Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

Ok thanks for the clarification.

Gosh following the last few pages one could be left with the impression that the prosecutor spoke only of Guede’s un-flushed deposit, was anything else raised? Was any mention made of the Italian Supreme Court’s motivation report on Guede third level trial, that he and others were responsible for Meredith’s murder? How long did proceedings last on Tuesday?

Crini divided his argument into 16 different elements. He pretty much followed the ISC motivation. But he seemed to drop the ISC's idea that this was a sex orgy gone wrong. Instead, the murder was set off by the tension between Amanda and Meredith and Rudy's un-flushed poop.

He also made Machiavelli's new argument that the knife stain matched the cooking knife. The other really strange thing was that he argued that Meredith's TOD was before 10:30 or after 11:30 and that it was unnecessary to provide a timeline. He also said that the negative controls were "deposited" into the court file. Although there is nothing to back this up. 6 years later and they still have never been produced.

He argued that there had to be multiple assailants because of the mythological clean up.

 

[Kaosium]

Ok thanks for the clarification.

Gosh following the last few pages one could be left with the impression that the prosecutor spoke only of Guede’s un-flushed deposit, was anything else raised? Was any mention made of the Italian Supreme Court’s motivation report on Guede third level trial, that he and others were responsible for Meredith’s murder? How long did proceedings last on Tuesday?

The dump theory at least has the distinction of being new!

What weight do you think should be given to the conclusions of a trial where it's in the best interest of both parties to blame Amanda and Raffaele for as much as they can with them having no defense?

Upthread somewhere is a link where if I recall correctly they said something about the prosecution presentation being about seven or eight hours.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Crini divided his argument into 16 different elements. He pretty much followed the ISC motivation. But he seemed to drop the ISC's idea that this was a sex orgy gone wrong. Instead, the murder was set off by the tension between Amanda and Meredith and Rudy's un-flushed poop.

He also made Machiavelli's new argument that the knife stain matched the cooking knife. The other really strange thing was that he argued that Meredith's TOD was before 10:30 or after 11:30 and that it was unnecessary to provide a timeline. He also said that the negative controls were "deposited" into the court file. Although there is nothing to back this up. 6 years later and they still have never been produced.

He argued that there had to be multiple assailants because of the mythological clean up.

K thanks for the overview.

 

[Poppy1016]

This discussion has gone down the crapper.

 

[acbytesla]

This discussion has gone down the crapper.

There certainly has been a lot of scatological humor the last in the last 35 hours.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The dump theory at least has the distinction of being new!

What weight do you think should be given to the conclusions of a trial where it's in the best interest of both parties to blame Amanda and Raffaele for as much as they can with them having no defense?

Upthread somewhere is a link where if I recall correctly they said something about the prosecution presentation being about seven or eight hours.

I was curious whether the prosecution raised it yesterday, but I guess if they are going to use it would be in closing arguments; as for weight I am not sure, everything related to Guede’s trials has been entered into evidence for this appeal, just as the independent report (V & C) from the annulled appeal none of this evidence has featured much so far so I assume it will be used in the motivation report, I guess.

Separation of the trial process was at Guede lawyers request; nonetheless it has always been one murder case.

 

[JREF2010]

I can't believe we are having this conversation.

The case of a thousand motives.

 

[Mary_H]

This discussion has gone down the crapper.

Everyone's gone poop simple.

 

[Mary_H]

No, this is what Crini said. "Crini argued that Rudy Guede — a native of Ivory Coast now serving a 16-year sentence for the murder — may have inflamed tensions between Knox and Kercher after he defecated in a toilet inside the women's apartment and didn't flush.

Crini said Guede, who was friendly with young men living in a neighboring apartment, had done the same thing the previous week. "It is an absolutely disgusting and incongruous habit that he evidently had," Crini said.
Testimony in previous trials had cited tensions between Kercher and Knox over the cleanliness of the house they shared with two Italian roommates."

At least now we know what would cause Crini to commit murder.

 

[Bill Williams]

Ok thanks for the clarification.

Gosh following the last few pages one could be left with the impression that the prosecutor spoke only of Guede’s un-flushed deposit, was anything else raised? Was any mention made of the Italian Supreme Court’s motivation report on Guede third level trial, that he and others were responsible for Meredith’s murder? How long did proceedings last on Tuesday?

