Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Strozzi]

Is there any evidence that Filomena smoked pot at home? Did she possess it herself? If not, did Laura or someone else share it with Filomena?

After the murder was discovered, Filomena snuck back in her room to retrieve her laptop. If Filomena possessed and smoked pot at home and had not used up the last of it the last time she smoked, then she almost certainly had pot in her room. When she snuck back in her room to retrieve her laptop, what are the odds she did not remove her pot lest the police find it?

Did the police find pot in her room? If not, why not?

 

[Bill Williams]

It's possible there is no documentation of Mignini saying he relied on Carlizzi's counsel. Unfortunately for McMeany, when you are suspected of doing something nutty (like arresting innocent suspects) people tend to look at all the nutty things you ever did, in order to bolster their case against you. Or so I have been told.

And the equivalent on the other side was Knox's noise violation....

 

[Strozzi]

You don't think Meredith could have been relaxing in her bed fiddling with the phone buttons at 21:58 and 22:00 then suddenly Raffaele and Amanda burst into her room and start molesting her then Patrick shows up because Amanda said they should meet and the forth suspect Usi comes in with Patrick then Rudy who just happened to be in the neighborhood breaks in through Filomena's window and stops to take a dump without flushing before replacing Patrick in the murder room and the whole perugia police department shows up with knives from the kitchen except for Mignini who doesn't have a key and thinks the climb into Filomena's window is impossible and starts screaming like a girl because it's unfair then Monica slapps Meredith on the back of the head saying you're not doing it right but this causes three of the kitchen knives to slice into her throat so they all run away together across the gravel drive and up the metal steps in perfect unison which creates such a racket that it can be heard in the apartments across the street and this is what caused the mms message to be received in Meredith's phone at 22:13 and Amanda and Raffaele look at each other and say "****, they just killed Meredith, the bastards.”

No, Dan, I don't agree. I don't think Monica was there.

 

[Dan O.]

Just think what heroes the Perugia police would have been if they had recognized that the break-in was real; collected fingerprint, handprint, and DNA evidence and identified Rudy from it; issued an international arrest warrant for him; and extradited him once the Germans caught him riding a German train without a ticket. We would be singing priase for good police work in Perugia. Even Mignini would be a hero!

Happens all the time in cases that never get reported on the Internet.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Laura

Is there any evidence that Filomena smoked pot at home? Did she possess it herself? If not, did Laura or someone else share it with Filomena?

I seem to recall that Laura supplied the house with marijuana and that she was the one who told Amanda to lie about it.

 

[Supernaut]

Technically speaking, the distinction between "not guilty" and "not proven" doesn't exist in Italian criminal justice any longer. In fact, there's no such verdict equating to "not proven" in Italy now.

The courts can only acquit (i.e. not guilty, i.e. considered innocent) or convict (i.e. guilty).

Section 530 of the Code is a clumsy attempt to marry the previous inquisitorial process with the current adversarial-based process. It's basically saying that if there's no evidence of guilt, the court must issue an acquittal (530.1), and additionally if there is evidence, but not sufficient evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, then the court must also issue an acquittal (530.2). But those two paragraphs - 530.1 and 530.2 - are not separate types of acquittal. They are merely the two different ways in which a court can correctly reach the single verdict of acquittal.

So the only options to the court are to find for guilt or non-guilt. Hellmann made it perfectly clear that his court's reasoning for the finding of non-guilt was related to 530.1 rather than 530.2. But acquittal is acquittal is acquittal, and the law states (as indeed it should) that all acquittals bestow the presumption of innocence upon the accused.

Therefore, even if the Nencini court acquits, and then explains that it found some indicators of guilt, but not enough to find for guilt beyond a reasonable doubt (i.e. a "530.2 acquittal"), Knox and Sollecito should be considered totally innocent of the charges - both legally and ethically. And, subject to SC ratification, any suggestions that Knox or Sollecito were murderers who "got away with it" would constitute potential libel.

I understand all of this, but we're back to the Zeitgeist and public perception, not legal absolutes.

IF Nencini sees his remit as one of presenting the case brought against AK and RS as legitimate but "unproved" , using Massei-like reasoning (perhaps employing "possible, but improbable" as often as the latter did "possible, indeed probable"?), it will not put an end to the hounding of the two.

Then again, perhaps nothing would, if one takes the prevalence of human stupidity as a given.

 

[katy_did]

No, Dan, I don't agree. I don't think Monica was there.

