Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

There was a lot of confusion was she denied food and water and mistreated it appears that has been pushed by supporters ,Donnino said she was not hit and I have no reason to believe her capable of making up things unlike Amanda. I don't believe this officer told her on the stairs I am sorry for hitting you,a new memory for the book . That one is quite funny , was it said in Italian to the girl who claimed she understood very little. Sounds like she made the silly comment up in a childlike way to give weight to her claim.

You have not been schooled too well by Machiavelli.

Donnino was not there the whole time. She arrived at 12:30 am, and by her own testimony arrived into a scene that needed "mediation": her word, by the way.

As usual, you do not tell the whole story. You still haven't responded to why (using your criteria for suspicion) Battistelli should not be suspected of this crime?

 

[Grinder]

Pretty please?

Also a description of the crime and/or cleanup that accounts for the evidence and the lack of evidence.

Don't even worry about motive, which is a whole other thing . . . just a timeline and a description of what happened that makes sense.

Darn you. Baby steps. Baby steps.

One thing at a time.

Briars has made a huge step on his own by going with another TOD. I truly appreciate that.

 

[Grinder]

Then you also must suspect the postal police of this crime, too. They saw the very same things and were not suspicious that what all this was, was a murder. They simply refused to knock the door in, presumably assuming that everyone was overreacting. Why do you not suspect Battistelli of being involved using the criteria you aim at Knox and Sollecito?

You see this is the very problem Briars, of not being able to provide for a theory of this crime, and/or a time line which fits the evidence.

And why is Machiavelli not here spouting this nonsense?

Please pay attention. The point has been covered. There is no reason to make the silly accusation that the PP are guilty of the crime.

PM Mach, I'm sure he'd love an intellectual convo with you.

 

[Briars]

And the police with the additional knowledge that the missing girls phones had been tossed didn't immediately clear the cottage and enter the locked room which could have had the perp inside. The kids showed them the blood and broken into room. Why didn't these trained policemen knock the door down?



They did call her name and knock on the door, which wasn't that flimsy. I'm not clear why you are so focused on the key hole. Why do you think that he has admitted this " morbid" act? If they were innocent, it seems a very reasonable thing to do. Using your general logic that would prove they are innocent.



Okay there was a purse on the bed. How many purses did she have? Most women have a few and students often just throw their wallet and keys in a back pack.




You are changing the prosecution's time and moving it to close to Nara's bedtime. You must admit that if you can just move the ear witness times around they are not worth anything. Curatolo's testimony as I read it makes it clear that he saw them several times and never stated that he looked up and they weren't there. Though impossible to prove now, most smokers would have more than 3 cigarettes over 2 plus hours but even three smokes would have him seeing them every 40 minutes. Also, I doubt he only looked up when smoking but that's just my opinion.



How do you know there were only three in the room? Have you seen the video recording?

When the interrogators filed suit against her there were 12 names listed. Some sued some didn't. There definitely were more than 3 involved during that interrogation.

I have no inside info but I don't see why her now coming up with the name is the least bit incriminating or suspicious. Perhaps her attorneys advised her that it was not a good idea to give the name because calunnia or other considerations. I also don't understand why the 12:47 call in the afternoon to her mother was in any way suspicious. Why would she lie about it? She would know that it would be tracked on both ends. Cell calls used to listed on every bill and I still can look them up online.

The Raf email story is a little strange. I have no idea of the detail. It as if the book was written for him and he was too busy to read it. As Mach has pointed out he isn't very bright and can't even speak Italian that well. Both of them seem like space cases.

I cannot recall where but I read there were 4 in the room including Amanda and Donnino .One of the 4 was male who even held Amanda's hand when she cried. This is according to Donnino. Now that I write this I realize the number 4 was probably in Donnino's detailed testimony under oath which is available to read.

 

[Grinder]

What is your time of death?

Wow that's chilling.

Do you take Curatolo seriously? Forget for a moment that he's a homeless drug-addicted bum peddling heroin on the side for which the Perugian police have evidence of him doing whilst he testified in three murder trials. Forget also that he's uncertain where he's living (prison BTW) when he testifies again and doesn't know if he's been convicted of anything.

This guy comes forward months later (was it eight?) and claims he remembers that he saw two people at a distance on a particular night, while associating those memories with conditions that happened an entirely different night! How can anyone take that 'memory' of his seriously, even if they ignore all the other indications he's nutty as a fruitcake and (for whatever reason) often ends up testifying in murder cases?

