• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Status
Not open for further replies.
You keep repeating this but it doesn't make it true. It was a confused, panicky situation and Amanda and Raff hadn't seen that anything was obviously missing.

There is nothing suspicious, and it's only malicious thinking from the police (who wanted ready-made suspects) and the PGP (who swallowed the hysteria and can't let go) that make it so.

What is harder to understand is why someone like you should call it "suspicious", when you agree with innocence but maybe want to find reasons to blame the 2 students for their own misfortune.

Were you following the case when this information first came out? At that time much of the information you now rely on for innocence hadn't been released.

What I have said here recently is that it was reasonable AT THE TIME for the police to look at his answer as suspicious. I still think that it was an odd answer and for sure think it was an unfortunate choice of words.

One of the most unfortunate aspects of the leaking that occurred in this case is that people couldn't be caught out by knowing things they shouldn't know.

Does anybody know when the feces in the toilet story first broke? I'm curious because of Rudy's Skype account where he had himself on the toilet.
 
When he calls back the phone guy is still harping on about a theft, asking "What did they take?" Raffaele, probably a little frustrated by now, answers "They didn't take anything, the problem is there's a locked door and drops of blood". He's trying to make the man understand that he's not calling to report a theft, but because they can't get in touch with Meredith, which is concerning since someone's obviously been in the house.

I'm sure the police wonder why doesn't he just say so?

When you think about it from Raffaele's perspective, it's an odd phone call to have to make: reporting a theft would be straightforward, but he's calling not to say anything's been stolen but to report all these slightly odd things which might well turn out to be absolutely nothing. It probably sounded a bit weird to the phone guy at the time, but of course once Meredith's body was discovered, all the little odd circumstances should have made sense.

All I've said as I have repeated many times that it would suspicious to investigators. Why didn't he answer that he wasn't concerned about anything stolen but rather what had happened to the missing roommate?
That's how a reasonable police investigator would look at it even with the explanation.

Is there any evidence the police actually did latch onto that part of Raffaele's conversation before they were arrested? I know the prosecution used it later, but that doesn't mean the police noticed at the time. My guess is that they found the fact that nothing had been taken much more suspicious than the fact Raffaele noticed nothing had been taken.

You could have that nailed. I doubt anybody but a true crime writer would know the answer :p.
 
Last edited:
Ron Hendry did a good job of this as well as the Channel 5 documentary. They said the rock was most certainly thrown from outside. I think they said that this could be proven 100 percent by examining the edge of the glass. Unfortunately, I don't think this was ever done and the window pane and the glass are both long gone.

I have read through Hendry's article on this also and he seems to make a very good case that the rock was thrown from the outside but could that be definitively proven by looking at the shards of glass? It is my understanding that the window was an inward opening casement window and the prosecution theory is that somebody used a large rock to break the outside surface of the window from inside the house. It seems like analysis of the shards to determine the direction of the break couldn't be used to differentiate between the two possibilities.
 
I have read through Hendry's article on this also and he seems to make a very good case that the rock was thrown from the outside but could that be definitively proven by looking at the shards of glass? It is my understanding that the window was an inward opening casement window and the prosecution theory is that somebody used a large rock to break the outside surface of the window from inside the house. It seems like analysis of the shards to determine the direction of the break couldn't be used to differentiate between the two possibilities.

The engineer in the Channel 5 documentary said that If you look at the edge of a shard of glass under a microscope, you supposedly can how tell the direction the glass deformed and finally broke. Something about the ridges have telltale signs.

I'm taking his word on that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsQLKWDskhA
 
But the point is that since the window opened inwards, it would have been possible to have thrown a rock through the exterior face of the window from inside.
 
My take on this is that Raffaele said nothing had been taken because he thought nothing had been taken.

I get it. Raf is/was innocent. He honestly thought nothing had been taken. The PLE should have realized this from day one and therefore shouldn't have thought it was odd or suspicious.

