Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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In his position 'unethical' does mean something - I'm assuming he belongs to some kind of professional body, or does that not exist in Italy?

I'm a doctor and I can be investigated by my professional body for unethical behaviour, even if it isn't illegal

Oh yes, I understand, for that in Italy we say deontologia (which we distinguish from etica).

Mignini belongs to the Magistratura della Repubblica which has very strict rules of conduct, they have also their code called deontologia ("ethics" as they are for doctors or lawyers), http://www.singsing.org/codice/magistrati/codice_deontologico.pdf however this is short and generic, only containing the "obvious" rules of honesty of the profession ; nothing compared to the actual extensive set of rules that the Magistrates must follow, called ordinamento giudiziario.
 
<snip>You can sail away on forever with your dreams, but in the courtroom there has never been a 05:45 interrogation - not even a discussion about its existence - and there will never be one.

Yikes.

And speaking of social conditioning:

The other question is equally easy. Mignini is an anti-mafia prosecutor, a trusted member of the judiciary, and the enforcement of justice and its legitimacy is a most basic and essential need for a citizen.

It is a tough adjustment to find out one's heroes have feet of clay. But it makes life a lot more interesting in the long run.
 
How long did it take Amanda to repeat what she had already told the police in the first interrogation with Mrs. Donnino interpreting and a police woman officer transcribing the whole thing verbatim?

(...)

According to Mignini, it took about 20 minutes or less.
 
Perugia-Shock FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2009
The evening of the 5th she calls Raffaele for an interview. He finishes his dinner with Amanda and shows up at 22.15. With Amanda too. The pair is literaly building their own arrest. While Raffaele is under interrogation Amanda starts exercising in the corridor (according to Monica). In the middle of the interview Kinky Monica comes out of the room to announce the others that Raffaele isn't defending Amanda anymore. It's the start of the end, the lovebirds have almost completed their unconscious project of being thrown to jail.
In the meantime Amanda is fed and taken care (according to Monica). But then, at 3:30 it will be her turn to be interviewed. That's what happens when you go uninvited to such lounges.
The disaster will be completed at 5:45 with the dancer in tears and accepting to accuse Patrick. And, indirectly, herself.
 
I'm just curious, Machiavelli. How did Mignini escape investigation for the 180,000 Euro cartoon?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/meredith-kercher-murder-trial-prosecutor-2843678

Did Mignini throw her under a bus on this one?

I am dying to know what is going on here. Who is pushing this, and why? Is it someone who has an interest in the trial, or is that incidental to a vendetta against Comodi and perhaps others? And why indeed has Mignini been left out?
 
So presumably Mignini and his lawyers will have the ability to ask senior powers to investigate this alleged persecution?

There will be a response. It is not possile to predict to what extent and what levels this will involve.

And you will be able to write internet commentary about those alleged to have committed the persecution?

I'm not planning to do anything like that for the years to come.
By now, two elements have already been hit, the former head of the Florence prosecution office, Nannucci, has gone, the office was in fact decapitated. Maradei, the judge who convicted Mignini, has also fallen in disgrace.

And the senior powers will conduct a thorough and competent investigation into the matter, and identify if in fact there was a persecution against Mignini?

No, this won't happen in the most official form, unless there is a parliamentary initiative, or an investigation by another prosecution office and decisions by other courts.
It is difficult to talk in terms of "senior powers" because there is no organ with a power directly senior to a judiciary office. There are higher courts, but they decide on decisions, not on members of the judiciary.
There is no senior power specifically in charge of finding out whether magistrates commited things. Magistrates are subject to ordinary courts like all citizens. Impossible to predict what courts will find out about somebody.

And if any evidence of persecution is discovered in such an investigation, the perpetrators will be held accountable appropriately?

The point is actually not about persecution. I won't call it a persecution, I would call it abuse of power.
The former chief prosecutor of Florence, Nannucci, was wiretapped as he gave defensive suggestions to a suspect (Spezi) in order to escape the investigation by his same office. You don't need to know much more than things like that. That person is no longer in that place of power. Other structures andnetworks still exists.

Conversely, if there's never an investigation into suspected persecution, are we to conclude either that a) corruption reaches the very top of the Italian judicial system, and that the persecutors are being protected by their superiors, or b) that no persecution ever took place?