Yes, I'm afraid that's the obvious flaw in Dan's otherwise very plausible theory: Monica would obviously have let Mignini in if she'd been there, rather than leaving him outside to scream and so drawing attention to the whole thing.

 

[Bill Williams]

Is there any evidence that Filomena smoked pot at home? Did she possess it herself? If not, did Laura or someone else share it with Filomena?

After the murder was discovered, Filomena snuck back in her room to retrieve her laptop. If Filomena possessed and smoked pot at home and had not used up the last of it the last time she smoked, then she almost certainly had pot in her room. When she snuck back in her room to retrieve her laptop, what are the odds she did not remove her pot lest the police find it?

Did the police find pot in her room? If not, why not?

They did not record they found pot in her room. Yet when she was examined in court, she admitted to smoking, saying, "I have sinned". It was a good way of reminding her what was at stake if she did not cooperate. Still she had nothing relevant to say about Knox, in relation to the murder....

 

[NancyS]

You don't think Meredith could have been relaxing in her bed fiddling with the phone buttons at 21:58 and 22:00 then suddenly Raffaele and Amanda burst into her room and start molesting her then Patrick shows up because Amanda said they should meet and the forth suspect Usi comes in with Patrick then Rudy who just happened to be in the neighborhood breaks in through Filomena's window and stops to take a dump without flushing before replacing Patrick in the murder room and the whole perugia police department shows up with knives from the kitchen except for Mignini who doesn't have a key and thinks the climb into Filomena's window is impossible and starts screaming like a girl because it's unfair then Monica slapps Meredith on the back of the head saying you're not doing it right but this causes three of the kitchen knives to slice into her throat so they all run away together across the gravel drive and up the metal steps in perfect unison which creates such a racket that it can be heard in the apartments across the street and this is what caused the mms message to be received in Meredith's phone at 22:13 and Amanda and Raffaele look at each other and say "****, they just killed Meredith, the bastards.”

Great summary - although I think you missed out the part where Raffaele, as part of his final year project for his computer degree, had created Amanda and Raffaele cyborgs to hang out down the square and give them the perfect alibi. Although the really clever part is that they they then lie about 'the perfect alibi' in the most devilish double bluff, that really starts to make my brain hurt.

And also the bit where Amanda 'mind controls' Raffaele by dressing up as Hermione Granger and casting an evil spell

 

[acbytesla]

Happens all the time in cases that never get reported on the Internet.

Yea...but does it happen in Perugia??

 

[Diocletus]

I find it fascinating that we are now in a position where we have a prosecutor, who never saw a witness (Curatalo) testify, arguing to a jury, who also never saw the witness testify, that the witness is credible, despite the fact that the prior jury who did hear the witness testify found the witness not to be credible.

Also, the victim was killed before she screamed.

And, a bloody footprint left at the crime scene is evidence that the crime scene was cleaned up.

And, if the cops destroy the defendant's computer, or move the defendant's lamp into the crime scene, then that is evidence of guilt.

Only in Italy is any of this called "logic." In the rest of the world it's called nonsense.

 

[Grinder]

Gabriella Carlizzi was a psychic who claimed to have a connection to a dead priest. She had a website on which she described Meredith's murder in similar terms to the prosecution's original scenario. There are lots of references to her on Google if you are interested. She died of cancer in 2010.

She was mentioned in the 48Hours episode American Girl Italian Nightmare. Part of their report said:


From Michael Scadron on IA:

It's possible there is no documentation of Mignini saying he relied on Carlizzi's counsel. Unfortunately for McMeany, when you are suspected of doing something nutty (like arresting innocent suspects) people tend to look at all the nutty things you ever did, in order to bolster their case against you. Or so I have been told.

I don't think there is a source for Mignini using her in this trial.

Never mind Carlizzi.
Mignini consulted a graphologist, who found from Amanda's handwritng that there is evil in her.
It's in Mignini's closing arguments from Massei's trial IIRC.

I looked using several searches but found nothing.

My recollection is the most egregious act of this typrby Mignini was reading the british tab story about the noise ticket.

 

[Katody Matrass]

I don't think there is a source for Mignini using her in this trial.



I looked using several searches but found nothing.

My recollection is the most egregious act of this typrby Mignini was reading the british tab story about the noise ticket.

The graphologist is reported in Burleigh (and also Dempsey I think).