If they had staged the scene then they would have cleaned up the lavatory/toilet and possibly taken something obvious like a laptop (and after clean up gone off on daytrip as planned) If they were worried about being seen carrying a laptop shaped bundle then ok they wouldn't have. But Rafaelle would most definitely calibrate his response to something like "Nothing appears to be taken but we aren't sure" or something like that, something simple and reasonable sounding. I appreciate that if the burglary was staged then they would have to take something, i.e. money, but then you wouldn't want to be too knowledgeable about precisely what's been taken so then again the default "not sure" response is the most obvious response for a guilty party.

To this day I'm not sure if anything was taken from outside Meredith's room.

Generally if someone stages a break in they should take something. In this case had they staged they might have thought the murder and the thefts from Meredith would be enough to prove someone broke in.
 
All Amanda would have had to say was nothing "seems" to have been taken and Raffaele missed the word "seems". We have no idea if Amanda and Raffaele were speaking English or speaking Italian at that moment, and looking back they might not be sure either. Mis-communications happen all the time when people are speaking the same language, let alone where it's a combination of two and neither is very good with the other's native tongue.

Raf was speaking Italian to the 911 operator. He had eyes and brain of his own if you don't buy into Mignini's control theory. A little word like "seems" changes the meaning and level of knowledge.

But since the PLE should have just looked at the kids and known they were innocent, what he exactly said shouldn't have mattered.

If he had said that they were very worried about the missing roommate because they feared she had been stabbed to death would that have been suspicious?

Frankly, I'm tired with this obsession over whether Raffaele's mentioning of this means anything. I can see where it might give one pause for a second, but in of itself it is insanely difficult to interpret. At what point do we say we don't know? And that in truth, it isn't proof of anything and we let it go and actually discuss real evidence.

I swear all the PGP has is speculation. Why did Amanda do this? And why did Raffaele say that?

I'm not PGP and I didn't say it means anything now. Since you like caps I HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT IT WAS REASONABLE AT THE TIME TO THINK IT WAS SUSPICIOUS.

You love the straw man. Did I say it was proof of anything? The most I said was that it could be placed on the side of guilt on the scales but had little to no weight.

I'm tired of the obsession with nothing the PLE was in the least bit reasonable and that nothing the kids did should have drawn any suspicion. The kids themselves admit more fault than any of the PIP here. That is about the only thing that I agree with the PGP on.
 
I have read through Hendry's article on this also and he seems to make a very good case that the rock was thrown from the outside but could that be definitively proven by looking at the shards of glass? It is my understanding that the window was an inward opening casement window and the prosecution theory is that somebody used a large rock to break the outside surface of the window from inside the house. It seems like analysis of the shards to determine the direction of the break couldn't be used to differentiate between the two possibilities.

I don't think there really is any doubt that the glass was thrown from the outside.
 
But the point is that since the window opened inwards, it would have been possible to have thrown a rock through the exterior face of the window from inside.

The problem with that is that the glass shards were where one would expect to find them if the rock were thrown from the outside. The kids could have placed the shards but that seems highly unlikely.
 
Quite so, but the key point is the distribution of the glass fragments, not the "ridges" that the forensics expert on the Channel 5 documentary was going on about. This was a point of imprecision in the Channel 5 recreation, which didn't use a shuttered window. Someone should probably have pointed that out to the forensics guy.
 
I've been following this case since the very beginning
and have never doubted Amanda's or Raffaele's innocence.

Given that there was unaccounted DNA and prints found in Meredith's room....
I would be interested to hear views on the following:

1. At around 9pm there was allegedly a white car with headlights on
and the engine running, parked on the road directly outside the cottage.
The owner was said to be a drug dealer who lived in Corso Garibaldi.

2. Kokomani was in the area at that time (per cellphone data)

3. A dark car was apparently parked in the driveway of the cottage
also at that time

4. Did the police ever look for the so called knife and keys supposedly hidden
by Luciano Aviello?

5. Did the police ever look for his brother, Antonio Aviello?
He was reported to have disappeared from Perugia on the day
Meredith's body was found.