First, you must not commit the mistake of considering Italy as a country with institutions in a "state of peace". There is an underlying civil war and if you see "corruption" like an illness, you must see it in terms of fight, not in terms of existence. The question is not who and what exists, but who and what fights what.
There is actually no "top" of the Italian judiciary, because magistrates are not in a hiearchy. There are higher and lower organs, like high and lower courts, but there is no power that has a mandate to determine that criminal actions are comitted within the structure.
There is a Supreme Council of Magistrates (CSM), which may carry on disciplinary actions, like the one they pusue about Manuela Comodi, but these are reserved activities not public trials, and they cannot replace findings for which criminal courts would be competent. Because if we are talking a about "persecution" of Mignini, we are talking about criminal activities of mafious and subversive kind, not something that can be dealt with by the CSM.
Does corruption reach the "very top" of Italian institutions? Impossible to tell (and the question actually makes little sense). It is actually highly improbable that - in this moment - the person at the highest seats of, let's say, the CSM or the Supreme Court, are corrupt. However, I can guess that a percentage of Italian magistrates in the general level are 'corrupt' (not honest), I have no idea how many but if someone said ten percent I would take this figure as realistic. These people are statystically distributed in the whole body, and they tend to be actually known by the public opinion as being corrupt.
But the existence of non-official structures of power of a criminal and subversive kind is inherent to the Italian society. It is not the judiciary which is corrupted, it is rather that part of the Italian society actually consists of networks that we may define mafious and subversive. These networks have their "men" in the judiciary as in any other institution. But they are a minority, and they manage to control the judiciary far less than other institutions. Corruption anyway depends on the person, not on the institution he is a part of.
As a whole, I regard the judicial body in its highest institutions (and specifically the people involved in this case such sa the Supreme Court offices dealing with this case) as non-corrupt. I don't know if it will have the resources and strenght to actually "eliminate" (eradicate) the criminal structures, to the point of fully reveal all plots and persecutions, it is improbable that this takes place entirely and within a short term.
 
Oh yes, I understand, for that in Italy we say deontologia (which we distinguish from etica).

Mignini belongs to the Magistratura della Repubblica which has very strict rules of conduct, they have also their code called deontologia ("ethics" as they are for doctors or lawyers), http://www.singsing.org/codice/magistrati/codice_deontologico.pdf however this is short and generic, only containing the "obvious" rules of honesty of the profession ; nothing compared to the actual extensive set of rules that the Magistrates must follow, called ordinamento giudiziario.

This is an English-speaking forum.

Please, spare us your resorting to foreign-language moo-poo.

It's just desperate and pathetic.
 
PK since you read here and post there you might want to school those that say Curatolo didn't see them as he left.

I'll I said , I was on the bench to the half-past nine , ten o'clock, I was up to at midnight there.QUESTION - And these two boys when he saw them ?
ANSWER - Up to before midnight that I was a bit '
tired of reading, I had lit a cigarette , I look
always people passing , the movement that is important to us
Piazza Grimana and then after I have not seen again.
QUESTION - So you saw them just before midnight and ... ANSWER - The last time yes .QUESTION - then did not see them anymore?
ANSWER - No.
QUESTION - How long has observed them ?
ANSWER - Let's say that every time you read the staccavo
newspaper , I have smoked three or four cigarettes so .


ETA - This is what Stilicho said:

Some time. It's unclear from his testimony exactly when Curatolo saw them. They were gone when he left shortly before midnight.

He probably saw them two or three times over the course of the evening but not at provably regular intervals and there's no basis for reasoning they stood there the whole time.
 
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The point is actually not about persecution. I won't call it a persecution, I would call it abuse of power.
The former chief prosecutor of Florence, Nannucci, was wiretapped as he gave defensive suggestions to a suspect (Spezi) in order to escape the investigation by his same office. You don't need to know much more than things like that. That person is no longer in that place of power. Other structures andnetworks still exists.
Wow. Everyone is wiretapping everyone else. If what you say is correct, about this being a civil war in the country amongst the judiciary, then Mignini's abuse of power charge must been seen as Mignini losing his little skirmish.
First, you must not commit the mistake of considering Italy as a country with institutions in a "state of peace". There is an underlying civil war and if you see "corruption" like an illness, you must see it in terms of fight, not in terms of existence. The question is not who and what exists, but who and what fights what.
Finally, something we agree upon.

Now this is NOT something I will hold you to, Machiavelli. But I do seem to remember that when I suggested to you that the ISC overturning of the Knox/Sollecito acquittals was in fact a shot in a civil war, you objected greatly to that suggestion.

Since you have suggested that Judge Hellmann was bought off by the Masons, and now you are saying that ....

"Nannucci, was wiretapped as he gave defensive suggestions to a suspect (Spezi) in order to escape the investigation by his same office."

You are accusing judges in the Italian system of serious crimes....]

.... yet that seems inconsistent, really, with the claim of a civil war, where both sides would perhaps use semi-legal means to fight their opponents.