One of the things I truly admire in individuals is their ability to stand in there, in the midst of what they might regard as "group think", and maintain the integrity of their own position.

Of course I am talking about you. This "JREF Continuation" lately must seem to you like a long exercise in confirmation bias and group think amongst those who believe in RS's and AK's innocence.

I admire you for it. You have integrity.

Still, this is where I depart back into my version of "group think", I suppose. How much of this "prosecutors making things up on the fly" can one fair minded person handle, until they, too, start doubting....?

Just asking.

Still, thanks for bringing this back to the case. What we now have is a new prosecutor with deviations from the original prosecution team which told the world this was a sex-game gone wrong (and three other things, depending on the day), a new prosecutor who thinks that an oversized knife matches an undersized knife, and says (against Mignini, but in agreement with Massei) that there was no premeditation. And, oh yes, despite the ISC saying that Curatolo and Nara are to be believed, the new prosecutor says T.O.D. is either early OR late. Sheesh.

Still, c'mon, the pooh in the toilet was the stresser!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

[Dan O.]

I thought the toilet in question was in fact of the design Brits and Americans would regard as normal? I saw pics, I think, and wasn't there some talk about the turd having sunk below the water at some stage? That couldn't happen with the design you're describing.

Rolfe.

No, you didn't see the pics. I accidentally got a glimps of one of the pics through a mirror and spent 3 month in rehab recovering.

The first time Amanda returned to the cottage on November 2nd she saw the poo. When she returned with Raff, she looked back in that room and didn't see the poo and thought someone had flushed it while she was gone. Later, after Meredith's body had been discovered, Raffaele relayed this information to one of the police women and she speculated that maybe it had slid down since it was still there.

When this subject came up much earlier in these threads, I posted the Spheron images of that toilet. From a higher angle or closer to the toilet you can see something is there. But from about eye height standing directly in front of the mirror over the sink the bowl looks completely empty. I am sure that this is what Amanda saw.

If necessary, I can post those pics again. But be warned. Last time I discussed posting them, my post went directly to AAH.

 

[Planigale]

Crini divided his argument into 16 different elements. He pretty much followed the ISC motivation. But he seemed to drop the ISC's idea that this was a sex orgy gone wrong. Instead, the murder was set off by the tension between Amanda and Meredith and Rudy's un-flushed poop.

He also made Machiavelli's new argument that the knife stain matched the cooking knife. The other really strange thing was that he argued that Meredith's TOD was before 10:30 or after 11:30 and that it was unnecessary to provide a timeline. He also said that the negative controls were "deposited" into the court file. Although there is nothing to back this up. 6 years later and they still have never been produced.

He argued that there had to be multiple assailants because of the mythological clean up.

I love the logic; there is no evidence of AK & RS at the scene of the crime, AK & RS committed the crime, therefore they must have removed the evidence, therefore the lack of evidence is proof they committed the crime. This is a revolution in judicial process, henceforth the absence of evidence is evidence of absence of innocence.

 

[Bill Williams]

I love the logic; there is no evidence of AK & RS at the scene of the crime, AK & RS committed the crime, therefore they must have removed the evidence, therefore the lack of evidence is proof they committed the crime. This is a revolution in judicial process, henceforth the absence of evidence is evidence of absence of innocence.

It's worse than this really. Even as a clean up masks or erases evidence, there is always evidence that a clean up had taken place. This case has no evidence that a clean happened, indeed there is also evidence that one could not have happened.

Aside from this, Crini has a case.

 

[acbytesla]

It's worse than this really. Even as a clean up masks or erases evidence, there is always evidence that a clean up had taken place. This case has no evidence that a clean happened, indeed there is also evidence that one could not have happened.

Aside from this, Crini has a case.

I don't know how someone can stand in blood and wipe only some of the blood away and if Luminol can show blood that is wiped up, why doesn't it show that in this case?

It's not a joke when the PIP ask sarcastically if the Perugian police or prosecution thinks Amanda can levitate.

 

[Strozzi]

No, but it is a mistake, they found Rudy's DNA inside Meredith, not his semen.

Brain lapse.

Somebody's semen may be on the pillow that Rudy placed under the victim's hips. The police refuse to analyze it. One theory why the PLE won't analyze it is because the prosecution's strategy is to do nothing that might help clear Amanda. Don't test anything that could be exculpatory evidence.