6. Was Guede left handed?

7. Entry into the downstairs appartment with a key:

a. Presumably Guede?
b. Stefano's room was disturbed
c. Wet flipflops found in the bathroom
d. Blood found on a light switch...was it determined as cat's
or human blood?
Was any other evidence found there?
 
Last edited:
Sgt. Pasquali demonstrated it

But the point is that since the window opened inwards, it would have been possible to have thrown a rock through the exterior face of the window from inside.
Yes, but the rock would have a different position and momentum when it hit under Massei's conjecture than if it were broken as the defense claims. That is why the glass distribution inside the room is so important IMO.
ETA
It sounds as if one or two other commenters made the same point.
 
Last edited:
Exactly where is 36-I?
[...]
Here: ;)
image.php
 
The problem with that is that the glass shards were where one would expect to find them if the rock were thrown from the outside. The kids could have placed the shards but that seems highly unlikely.

Yes, my point wasn't that the available evidence suggests that the rock was thrown from the outside. It looks to me like it does. My point was that a test that could determine which side was impacted first by the rock would not provide definitive evidence for either the defense theory or the prosecution theory about the breaking of the window.

The thing that troubled me a bit about the window being broken from the outside theory was that I imagined that the rock needed to be thrown from below. When I came to realize that the rock could be thrown roughly at the same level as the window breaking the window in a way that it seems to have been done with a rock looks like a likely possibility to me.

As far as the mystery suggested in the video about why there wasn't a greater disbursal of the shards back from the window: I didn't think this was a mystery at all. I thought the explanation was that the inside shutter was partially closed and that limited the disbursal of the shards. Hendry's article claims that a mark on the inside shutter was probably caused by the rock thrown from the outside.

If the Italian police had investigated the window breakage with more rigor and had examined the exterior wall with more care with the goal of finding smudge marks caused by shoes then it seems like that the possibility of a break in could have been ruled out or in more reliably. Right now the evidence looks like it points strongly towards a break in from the outside but as with many elements of this crime unless the evidence can be shown to be definitively false it is used to suggest RS/AK guilt.
 
Yes, my point wasn't that the available evidence suggests that the rock was thrown from the outside. It looks to me like it does. My point was that a test that could determine which side was impacted first by the rock would not provide definitive evidence for either the defense theory or the prosecution theory about the breaking of the window.

The thing that troubled me a bit about the window being broken from the outside theory was that I imagined that the rock needed to be thrown from below. When I came to realize that the rock could be thrown roughly at the same level as the window breaking the window in a way that it seems to have been done with a rock looks like a likely possibility to me.

As far as the mystery suggested in the video about why there wasn't a greater disbursal of the shards back from the window: I didn't think this was a mystery at all. I thought the explanation was that the inside shutter was partially closed and that limited the disbursal of the shards. Hendry's article claims that a mark on the inside shutter was probably caused by the rock thrown from the outside.

If the Italian police had investigated the window breakage with more rigor and had examined the exterior wall with more care with the goal of finding smudge marks caused by shoes then it seems like that the possibility of a break in could have been ruled out or in more reliably. Right now the evidence looks like it points strongly towards a break in from the outside but as with many elements of this crime unless the evidence can be shown to be definitively false it is used to suggest RS/AK guilt.

Dave, there are several other things the police should have done.

They should have looked to see if there were any glass fragments below the window on the outside. I mean really looked, by getting down and running a hand or tool (cloth with tacky adhesive?) over the grass, leaves, or dirt to pick up any glass shards and slivers. (A proper forensic examination might involve laying a grid over the area and doing a close examination of vegetation and topsoil.) As it was, after a cursery look, those running the crime scene examination (Stefanini? Mignini?) allowed police to use the area under Filomena's window as a place to smoke cigarettes or make cell phone calls.