I like leaving him in. You read Italian right? If so, please translate his testimony because it is pretty clear that if you take him at his word there is no way they could have killed Meredith around 10:15 which is Briar's guess at Meredith's TOD.

 

[Briars]

You have not been schooled too well by Machiavelli.

Donnino was not there the whole time. She arrived at 12:30 am, and by her own testimony arrived into a scene that needed "mediation": her word, by the way.

As usual, you do not tell the whole story. You still haven't responded to why (using your criteria for suspicion) Battistelli should not be suspected of this crime?

Amanda had not named Patrick prior to her arrival . Donnino describes how she had an emotional reaction and named Patrick . So no slap caused her to name him as the bad man.

 

[Grinder]

There was a lot of confusion was she denied food and water and mistreated it appears that has been pushed by supporters ,Donnino said she was not hit and I have no reason to believe her capable of making up things unlike Amanda. I don't believe this officer told her on the stairs I am sorry for hitting you,a new memory for the book . That one is quite funny , was it said in Italian to the girl who claimed she understood very little. Sounds like she made the silly comment up in a childlike way to give weight to her claim.

I know thank you and your welcome in a bunch of languages I don't speak. I would guess that at an early point in learning a language one learns how to apologize.

Having said that, she well might have embellished for the book. So what?

Why do you trust a translator that admitted in court that she helped Amanda remember. She wasn't a person off the street. She was a police employee of some sort. Ever heard that consultants give the employer what they want or they aren't hired again.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

who first came up with the idea of an arranged meeting?

British student 'made date with her killer'


By Chris Hastings and Jasper Copping in Perugia12:01AM GMT 04 Nov 2007

A British student murdered in Italy may have invited the killer into her home, police investigating her death now believe.
Officers think Meredith Kercher, 21, left three flatmates to go home alone after watching a film on the night she was murdered because she had arranged to see a man she had met the previous night at a Hallowe'en party.

I probably have seen this before, but I must have forgotten all about it. Who would have told the police that Meredith might have made a date on Halloween. That is odd, very odd. Did Guede read about this at some point?

 

[Briars]

Wow that's chilling.



I like leaving him in. You read Italian right? If so, please translate his testimony because it is pretty clear that if you take him at his word there is no way they could have killed Meredith around 10:15 which is Briar's guess at Meredith's TOD.

how so they were there in the piazza prior to his arrival between 9:30 -10.. My theory is they were waiting for Guede for drugs near the net and Curatolo sees them. They head down the stairs to the cottage unnoticed by Curatolo
Curatolo sees them again after the event close to 11 they remain there looking towards the gate for a half hour or longer waiting for the truck and coast to clear.Curatolo looks up once or twice because he hears a heated discussion and sees RS go over to the rail and look over more then once. When Curatolo leaves after 11:30 they are gone.

 

[Grinder]

I probably have seen this before, but I must have forgotten all about it. Who would have told the police that Meredith might have made a date on Halloween. That is odd, very odd. Did Guede read about this at some point?

I doubt that he read the English language papers. Had they wanted to know what he read I'll bet the German's could have provided his browsing history at least a few of the internet places he used.

They thought that since she had had consensual sex recently and their was no signs of forced sex that she knew her attacker. As I've pointed out before the early reports had her as a party girl and they thought it was more a of a sexual encounter than some "sex game".

The early reports had a number of bar tenders and owners that knew her interviewed. They weren't aware of her having a boyfriend.

Without starting a fight, at that time they already had alcohol in her system, which may have added to the idea of a date.

 

[Bill Williams]

how so they were there in the piazza prior to his arrival between 9:30 -10.. My theory is they were waiting for Guede for drugs near the net and Curatolo sees them. They head down the stairs to the cottage unnoticed by Curatolo
Curatolo sees them again after the event close to 11 they remain there looking towards the gate for a half hour or longer waiting for the truck and coast to clear.Curatolo looks up once or twice because he hears a heated discussion and sees RS go over to the rail and look over more then once. When Curatolo leaves after 11:30 they are gone.

........ once again, this is not a theory. This is just an unfounded allegation, with no proof whatsoever... it's just a guilter surmise. It's what guilters say to get "guilty-sounding" things out there in print somewhere.

