Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Machiavelli and I exchanged comments on this board a few weeks ago regarding the animated film. I had expressed objection earlier to the visual technique of drawing/coloring the female-character murderer as looking similar to Amanda to the point of having the animated character wear a distinctive brown and white horizontally-stripped sweater just like the one Amanda wore to court.

Machiavelli explained that the animation's purpose was to show (explain) to the judges positioning and actions of the perpetrators in the room. I say "No, that is hogwash". The animation was much more than that. If it were really necessary to do that it could have used generic figures or stick figures and might have room measurements or grid lines (for positioning) on it.

This animation was an effort to influence a conviction by using visual effects to cause the judges to visually merge together in their minds the cartoon characters with Amanda and Raffaele. It really was an attempt to confuse the imagery with reality in the minds of the judges.

I think even Massei recognized the extreme prejudicial manipulation that Mignini was attempting when Massei took custody of the animation at the end of the first trial. He knew it was an outrage, and that is why he did not want it seen by others again including the media.

In a U.S. court a judge almost certainly would have immediately removed the jury from the room and then declared a mistrial if such a prejudicial and inflammatory cartoon had been shown to a jury. A lawyer who played such a prejudicial animation might have been held in contempt of court.


Ah but in Italy...apparently you can get away with this nonsense because they have no concept of what a fair trial should be....evidenced by the large number of violations lodged against Italian courts by the ECOHR. Mignini should be in jail...as should Massei and Mattini and the other M Michaeli...or the three...errr four morons as I like to call them.
 
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We all knew about Curatolo's testimony already.

Yes we knew but the Massei recounting doesn't reflect what he said in court but rather what he had said earlier presumingly in a statement to the police that wasn't recorded for budgetary reasons.

In the statement in court he doesn't say they were missing at times but rather says they were there when he looked up.

Curatolo never saw anything, but if he saw what he said in court it was their alibi.

Btw, the footprint doesn't match anybody and shouldn't be used in court.
 
Heh. There you go. After Nov. 5, they were no longer investigating what happened. They were looking for anything that might be probative against the people they accused at a press conference. That determined what they examined. It is why they jumped on a fairly obvious lab error and why they went back to a trashed-out crime scene after six weeks, to "find" exactly what they needed.

Meanwwhile, the truth of what happened clubbed them over the head when they got the test results from Rome. Too bad they didn't wait to have their press conference.

Doesn't explain why they didn't test Patrick's stuff and seal his flat.
 
Why weren't all his knives tested before the 13th? Of course, he had knives that could be murder weapons. Every kitchen has knives that could kill.

Mach are you being serious? Are you testing me? A knife with Meredith's blood DNA on it would have been probative to the extent that it would identify the murder weapon, which one would think is important.

It is true that if the murder weapon had come from the house, DNA and non blood prints wouldn't be definitive. Just in the same way that Amanda's DNA in her house or in Raf's house or on Raf's knife is meaningless.

Well, that is the problem Grinder. You can't tell if DNA comes from blood or saliva or skin cells. It takes a different test for that. Of course you remember all the mixed blood arguments? Finding Amanda's DNA in Meredith's blood for example means nothing, you can determine if there are two different blood types mixed together, but not through DNA testing.

I think the question is, did they test any of the knives for blood?

It's one of the things that really pisses me off about Stefanoni. Her declaring that Meredith's DNA on the knife was most likely haematic. She never got any indication whatsoever that this DNA was from blood. But never the less, she felt the need to say that it did?? That is extremely prejudicial.
 
Why weren't all his knives tested before the 13th? Of course, he had knives that could be murder weapons. Every kitchen has knives that could kill.

There was the 6 or 7 day period in which no testing of items related to the case was done. I assume this would apply to items from Patrick. The only items I can remember being tested of Patrick's were some rags or sponges in his shop (or maybe I have confused that with Raffaele?).

Mach are you being serious? Are you testing me? A knife with Meredith's blood DNA on it would have been probative to the extent that it would identify the murder weapon, which one would think is important.

It is true that if the murder weapon had come from the house, DNA and non blood prints wouldn't be definitive. Just in the same way that Amanda's DNA in her house or in Raf's house or on Raf's knife is meaningless.

I wonder if Stefanoni was questioned about the cottage knives by the defense or prosecution? Also didn't Amanda have a set of new knives in her bedroom? Were they taken or photoed by police?
 
Machiavelli, you may realize that many readers here do not believe that the kitchen knife confiscated by Inspector Finzi from Sollecito's kitchen drawer is of similar dimensions to match the knife bloodstain on the victim's bedsheet. I would like to ask you to please look at the page that I am linking below as it shows the knife with measurements and also shows the knife bloodstain with measurements.

Please see images and description towards the bottom of the long page at :
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/TheKnife.html

You might be interested in reading the page's text, as well, even though you may not agree with the points made.


Am I reading your link correctly and these are the knives from Rafs kitchen?

cottageknives.jpg
 
There was the 6 or 7 day period in which no testing of items related to the case was done. I assume this would apply to items from Patrick. The only items I can remember being tested of Patrick's were some rags or sponges in his shop (or maybe I have confused that with Raffaele?).