Wars are about winning, after all.

But I do suggest to you that you denied a civil war existed a while ago... my suggestion to you is that the Kercher murder trials are caught up in this war - that I agree with what you said.

That's what pro-innocence people have always been saying - this is not about the evidence, this is about winning. Meredith Kercher and her family suffer because their pain is a pawn in a power struggle, and Sollecito and Knox's liberty is similarly on the line.

Every once in a while, you get clear. Everyone - remember page 185 of the sixth continuation.
 
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Machiavelli - you are betraying your side by letting us in on this war. Either that or you're looney tunes.

As the saying goes - if you win say nothing; if you lose say less.
 
Wow. Everyone is wiretapping everyone else. If what you say is correct, about this being a civil war in the country amongst the judiciary, then Mignini's abuse of power charge must been seen as Mignini losing his little skirmish.

Mignini won in all courts.
The problem is that the Florence prosecution office managed to seize the Narducci investigation file, for seven years. This damaged irreversibly the Narducci investigation.

Someone also broke into Giuttari's GIDeS office and stole some key evidence documentation of the MoF case (in particular, the hand-written letters form the killer). This damaged irreversibly a branch of the MoF investigation as well.

Now this is NOT something I will hold you to, Machiavelli. But I do seem to remember that when I suggested to you that the ISC overturning of the Knox/Sollecito acquittals was in fact a shot in a civil war, you objected greatly to that suggestion.

I still object: this is only your desperate rationalization. The high court acted farily and correctly. Hellmann-Zanetti was a proven abomination. It was a racist, filthy and inconsistent verdict wrong on so many points of law that the PG even failed to list them all.

The civil war exists but this does not allow you to list in arbitrarily all things you like and pin it to the civil war.
Not even the Hellmann-Zanetti verdict was a shot in a civil war actually, that was just a trivial case of low "ethics".

But the structures, the networks the Knox-supporters resorted to, in order to obtain the appointing of Hellmann in replacement of Matteini Chiari and so the Hellmann-Zanetti verdict, were already existing and somehoe related to the existence of a civil war.

Since you have suggested that Judge Hellmann was bought off by the Masons, and now you are saying that ....

"Nannucci, was wiretapped as he gave defensive suggestions to a suspect (Spezi) in order to escape the investigation by his same office."

You are accusing judges in the Italian system of serious crimes....

.... yet that seems inconsistent, really, with the claim of a civil war, where both sides would perhaps use semi-legal means to fight their opponents.

Wars are about winning, after all.

The argument is specious and utterly unacceptable. The sides involved a war are not necessarily morally equal. The Allied and the Nazis were not exactly the same thing (albeit the Allied included Stalin).
In fact I consider fighting for democracy, equality and law as not exactly the same as fighting for tyranny.
There may be one side right and the other side wrong. What you fight for makes a difference. So are methods. Methods must be consistent with the aim. It would make no sense that I push to pervert justice in order to enforce justice, to produce mafia in order to defeat mafia, to conceal corruption to fight corruption... You can't just assume that, since I am fighting these things, I must be committing those things: because I am fighting against fascists, I must be a fascist... this reasoning is inconsistent, it's insane; I would be an insane if I did that, that would be completely inconsistent and would make no sense; I would be fighting on a side only incidentally, as I would share the same values of the enemy, I could equally change side in any moment when convenient. This would mean I had nothing sincere to fight for, why should I be engaged in a war in the first place then? I would be a mercenary and everybody would be mercenaries.
But this is not something I ever said about Italy. This has nothing to do with the actual situation.
One side is right and the other side is wrong. One sight is right and the other side is corrupt. This dicothomy exists, you won't make it become that everyone is equal.
 
But the structures, the networks the Knox-supporters resorted to, in order to obtain the appointing of Hellmann in replacement of Matteini Chiari and so the Hellmann-Zanetti verdict, were already existing and somehoe related to the existence of a civil war.

You're kidding, right? One side of the criminal dispute managed to appoint the judges who would adjudicate their trial?

You really do live in a conspiratorial fog, don't you......?

Can I quote you on this down the line - with your promise that you will not deny saying it? You do that a lot. Everyone - remember page 185 of the sixth continuation. Machiavelli is ratting out his side of things.... talking about things which, if true, the "other side" cannot be happy is talked about!
 