 

[Grinder]

if the charges are pronounced to be "non proven" then can the PGP still slander or presumably libel them on the internet? Would they not, after a hopeful SC upholding of any non proven verdict have to cease and desist? Obviously they could go on about the Knox slander charges and generally nasty stuff, but they could not go on alleging their guilt? In fact I am wondering if they would have to delete whole chunks of their website, or whether it would be allowed to stand as an historical record? Would A and R be able to sue the True justice and PMF sites if they continued to libel? (This is all of course conditional of verdicts sympathetic to A and R , which of course hangs in the balance for now).

They both slandered on TV and radio as well as libeled but most likely only in England. In the US they would have to prove that statements are lies. In their cases the burden would be higher as public figures and the cost would be significant and the owners of the sites are not wealthy.

I would say there is no way that they will sue unless they just would like to uncover who those people are.

 

[Grinder]

Therefore, even if the Nencini court acquits, and then explains that it found some indicators of guilt, but not enough to find for guilt beyond a reasonable doubt (i.e. a "530.2 acquittal"), Knox and Sollecito should be considered totally innocent of the charges - both legally and ethically. And, subject to SC ratification, any suggestions that Knox or Sollecito were murderers who "got away with it" would constitute potential libel.

LJ you have expressed on more than one occasion that you are sure that the ILE didn't prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm sure you will find a subtle mistake in my characterization, which I can say in advance wasn't intended. As you know, I agree they didn't make their case, but they didn't prove they were innocent They didn't have to but for many some doubt will remain.

I personally believe that if a case has a verdict that states that there wasn't enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt they would be legally not guilty but they would not be ethically innocent. I know we have been round this before.

O.J. was found not guilty in criminal court but was found guilty in civil court with the lower standard of preponderance of evidence. Whether or not the same would be possible in Italy, I don't know. Was he legally and ethically totally innocent after the criminal trial?

Libel here will be very difficult to prove.

 

[Grinder]

"From the victim's cell phone records the murder is placed at around 22:13". Crini seems to agree with Hellmann on time of death.

I the middle of Curatolo's observation of them and just before the car breakdown.

Curatolo is an alibi. Of course if there is no time of death there is no alibi.

 

[Grinder]

After all, if the court accepts a pre-10.15pm ToD (as indeed it should, based on very very sound scientific evidence and other key items of evidence/testimony), then Curatolo's testimony is immediately called into huge question on that one issue alone, since he claims to have seen Knox and Sollecito around the basketball court more-or-less continuously up to later than 11pm.

.

He sees them until just before midnight. Massei changed the time based on when the "disco" buses were there. Massei concluded that it must have been 11 because the buses were there when he left and the buses are gone by 11;15-30.

I believe the defense needs to make the point that he saw them there until nearly midnight.

 

[Grinder]

Not to mention the fact that a pre-10.15pm ToD also renders useless the "earwitness" testimony that the prosecution and the Massei court found so compelling. The fabled "scream of death" cannot have occurred before around 11pm at an absolute minimum, if this testimony is to be believed.

The almost-certain truth, of course, is that this "earwitness" testimony is the product of either a) honest misremembering, b) a real scream that was totally unconnected to the murder of Meredith Kercher, or c) an invention or flat-out lie.

Truth be told the ear witnesses could have heard it at any time after 10 because apparently clocks are taxed heavily in Italy as none of them had a clock.

The prosecution took 11:30 to fit Curatolo.

 

[Grinder]

The "earwitness" probably heard a high pitched squeal from the tow truck picking up the disabled car. After associating the noise with the murder, her memory reconstructs the noise as a scream.

Could very well be the case.

What it was NOT was any scream issued by Meredith Kercher as she was attacked, and nor was it any scream issued by Knox at any time.

You hear a horrible scream. One so nasty that you need to drink a tea (in a kitchen with no clocks) and then the next afternoon you look out and see cops all over the place and by evening, latest, you know a girl had been murdered, but you don't call the police. Really?

Months later you go on TV and get a little fame.

Their testimony was worthless.

 

[Grinder]

Is there any evidence that Filomena smoked pot at home? Did she possess it herself? If not, did Laura or someone else share it with Filomena?

After the murder was discovered, Filomena snuck back in her room to retrieve her laptop. If Filomena possessed and smoked pot at home and had not used up the last of it the last time she smoked, then she almost certainly had pot in her room. When she snuck back in her room to retrieve her laptop, what are the odds she did not remove her pot lest the police find it?

Did the police find pot in her room? If not, why not?

I would guess that she would take it to the party she was attending that night.