It may even go against the evidence, given that there is no record of any communication for this meeting....

 

[Briars]

I know thank you and your welcome in a bunch of languages I don't speak. I would guess that at an early point in learning a language one learns how to apologize.

Having said that, she well might have embellished for the book. So what?

Why do you trust a translator that admitted in court that she helped Amanda remember. She wasn't a person off the street. She was a police employee of some sort. Ever heard that consultants give the employer what they want or they aren't hired again.

I read Donnino's testimony a while back it is lengthy and descriptive,It flows with the accuracy of someone who gave a detailed account that made sense. I have no reason to expect this woman to make up anything . Amanda not only committed calunnia with tidbits of truth about the murder but she continues to lie with fish blood tall tales and the ridiculous shower story.

 

[kwill]

Darn you. Baby steps. Baby steps.

One thing at a time.

Briars has made a huge step on his own by going with another TOD. I truly appreciate that.

Well, one thing at a time is what a timeline is all about, isn't it?

How about it, Briars? A simple timeline.

Who was where, and when were they there, and when did they do what they did?

Here is what I see as the most likely scenario, based on what we know of Rudy:

1. Rudy broke into the cottage through Filomena's window. 8:45 - 8: 50 pm
2. Meredith came home and locked the front door behind herself with her key. 8:55 pm
3. Rudy realized he couldn't get out of the cottage unless he either used the window again or got the key away from Meredith.8:55 - 9 pm
4. Rudy confronted Meredith in her room, where she was in the process of calling to check in with her mother. 8:56 pm
5. Rudy and Meredith struggled. He tried to use his knife to scare her into submission, she resisted, and he killed her. Then he had some kind of sexual experience with her while she was dying. 8:56 - 9:10 pm
6. Rudy washed the blood off his pantleg in the bathroom Meredith and Amanda shared. 9:10 - 9:20 pm
6. Rudy took Meredith's keys, cash, credit cards, and phones. 9:20 - 9:25 pm
7. Rudy locked Meredith's door behind him and left the cottage. 9:25 - 9:30 pm

What is the similar scenario that you see as most likely?

 

[Grinder]

how so they were there in the piazza prior to his arrival between 9:30 -10.. My theory is they were waiting for Guede for drugs near the net and Curatolo sees them. They head down the stairs to the cottage unnoticed by Curatolo
Curatolo sees them again after the event close to 11 they remain there looking towards the gate for a half hour or longer waiting for the truck and coast to clear.Curatolo looks up once or twice because he hears a heated discussion and sees RS go over to the rail and look over more then once. When Curatolo leaves after 11:30 they are gone.

Thank you for the time line.

Once again I urge you or anyone to translate the testimony of Curatolo. He says that he left just before midnight and they were still there.

So they leave Raf's at 9:20 and go straight to the plaza. They had arranged this drug buy by Amanda bumping into him after she received the text from PL and before Popovic came by and set Raf free. Even though she had intended to party with Rudy, she tell Raf that she isn't working and made arrangements to meet Rudy.

They for some reason don't meet at the cottage but instead go to the plaza carrying the biggish kitchen knife. They go down and Curatolo misses it. Since he arrived after 9:30 and they were there it would probably be no earlier than 9:45. At that time Meredith had been home for 45 minutes. From what we know she hadn't gotten on the Internet, changed her clothes, or called her mother.

The gang comes in and does the drug transaction but Amanda is short on cash and asks Meredith for money. Meredith calls her a drugged up tart and Amanda goes nuts. She pulls out the knife and tells Rudy to go ahead and rape the prissy bitch. Raf joins in and holds her while Amanda threatens with the knife and Rudy uses his finger and perhaps cums on the pillow. Then Amanda says it's time and stabs her through the neck. They run back to the plaza and the car is broken down so they wait to return.

They never used the drugs and that's why they tested negative. It was dark so they didn't worry about being bloody. They took the knife and had it with them.

Is that about it?

 

[Briars]

........ once again, this is not a theory. This is just an unfounded allegation, with no proof whatsoever... it's just a guilter surmise. It's what guilters say to get "guilty-sounding" things out there in print somewhere.

It may even go against the evidence, given that there is no record of any communication for this meeting....

. The unfounded allegation is made by Crini Bill the three met up and were at the cottage.