He had been named by Amanda. His text message exchange with her meant they were meeting up THAT night. They rushed out to arrest him. There is no reason they wouldn't have sealed both the apartment and the bar. Is there some national holiday from the 6th to the 13th?

This was the biggest case in Italy at the time. International press but the lab was too busy to run tests on a few knives and other things? How could they sit on the murder knife taken from Patrick and not test it?

It makes no sense, period.

The six day vacation seems very convenient for the contamination discussion.

I wonder if Stefanoni was questioned about the cottage knives by the defense or prosecution? Also didn't Amanda have a set of new knives in her bedroom? Were they taken or photoed by police?

Yes she had them under her bed. I don't think they had ever been used. Probably still sealed.
 
Machiavelli - can we at least get your word that in the future you won't deny ever saying you thought and once stated that the kitchen knife matched the knife outline on the sheet?

Promise?

Mignini has it figured out - how a knife with an 8" blade can leave a 5" bloodstain. The stain was originally 8". What's happened is the sheets have shrunk. Amanda noticed during the cleanup that they were too large for the bed - they were originally queen size sheets but Meredith's bed is a twin-size. So, being the good housekeeper that she is, Amanda put the sheets in the dryer to shrink them from queen to twin-size. The knife bloodstain shrank from 8" to 5". So Mignini's only issue is why did she forgot about the bathmat? And the answer to that is "do you know how difficult it is to get good help these days?"
 
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Well, that is the problem Grinder. You can't tell if DNA comes from blood or saliva or skin cells. It takes a different test for that. Of course you remember all the mixed blood arguments? Finding Amanda's DNA in Meredith's blood for example means nothing, you can determine if there are two different blood types mixed together, but not through DNA testing.

Of course they can determine if DNA came from blood. They were not limited to DNA tests. Amanda's DNA in Meredith's blood does mean something.

I think the question is, did they test any of the knives for blood?

It's one of the things that really pisses me off about Stefanoni. Her declaring that Meredith's DNA on the knife was most likely haematic. She never got any indication whatsoever that this DNA was from blood. But never the less, she felt the need to say that it did?? That is extremely prejudicial.

true.
 
I am not so conspiratorial minded as to believe that paying EUR for an animated film is an indication of "revenue sharing" (bribe).

I think Nventa may be involved in assisting the Perugia police or prosecutor's office in monitoring phone conversations, internet usage, et al, and that the payment of EUR 182,000 for a 1-minute film and later some database help is a way to disguise paying Nventa for a larger scope of work that the parties involved do not want to properly itemize and allow the public to see. It could be for helping monitor the phone calls and internet usage of the defendants, their families, and defence attorneys. Maybe also a few Perugia senior police officers who might be skeptical of, and are thus seen seen as a potential threat to, the "blue wall of silence" that must be maintained to protect the story line.

I wonder if Judge Hellman and pathologist Lalli might be targets of phone monitoring or internet tracking?

If you recorded 39,000 Sollecito phone calls, wouldn't you need someone to create or manage a database to store and process that? Would you have a police officer do that or would you turn it over to a contractor who specializes in that and has staff to do that?

Why I expect you would need a data base; not to mention a staff to transcribe all those calls...busy busy. Where is the paper (money) trail for all this expensive activity? Surely someone must bean count in Italy? 39 thousand phone calls is a lot of chattin. Im guessing that Nventa didnt do all that for the 180 M price....why without the video costs just the 39 thousand wire taps would figure out to around 4.50 a piece. Seems too cheap to me. I wonder if the Italian bean counters are sniffing out this money trail? I bet the 180 thousand is actually small potatoes...interesting how they investigate to co-prosecutor and not the boss prosecutor. No?
 
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He had been named by Amanda. His text message exchange with her meant they were meeting up THAT night. They rushed out to arrest him. There is no reason they wouldn't have sealed both the apartment and the bar. Is there some national holiday from the 6th to the 13th?

This was the biggest case in Italy at the time. International press but the lab was too busy to run tests on a few knives and other things? How could they sit on the murder knife taken from Patrick and not test it?

It makes no sense, period.

The six day vacation seems very convenient for the contamination discussion.

Probably not a week long national holiday as to why testing was not done. Maybe there were legal reasons to why testing was not done during that time (or even another reason - answers may be found in the transcripts).

Convenient or not there is a six day testing gap according to SALs.
 
Why I expect you would need a data base; not to mention a staff to transcribe all those calls...busy busy. Where is the paper (money) trail for all this expensive activity? Surely someone must bean count in Italy? 39 thousand phone calls is a lot of chattin. Im guessing that Nventa didnt do all that for the 180 M price....why without the video costs just the 39 thousand wire taps would figure out to around 4.50 a piece. Seems too cheap to me. I wonder if the Italian bean counters are sniffing out this money trail? I bet the 180 thousand is actually small potatoes...interesting how they investigate to co-prosecutor and not the boss prosecutor. No?

I read something in English which had a few summaries of Sollecito phone call transcription notes that appeared to have leaked to the Italian media. It appears that the calls were recorded and someone would listen to them and only note the most basic info such as time of call and who called. If there was nothing of particular interest, they wrote just a cursory note. Or even wrote down a catty remark about the call or caller. It is not necessary to transcribe each and every call. Sounds like a job for a contractor.
 
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Of course they can determine if DNA came from blood. They were not limited to DNA tests. Amanda's DNA in Meredith's blood does mean something.

I think you or I are mistaken Grinder or maybe we are just misunderstanding each other. Maybe Chris or Kaosium or Charlie can help me out.

DNA is DNA is DNA. My understanding is that you cannot look at a DNA profile and determine if the profile's genetic source is from saliva, semen, blood or tissue. So if Amanda brushes her teeth and spits on the sink and then later a drop of Meredith's blood is deposited over the dried saliva, you can't say there was "mixed blood" but you can say that there was mixed genetic material. You could test the blood for antibodies and maybe find two different blood types and that would tell you that it was mixed blood. I'm sure that there may be some other tests as well. But not DNA testing.


 
It's one of the things that really pisses me off about Stefanoni. Her declaring that Meredith's DNA on the knife was most likely haematic. She never got any indication whatsoever that this DNA was from blood. But never the less, she felt the need to say that it did?? That is extremely prejudicial.

Did she say it was most likely haematic? I thought she said because the DNA was so low she couldn't exclude that it could be blood but couldn't say it was blood since the test was negative.
 
Did she say it was most likely haematic? I thought she said because the DNA was so low she couldn't exclude that it could be blood but couldn't say it was blood since the test was negative.

In her report she said it was, but I think she backtracked on the stand.
 
Yes we knew but the Massei recounting doesn't reflect what he said in court but rather what he had said earlier presumingly in a statement to the police that wasn't recorded for budgetary reasons.

In the statement in court he doesn't say they were missing at times but rather says they were there when he looked up.

Curatolo never saw anything, but if he saw what he said in court it was their alibi.

Btw, the footprint doesn't match anybody and shouldn't be used in court.

This is the problem when it comes to innocentisti logic. A most important point: whatever Curatolo saw, independently from its probative value, it can't be their alibi.
In this case, 'alibi' would mean something that confirms their versions. They did not declare they were at Piazza Grimana that night, so if Curatolo tells the truth they are lying. And if they are lying, this would be anyway a piece of circumstantial evidence about their implication.

You also need to have clear in mind that Amanda Knox does not need to be on the murder scene in order to be implicated: the murder occurred in her apartment, which under some condition is considered a link itself; the simple fact that she lived in that house makes her a potential suspect and is a potential ground of implication.

TRegardless of budgetary reasons police statements of witnesses cannot be recorded, they must be redatcted, and anyway recordings/transcripts cannot be used in court by the law (unless it's a preliminary hearing or an investigative judge under some conditions).
There is no condradiction between Curatolo's previous statement, anyway, and his statement before Massei. The only difference is that in his previous statement he was not asked about the time when he arrived and doesn't say that. But he never says they were missing at times. The only important difference is the lack of this time of beginning of his observation.

Actually Curatolo's testimony is perfectly consistent and totally reliable, soo it looks to me.
The only problem in his testimony is the 30 meters distance.
This is an element which always made me think about.
I heve this element of doubt, which is entirely about the identity of the people he saw. This is the only problem I can see with Curatolo.
It's not an irrelevant problem. But I always considered Curatolo's testimony as marginal, actually irrelevant. (I did not list it among the evidence, as you may have noticed).
Curatolo did not witness to the suspects actually committing the murder, nor in a suspicious attitude. The only logical value of his testimony is that it denies their stories. But this is totally unnecessary since their stories are already proven false by other evidence, they are contradicted by Quintavalle and by phone records, and by the inconsistencies in the suspects' own accounts.
 
The "tunnel vision" would include Patrick committing the murder and most likely with his own knife or one from the cottage.

So you're saying that they never thought Patrick had anything to do with the murder and that they didn't think the "I'll see you very soon" meant anything but it would be good to arrest him?

Mach can you explain why they didn't test other knives or did they?

This should be quite readily and easy to access info...simple matter really...just review the EDF's to see what samples were tested from what items plus look at the corresponding control runs that prove all these tests are not contaminated. Oh wait! I wonder if that is why they refuse to allow review of these ....EDF's??? Why sure no one need to see that information, what were we thinking?
 
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So they spend a massive amount of money (EUR $182,000) to create (fabricate) a 23 minute animation of a young woman dressed in a distinctive brown and white horizontal-stripped sweater just like Amanda wore to court in order to encourage the judges to absorb that it is Amanda murdering Meredith. The judges pull it from public view but retain it as permissible evidence that the next judges will watch.

What a foul system!

That stinks worse than a skunk that crawls out of a dead skunks errr behind.
 
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