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The argument is specious and utterly unacceptable. The sides involved a war are not necessarily morally equal. The Allied and the Nazis were not exactly the same thing (albeit the Allied included Stalin).
In fact I consider fighting for democracy, equality and law as not exactly the same as fighting for tyranny.
There may be one side right and the other side wrong. What you fight for makes a difference. So are methods. Methods must be consistent with the aim. It would make no sense that I push to pervert justice in order to enforce justice, to produce mafia in order to defeat mafia, to conceal corruption to fight corruption... You can't just assume that, since I am fighting these things, I must be committing those things: because I am fighting against fascists, I must be a fascist... this reasoning is inconsistent, it's insane; I would be an insane if I did that, that would be completely inconsistent and would make no sense; I would be fighting on a side only incidentally, as I would share the same values of the enemy, I could equally change side in any moment when convenient. This would mean I had nothing sincere to fight for, why should I be engaged in a war in the first place then? I would be a mercenary and everybody would be mercenaries.
But this is not something I ever said about Italy. This has nothing to do with the actual situation.
One side is right and the other side is wrong. One sight is right and the other side is corrupt. This dicothomy exists, you won't make it become that everyone is equal.

It really is amazing how soldiers in a war see the their enemy as all bad and themselves as pure as the Virgin Mary. But in reality it is rarely that way. Do you not think the fascists in WWII did not see their quest as noble?

I wrote a paper in college about how right wing and left wing authoritarian regimes resorted to the same tactics and in practice differed little from each other. I find it interesting that you see these other judges as corrupt when in reality, the whole system is corrupt.
 
I have to say, I'm quite impressed by this response. Here is the question:

And why does Mignini suggest that budget problems prevent taping of police interviews? Why not just tell the interviewer what you just said, that in Italy suspects can be questioned in complete secrecy, and no one can know what happens during those interviews? If that's the case, why pretend that it was simply too expensive?

This is the answer . . .

But why don't you try learn a bit about the law, instead of second guessing indirect reports, why a person Y said this about that thing X... I suggest you rather deal with the thing X directly instead.

Starts with a not too subtle suggestion that I'm stupid for asking. Equivalent to throwing sand in the eyes.

Mignini was talking about a situation, a reality that has several causes and aspects. I probably wouldn't know what to say in his same situation: because there isn't one single answer. It's a reality. A reality has many aspects, not just one.

Proceeds to a patronizing explanation that things are not so simple as the question makes them seem. Get it? It's all very complex! (If you're looking for an answer to the question itself, you're probably starting to guess that we aren't going to go anywhere near it.)

It is true that the police are allowed to question witnesses in complete secrecy and are not required to record anything.

What does that have to do with Mignini's suggestion that it was a budget issue? Also, Amanda was not a witness during the time we're talking about. She was a suspect.

It is true that police documents (summary information) must be redacted.

How does this answer the question that was asked?

It is true that police normally do not record interrogations of witnesses; it's something very rare. Some times some corps may do that, when they have some peculiar needs.

Or that? (Notice again that Amanda Knox was not a witness during the early morning hours of Nov 6.)

Actually, even the prosecution is allowed to declare someone a formal suspect and don't let the suspect know this, keeping this secret from the person, for one year or more.

Well, okay . . . that's interesting. Are the police allowed to question their suspect without a lawyer during this time period? (Note that we're still not addressing the actual question.)

It is also true that recording is an expensive procedure, because it's followed by transcription which is rather expensive and interrogations are a huge amount of hours of material.

Is recording necessarily followed by transcription? No. Recording itself is virtually free, and yet here is Mignini claiming that it was not done, so this is patently silly. I've made transcripts of complex presentations from neuroscience conferences in the past. I can do an hour's worth of speech in about 3 hours, perfectly, and that's when the scientist is a non-native English speaker talking very fast. We're talking about an interrogation that went on for about 7 hours. How "huge" could the amount of transcribing hours really be?

It is also true that in recent times police sometimes did record some activities, not because required ny the investigation, but only as a cautionary measure to defend themselves in case they are accused of misconduct. But this is not something they are required to do.

Again, there is no response to the question that was asked. Why does Mignini not simply tell the interviewer that taping is not required? Why does he bring up the budget?

I'll tell you why: because he's a liar. They did tape that interview, but he knows what the tape would show, so he's pretending -- ludicrously -- that it wasn't done for budgetary reasons. It's an insult to the intelligence of any fair-minded person.
 
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Machiavelli, you cannot possibly spin this as good news! You get "E" for "Effort" for the attempt.

Guilters have been saying that this charge against Mignini would simply lapse because of the time limit. It seems that the Giudice del'Udienza Primaria has not allowed that to happen. Apparently this happened Nov 22.

It's a trial, Machiavelli. You'd be a better friend to Mr. Mignini by telling him to mount a defence rather than this stuff...

And remember, he's innocent until proven guilty.
Interesting because Mach seems to have good understanding, as in ISC prediction on annulment.
 
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