 

[Grinder]

1. Rudy broke into the cottage through Filomena's window. 8:45 - 8: 50 pm
2. Meredith came home and locked the front door behind herself with her key. 8:55 pm
3. Rudy realized he couldn't get out of the cottage unless he either used the window again or got the key away from Meredith.8:55 - 9 pm
4. Rudy confronted Meredith in her room, where she was in the process of calling to check in with her mother. 8:56 pm
5. Rudy and Meredith struggled. He tried to use his knife to scare her into submission, she resisted, and he killed her. Then he had some kind of sexual experience with her while she was dying. 8:56 - 9:10 pm
6. Rudy washed the blood off his pantleg in the bathroom Meredith and Amanda shared. 9:10 - 9:20 pm
6. Rudy took Meredith's keys, cash, credit cards, and phones. 9:20 - 9:25 pm
7. Rudy locked Meredith's door behind him and left the cottage. 9:25 - 9:30 pm

What is the similar scenario that you see as most likely?

Well I think she arrived minutes later and I agree with Briars that the man seen by what's her name around 10:20 was Rudy.

I think it took him more time to clean up and make a plan.

 

[Bill Williams]

........ once again, this is not a theory. This is just an unfounded allegation, with no proof whatsoever... it's just a guilter surmise. It's what guilters say to get "guilty-sounding" things out there in print somewhere.

It may even go against the evidence, given that there is no record of any communication for this meeting....

. The unfounded allegation is made by Crini Bill the three met up and were at the cottage.

Finally something we agree upon!

If you want to turn it into something "founded" it would be easy to cite the evidence. But beware, it has to be part of a timeline which explains this non-existence evidence.

 

[Briars]

Thank you for the time line.

Once again I urge you or anyone to translate the testimony of Curatolo. He says that he left just before midnight and they were still there.

So they leave Raf's at 9:20 and go straight to the plaza. They had arranged this drug buy by Amanda bumping into him after she received the text from PL and before Popovic came by and set Raf free. Even though she had intended to party with Rudy, she tell Raf that she isn't working and made arrangements to meet Rudy.

They for some reason don't meet at the cottage but instead go to the plaza carrying the biggish kitchen knife. They go down and Curatolo misses it. Since he arrived after 9:30 and they were there it would probably be no earlier than 9:45. At that time Meredith had been home for 45 minutes. From what we know she hadn't gotten on the Internet, changed her clothes, or called her mother.

The gang comes in and does the drug transaction but Amanda is short on cash and asks Meredith for money. Meredith calls her a drugged up tart and Amanda goes nuts. She pulls out the knife and tells Rudy to go ahead and rape the prissy bitch. Raf joins in and holds her while Amanda threatens with the knife and Rudy uses his finger and perhaps cums on the pillow. Then Amanda says it's time and stabs her through the neck. They run back to the plaza and the car is broken down so they wait to return.

They never used the drugs and that's why they tested negative. It was dark so they didn't worry about being bloody. They took the knife and had it with them.

Is that about it?

I would have to locate his testimony again . I'm pretty sure he said they were gone when he left .

 

[Grinder]

Bill, Yummi is over at PMF.com

Why so strict on the definition of theory when so many other words just need to be close

 

[acbytesla]

how so they were there in the piazza prior to his arrival between 9:30 -10.. My theory is they were waiting for Guede for drugs near the net and Curatolo sees them. They head down the stairs to the cottage unnoticed by Curatolo
Curatolo sees them again after the event close to 11 they remain there looking towards the gate for a half hour or longer waiting for the truck and coast to clear.Curatolo looks up once or twice because he hears a heated discussion and sees RS go over to the rail and look over more then once. When Curatolo leaves after 11:30 they are gone.

The case of the appearing disappearing suspects. How in the hell do you sneak the murder in when they were spending all that time in the Piazza?

Notice that Rudy is not seen. So, you believe Curatolo and that Amanda and Raffaele along with Rudy killed Meredith? That would mean that Amanda and Raffaele walked from Raffaele's apartment and hung out in piazza during November while all the party revelers in Halloween costume waited for the buses to the disco and then together headed to the apartment where Rudy was having a date with Meredith and the three of them killed Meredith. Then Rudy went his separate way and Amanda and Raffaele decided to hang out in the Piazza for another hour.

Interesting.