If they test the pillow it naturally would be exculpatory evidence for Amanda as any semen on it can't be Amanda's.

 

[NancyS]

I love the logic; there is no evidence of AK & RS at the scene of the crime, AK & RS committed the crime, therefore they must have removed the evidence, therefore the lack of evidence is proof they committed the crime. This is a revolution in judicial process, henceforth the absence of evidence is evidence of absence of innocence.

It's just ridiculous. I've read people discussing that the corridors must have been cleaned and only Amanda and Raffaele had a motive to do this - however, Guede would have had a strong motive to do this imaginary cleaning. Lock Meredith's door and clean up the rest of the house, so that if any of her housemates came home that night, they wouldn't raise an immediate alarm - and this would give him some time to decide what to do next.

 

[JREF2010]

I can't wait to see the judicial opinion where they describe the dynamic by which Meredith was killed because she got uppity about Geude's poop. It's gonna be a classic, right up with Potter Stewart's "I know it when I see it" definition of obscenity.

One can only guess what visual pictures Maresca will use this time.

 

[JREF2010]

Somebody's semen may be on the pillow that Rudy placed under the victim's hips. The police refuse to analyze it. One theory why the PLE won't analyze it is because the prosecution's strategy is to do nothing that might help clear Amanda. Don't test anything that could be exculpatory evidence.

If they test the pillow it naturally would be exculpatory evidence for Amanda as any semen on it can't be Amanda's.

And the only suggestion of sex between Meredith and her friend downstairs took place in his bedroom. I spent sometime going through articles and none included the two in Merediths room.

Which really makes a person wonder if its semen and if its Rudys,then it adds a little credibility to the prison yard scenario, which claimed Rudy was masterbating in the room during the crime etc..etc..

Of all these trials no one tests this semen stain, its become the elephant in the room the judges ignore for some odd reason.

 

[Kestrel]

It's just ridiculous. I've read people discussing that the corridors must have been cleaned and only Amanda and Raffaele had a motive to do this - however, Guede would have had a strong motive to do this imaginary cleaning. Lock Meredith's door and clean up the rest of the house, so that if any of her housemates came home that night, they wouldn't raise an immediate alarm - and this would give him some time to decide what to do next.

But since there is no evidence of cleaning in the hallway, why bother coming up with an explanation for a hallway cleanup?

Absence of evidence is not proof that evidence once existed and was magically removed.

 

[Strozzi]

Rudy's Souvenir is "Osmotic" Proof of Amanda's Guilt

No, you didn't see the pics. I accidentally got a glimps of one of the pics through a mirror and spent 3 month in rehab recovering.

The first time Amanda returned to the cottage on November 2nd she saw the poo. When she returned with Raff, she looked back in that room and didn't see the poo and thought someone had flushed it while she was gone. Later, after Meredith's body had been discovered, Raffaele relayed this information to one of the police women and she speculated that maybe it had slid down since it was still there.

When this subject came up much earlier in these threads, I posted the Spheron images of that toilet. From a higher angle or closer to the toilet you can see something is there. But from about eye height standing directly in front of the mirror over the sink the bowl looks completely empty. I am sure that this is what Amanda saw.

If necessary, I can post those pics again. But be warned. Last time I discussed posting them, my post went directly to AAH.

On her second trip to her house on Nov. 2 when Raffaelle accompanied her back and they saw the broken window and started calling everyone, Amanda looked back in the toilet. She apparently stood back from the toilet bowl a bit because it was not a sight she wanted to see up close. From her distance and angle, Amanda saw nothing in the bowl. At that point she became alarmed that someone had flushed it, and that frightened her that a burglar was still in the house when she showered and changed clothes an hour or so earlier.

After the murder was discovered, Amanda, then waiting with others in the front yard, told a policewoman about the poop in the toilet that had disappeared. Amanda was agitated about it because she thought someone had been in the house and flushed it. The policewoman located it. It had not been flushed , as Amanda thought. It might have slid lower in the bowl. The policewoman appeared to think that this American girl was pretty panicked and weird.

Later an accusation made against Amanda was that she tried to misdirect the investigation by giving the policewoman a false story about the disappearing poop which happily was recovered to all of our relief, I'm sure. The PLE use it as one of their indications that Amanda and Raffaele tried to steer or, in Machiavelli's words, "control" the investigation.

This is the crap the PLE uses as "osmotic" evidence of guilt!