A proper exam would also involve examining the TV antenna wire that looped loosely along the bedroom's inside wall below the window. Ron Hendry identifies from photos that the wire is bent or kinked at a certain spot under the window, and is discolored there from what may be the burglar's shoe as he snagged his shoe sole on the loose wire while climbing in the window. The discoloration on the antenna cable should be examined to see if it is made of soil, as would occur if someone climbing in the window snagged the bottom of his shoe on the cable, and kinked it there. ( Let me mention that discredited American stringer Andrea Vogt is married to a reputable Italian soil scientist with US Ph.D and post-doc research experience at German and Italian geological institutes. A serious and impartial scientist like him could have examined the discoloration and confirmed or denied it was made by soil from a shoe snag.)

Additionally, Ron Hendry identifies dirt dust left on the floor and torn bag from a shoe step just inside the window. The direction and location of this shoe print dirt is compatible with the person coming into the room through the window.

This is a good time to point out again discrepancies in Filomena's account of closing her shutters, and Mignini's role in shaping her statement. When first questioned Filomena said she closed the outer shutters a bit but not all the way, due to the fact swollen wood interferred with the shutters closing all the way. Mignini went over her statement with her in several rounds of questioning and by the time he had his input, wouldn't' you know it, she agreed her shutters were pretty well closed. Mignini's theory was that the break-in was staged and he needed her statement to be that the shutters were closed or nearly closed.
 
I have read through Hendry's article on this also and he seems to make a very good case that the rock was thrown from the outside but could that be definitively proven by looking at the shards of glass? It is my understanding that the window was an inward opening casement window and the prosecution theory is that somebody used a large rock to break the outside surface of the window from inside the house. It seems like analysis of the shards to determine the direction of the break couldn't be used to differentiate between the two possibilities.
I have always believed it is the shard stuck in the shutter that affords proof. This requires the rock to be thrown with the same velocity as it takes to make the shard stick in hardwood. This velocity would be illogical from inside the room where not required, when minimum noise is needed at midnight, and impossible from below the window as the rock would be at the apogee of a vertical upwards throw with little velocity. Therefore it was thrown horizontally from the car park.
 
Raf was speaking Italian to the 911 operator. He had eyes and brain of his own if you don't buy into Mignini's control theory. A little word like "seems" changes the meaning and level of knowledge.

I know that Raf was speaking Italian to the operator. That has little bearing on how he came to the conclusion that nothing was missing. If we think that he got this info from Amanda, a mis-communication between the two of them is very possible.

Amanda says to him in English that "nothing seems to be missing" and Raffaeale overlooks the word "seems" in translation. Don't you think that is very possible?

I'm not PGP and I didn't say it means anything now. Since you like caps I HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT IT WAS REASONABLE AT THE TIME TO THINK IT WAS SUSPICIOUS.

You love the straw man. Did I say it was proof of anything? The most I said was that it could be placed on the side of guilt on the scales but had little to no weight.

I'm tired of the obsession with nothing the PLE was in the least bit reasonable and that nothing the kids did should have drawn any suspicion. The kids themselves admit more fault than any of the PIP here. That is about the only thing that I agree with the PGP on.

And how is my saying that I'm tired of this argument a "straw man" ? You need to look up what a straw man is because this isn't that.
 
Were you following the case when this information first came out? At that time much of the information you now rely on for innocence hadn't been released.

What I have said here recently is that it was reasonable AT THE TIME for the police to look at his answer as suspicious. I still think that it was an odd answer and for sure think it was an unfortunate choice of words.

I hesitate to express scorn for an opposing view, but it's hard to see what other response is needed. We're talking about Raff's remark that nothing had been stolen. Several people have pointed out exactly why there is no reason for it to raise any eyebrows, regardless of what else was known or wasn't known; all I've seen from you is a series of unsupported assertions defending the police in calling it "suspicious", without any rationale for doing so.

Whatever stage it was that I started following the story has nothing to do with it. You haven't made your case. Just drop it.
 
Should we be suspicious of anyone that knows nothing was stollen after a breakin? Should we be suspicious of these people?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom