Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[LondonJohn]

Maybe they should have had Rinaldi to measure the print and compare it with the knife.

Then someone - perhaps someone peripherally linked to the legal world - could draw up a colour-coded Excel chart of similarities, to illustrate the "millimetre accuracy" of the measurements

 

[Machiavelli]

When did she say this? I don't doubt she said it, but that is no reason not to check those knives.

Please explain why in the world after Amanda's statement about Patrick and the arrest of Patrick that the police didn't bring in his knives for testing. He was the killer, not Raf, not Amanda.

Patrick had many items seized from his apartment, there is a long list of pices of clothing and shoes, plus a cell phone and a phone care.
He also described the police being very curious about his kitchen cutelry, I think he said that in an interview, maybe his interview by Panicucci on TG Cinque.
However, I don't know about knifes seized at his apartment. They might have been collected but I don't know about this. Maybe they didn't find any one suitable as a weapon.
His bar instead was seized as a whole, sealed, but no one had entered yet and items were not collected from the inside.

However, no item from Lumumba was tested for DNA as far as I know, since on Nov 13. it was already clear that he had nothing to do with the crime and a written communication about this was forwarded by Mignini.

As for the knife in Kercher's apartment, they were seized and photographed. However, I think they were not tested, my personal inference about that was that, given that they were basically clean, a DNA test would not have been probative, since they were in Kercher's apartment after all. I mean Meredith's DNA inside Meredith's kitchen may be a non-probative finding from start.

 

[acbytesla]

But the same readers also believe that the bathmat print matches Guede rather than Sollecito. (this says it all imo)
I actually found that the print on the bed sheet may well fit the kitchen knife. As well as other knifes. It would not fit a flick knife like the ones possessed by Sollecito and Guede. But I don't think it allows to rule out a kitchen knife of that size, in particular not that kitchen knife with a 17.5 centimeter long blade.

Frankly, I can't tell about the bathmat print. It looks like both. The knife stain however, isn't even remotely close.

 

[Machiavelli]

If you re-read what I actually wrote, my point 4 was to do with the issue of the lack of competitive tender for the animation work.

Yes, now I understand. I had doubts because I didn't know the word "tender".

 

[Machiavelli]

(...)
You haven't fully addressed the police chief's statements or Curatolo's testimony. From 9:30 until nearly midnight - never saw them missing or leaving - observed them mostly when smoking something nicotine addicts do at regular intervals. He would have had a cigarette about every 20 minutes. They were always there. Not enough time to kill, clean themselves and return to the court.

We all knew about Curatolo's testimony already.

 

[LondonJohn]

Why wouldn't the DNA (which somehow survived the cleaning, be swept off of the blade by the bread? Here we have a knife with Amanda's DNA, with starch, and supposedly without blood. The blood would have to be cleaned off, but in such a way as not to remove the starch or DNA in two places? I cannot fathom how.

No, no, no Chris!! This was no ordinary DNA of Meredith's on the blade. This was magic DNA, which can defy the basic laws of physics and chemistry to cling to the knife blade (the cell containing it was evidently wedged immovably inside the tiny scratch in the knife!) and to resist all normal reactions to bleach, detergents, surfectants and even warm water.

In fact, I think that the World's DNA scientists should be breaking down Ms Stefanoni's door to gain access to this miracle DNA that she found on the knife. After all, if they can manage to clone this DNA and the cell structure that contained it, the entire fields of cell biology and DNA chemistry will be radically altered forever. And Ms Stefanoni will surely be a shoe-in for a Nobel Prize!

 

[Bill Williams]

Machiavelli - can we at least get your word that in the future you won't deny ever saying you thought and once stated that the kitchen knife matched the knife outline on the sheet?

Promise?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

As for the knife in Kercher's apartment, they were seized and photographed. However, I think they were not tested, my personal inference about that was that, given that they were basically clean, a DNA test would not have been probative, since they were in Kercher's apartment after all. I mean Meredith's DNA inside Meredith's kitchen may be a non-probative finding from start.

Heh. There you go. After Nov. 5, they were no longer investigating what happened. They were looking for anything that might be probative against the people they accused at a press conference. That determined what they examined. It is why they jumped on a fairly obvious lab error and why they went back to a trashed-out crime scene after six weeks, to "find" exactly what they needed.

Meanwwhile, the truth of what happened clubbed them over the head when they got the test results from Rome. Too bad they didn't wait to have their press conference.

 

[Supernaut]

I think the kitchen knife does match the stain on the bed sheet.

No, you don't.

You're lying.

Again.

 

[Planigale]

As for the knife in Kercher's apartment, they were seized and photographed. However, I think they were not tested, my personal inference about that was that, given that they were basically clean, a DNA test would not have been probative, since they were in Kercher's apartment after all. I mean Meredith's DNA inside Meredith's kitchen may be a non-probative finding from start.

So the knives from the apartment weren't tested because they were clean and the knife from Solecito's was tested because it was clean?

So they knew before testing the results the DNA test would come up with so they didn't bother testing the knives from the flat but they did with the knife from Solecito's?

Does this not strike you as slightly weird?

 

[acbytesla]

So the knives from the apartment weren't tested because they were clean and the knife from Solecito's was tested because it was clean?

So they knew before testing the results the DNA test would come up with so they didn't bother testing the knives from the flat but they did with the knife from Solecito's?

Does this not strike you as slightly weird?

Not only did they test the clean knife from Raffaele's that smelled of bleach, but Stefanoni put it through the most absurd and ridiculous DNA testing procedure maybe ever.

 

[Strozzi]

Animation Hogwash

The prosecution's theory has always been vague and speculative. Mignini presumably understood this, so he commissioned an animation to make it seem more concrete.

Any such production would be full of obvious problems and errors. It depicts something that did not really happen, so it would have to be out of sync with the physical evidence. That would explain why Mignini slipped his forensic reconstruction into a closing argument rather than presenting it as evidence.

It would also explain why Massei did not want the defense (or anyone) to have it for close examination. He took the position that the court would not consider it in their deliberations.

I am curious as to who is now pressing the inquiry, and what motivates them to do so.

I would like to have the video so I can study it. This murder was a knife attack that took place inside a small white box, with a grid marked on the floor. The victim was found before any significant decomposition occurred. It would be possible for anyone with the skills to prepare an animated reconstruction that shows what really happened and lines up exactly with the physical evidence shown in crime scene photos and the autopsy report. This might be a worthwhile project, especially if the prosecution opus ever comes to light.

Machiavelli and I exchanged comments on this board a few weeks ago regarding the animated film. I had expressed objection earlier to the visual technique of drawing/coloring the female-character murderer as looking similar to Amanda to the point of having the animated character wear a distinctive brown and white horizontally-stripped sweater just like the one Amanda wore to court.

Machiavelli explained that the animation's purpose was to show (explain) to the judges positioning and actions of the perpetrators in the room. I say "No, that is hogwash". The animation was much more than that. If it were really necessary to do that it could have used generic figures or stick figures and might have room measurements or grid lines (for positioning) on it.

This animation was an effort to influence a conviction by using visual effects to cause the judges to visually merge together in their minds the cartoon characters with Amanda and Raffaele. It really was an attempt to confuse the imagery with reality in the minds of the judges.

I think even Massei recognized the extreme prejudicial manipulation that Mignini was attempting when Massei took custody of the animation at the end of the first trial. He knew it was an outrage, and that is why he did not want it seen by others again including the media.

In a U.S. court a judge almost certainly would have immediately removed the jury from the room and then declared a mistrial if such a prejudicial and inflammatory cartoon had been shown to a jury. A lawyer who played such a prejudicial animation might have been held in contempt of court.

 

[Supernaut]

... the video animation produced by Nventa-id on the Kercher case is 23 minutes long.
...

Lying again.

 

[LondonJohn]

Yes, now I understand. I had doubts because I didn't know the word "tender".

Excellent. No need to apologise for jumping to the wrong conclusion then

Now, about this "23 minutes" thing........

 

[Bill Williams]

Everybody take note of this page, page 177 of the JREF Continuation part 6. It contains the most absurd allegations against Knox and Sollecito, as well as the true analysis of the cartoon presented in court, the Massei Court - the one Comodi is now in trouble for.

It also contains Machiavelli making the most absurd comments... one of which is now he believes that the kitchen knife is the same shape and size of the blood outline of the real knife found on the sheet in Meredith's room.

Refer back to this page often, for a short primer on how the wrongful prosecution was accomplished. Eventually, there will be true justice for Meredith Kercher, when this wrongful prosecution is exposed for what it is.

 

[RandyN]

No, no, no Chris!! This was no ordinary DNA of Meredith's on the blade. This was magic DNA, which can defy the basic laws of physics and chemistry to cling to the knife blade (the cell containing it was evidently wedged immovably inside the tiny scratch in the knife!) and to resist all normal reactions to bleach, detergents, surfectants and even warm water.

In fact, I think that the World's DNA scientists should be breaking down Ms Stefanoni's door to gain access to this miracle DNA that she found on the knife. After all, if they can manage to clone this DNA and the cell structure that contained it, the entire fields of cell biology and DNA chemistry will be radically altered forever. And Ms Stefanoni will surely be a shoe-in for a Nobel Prize!

I think you meant the Dilbert prize. She should be nominated for a Dilbert prize...but you know me...just a prejudiced prick who unfairly lumps Italian scientists together into some moron category...at least the ones trying to prop up this disaster against science.

 

[RandyN]

Machiavelli - can we at least get your word that in the future you won't deny ever saying you thought and once stated that the kitchen knife matched the knife outline on the sheet?

Promise?

No wonder he wont eat with you...

He never said THE kitchen knife....he said kitchen knife...as in any random untested, ignored by the police because they were clean...snicker....kitchen knife. Probably one from under AK bed matches this stain perfectly or wait...I bet RG still had that knife he got caught with in the kindergarten school since apparently he committed no crime worth arresting him for and they let him keep the other stolen items like the computer so sure why not...Italian logic says RG still had the knife from the school so I bet that was the knife that matches...oh never mind that was clean too...but wait...didn't some cop claim he chose the RS knife because it was so cleannnnnnnn. Wait a darn minute here something does NOT make logical sense...;-)

 

[RandyN]

So the knives from the apartment weren't tested because they were clean and the knife from Solecito's was tested because it was clean?

So they knew before testing the results the DNA test would come up with so they didn't bother testing the knives from the flat but they did with the knife from Solecito's?

Does this not strike you as slightly weird?

Nope...I bet he has a perfectly...although quite wordy excuse that fits Italian logic quite well. It will have osmosis perhaps...or meteors.

 

[RandyN]

Not only did they test the clean knife from Raffaele's that smelled of bleach, but Stefanoni put it through the most absurd and ridiculous DNA testing procedure maybe ever.

And...AND...AND she came into the custodial hearing and lied about the quantification of that very sample too. What are the odds?

 

[Grinder]

However, no item from Lumumba was tested for DNA as far as I know, since on Nov 13. it was already clear that he had nothing to do with the crime and a written communication about this was forwarded by Mignini.

Why weren't all his knives tested before the 13th? Of course, he had knives that could be murder weapons. Every kitchen has knives that could kill.

As for the knife in Kercher's apartment, they were seized and photographed. However, I think they were not tested, my personal inference about that was that, given that they were basically clean, a DNA test would not have been probative, since they were in Kercher's apartment after all. I mean Meredith's DNA inside Meredith's kitchen may be a non-probative finding from start.

Mach are you being serious? Are you testing me? A knife with Meredith's blood DNA on it would have been probative to the extent that it would identify the murder weapon, which one would think is important.

It is true that if the murder weapon had come from the house, DNA and non blood prints wouldn't be definitive. Just in the same way that Amanda's DNA in her house or in Raf's house or on Raf's knife is meaningless.