedicated to explaining the scientific literature and the problems with the many climate 'skeptic' myths. From their home page
Explaining climate change science & rebutting global warming misinformation
Scientific skepticism is healthy. Scientists should always challenge themselves to improve their understanding. Yet this isn't what happens with climate change denial. Skeptics vigorously criticise any evidence that supports man-made global warming and yet embrace any argument, op-ed, blog or study that purports to refute global warming. This website gets skeptical about global warming skepticism. Do their arguments have any scientific basis? What does the peer reviewed scientific literature say?
You should also look at the articles they publish and note the many citations to the peer reviewed scientific literature. Then read the literature to confirm that the explanations are valid.

ETA: Also have a look at http://www.realclimate.org/ which is run by actual climate scientists.

What "CO2 thing quoted above"?
Sun & climate: moving in opposite directions is a description of the climate science showing that the web site you linked to is a climate change denier web site (see above).
How sensitive is our climate?[/QUOTE] is the science behind measuring the sensitivity of the climate. This is usually expressed as a response to a "doubling of atmospheric CO2" but is not specific to CO2.

The A-CO2 emission is ENOUGH to cause the observed temperature rise.
As you saw before: Empirical evidence that humans are causing global warming.
Also see The human fingerprint in global warming,

That A-CO2 causes GW and is ENOUGH to cause GW is best shown by the computer models which fit the existing data with A-CO2 added. Start with How reliable are climate models? (in case you are going to bring up that myth :D)
There are two major questions in climate modeling - can they accurately reproduce the past (hindcasting) and can they successfully predict the future? To answer the first question, here is a summary of the IPCC model results of surface temperature from the 1800's - both with and without man-made forcings. All the models are unable to predict recent warming without taking rising CO2 levels into account. Noone has created a general circulation model that can explain climate's behaviour over the past century without CO2 warming.
 
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