Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Strozzi said:
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I believe Finzi was perfectly correct to take all the sharp knives from Raffaele's flat. Had there been any ice picks, screwdrivers, too, he should have taken them for examination. He or someone else should have also taken all the sharp knives and screwdrivers from Kerscher's flat as well. And from Lumumba's bar and residence. That would be the proper way to investigate a murder where the victim had cutting or stabbing wounds.
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I don't know about Guede's flat. But I know from the transcripts there were several knifes in Kercher's apartment, which I don't know if they were examined. However they were not "in use", Filomena says they had put them "below" the coutlery desk, out of sight, because nobody used them. I don't know if Knox even knew about their existence. I don't know if they were suitable for killing.
What I know is that Knox was called in the house when the police examined them, to aks her if she thought something was missing or so, and when she saw the knifes she reportedly started crying hysterically.
 
Machiavelli said:
I don't know about Guede's flat. But I know from the transcripts there were several knifes in Kercher's apartment, which I don't know if they were examined. However they were not "in use", Filomena says they had put them "below" the coutlery desk, out of sight, because nobody used them. I don't know if Knox even knew about their existence. I don't know if they were suitable for killing.
What I know is that Knox was called in the house when the police examined them, to aks her if she thought something was missing or so, and when she saw the knifes she reportedly started crying hysterically.
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Well then...that excuses the police and prosecutor from doing a proper investigation concerning the "murder weapon" then doesn't it? I cant blame them for failing to secure anything at Lumumbas or even checking all sharp items at the cottage...and taking just the one knife from RS now makes perfect sense... sigh.

Really Yummi...you have stopped trying to make a good argument. I understand why... but, sometimes saying nothing is better than saying just anything.
 
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Machiavelli said:
I don't know about Guede's flat. But I know from the transcripts there were several knifes in Kercher's apartment, which I don't know if they were examined. However they were not "in use", Filomena says they had put them "below" the coutlery desk, out of sight, because nobody used them. I don't know if Knox even knew about their existence. I don't know if they were suitable for killing.
What I know is that Knox was called in the house when the police examined them, to aks her if she thought something was missing or so, and when she saw the knifes she reportedly started crying hysterically.
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Nonsense. Cooking requires chopping, cutting, slicing. There was almost a dozen similar knives to Raff's knife at the cottage. She lived in the cottage for 42 days, She knew there were knives at the cottage. The knife from Raff's had starch on it. So it was undoubtedly used to cut bread.

And so what if Amanda started crying? Her friend was murdered.... with a knife. And it sure wasn't that knife. See blood stain on sheet.
 
GreyFox said:
Why is it there is always a foul wind in the air when Comodi's involved ? Who's left from the prosecutions side that hasn't gotten in trouble since this case started.
For those that support circumstantial evidence as a reason to convict without any hardcore proof I would say that a circumstancial case exist that proves without a doubt that the PLE is corrupt from head to toe.

Somehow I get the feeling her and the Devil oops Mangina errrrr Mingini himself will trump up a reason how Knox is responsible for this too.
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I see what you did there. :-)
 
I was reading some of the linked page regarding Ak's verbal and written statements to police. I am amazed every time I read them. How naiive can one be? If she was only afforded legal council, none of those incriminating statements, which were undoubtedly coerced, would ever have been made.
 
Grinder said:
If the Curatolo interview has been translated please someone let me know. I've started the tedious job but it's only Google.

PRESIDENT - Public Ministry may examine .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI
QUESTION - Mr. Curatolo , she plays a life of ...
ANSWER - I live on the street.
QUESTION - In the area east of essentially square Grimana ?
ANSWER - A square Grimana .
QUESTION - Well, she is always there more or less ?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - Go to sleep somewhere?
ANSWER - Piazza Grimana Corso Garibaldi , however, is that
the area where I live .
APPLICATION - The area is . Go to sleep somewhere?
Where he goes when he sleeps ?
ANSWER - I usually sleep in the square Grimana , then after ...
QUESTION - He sleeps on a bench ?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - How long she is , gravity, lives there in
Piazza Grimana ?
ANSWER - Eight or nine years.
QUESTION - I want her to remember what happened ,
she remembers the murder of Meredith ?
ANSWER - Yes, I have read about in magazines.
QUESTION - when you ... she was in Piazza Grimana
when the police arrived ?
ANSWER - At that time , yes. I was in Piazza Grimana .
QUESTION - Do you remember what he did , what he saw
previous evening ?
ANSWER - First of all I want to clarify one thing, that
I confirm that what is a conscientious , that is part of
myself, I do not like neither advantage nor life
of others or make it bad. However, that evening, in
that time I was reading about a square Grimana
bench a magazine L'Espresso .
QUESTION - What time was it ?
ANSWER - At about half past nine , ten.
QUESTION - What's Next?
ANSWER - I was on the bench to read the articles that
I was interested Espresso , occasionally smoked a
cigarette , staccavo reading and looked at the people who
was at or near Piazza Grimana , above. there were
the end of the basketball court two boys, they looked like two
boyfriends who were to discuss a little ' animatedly
between them.
QUESTION - Where were these guys exactly?
ANSWER - In round at the basketball court , under a street lamp,
where you throw the ball in the basket .
QUESTION - What were they doing as well as discuss ?
ANSWER - They talked to each other like two lovers , each
then one got up and went on the way , where is
the railing to look under . There were other people
however, that was a little ' mess, was a period of
party.
QUESTION - Do you remember what time it was when you saw them ?
ANSWER - I'll I said , I was on the bench to the half-past nine , ten o'clock, I was up to at midnight there. QUESTION - And these two boys when he saw them ? ANSWER - Up to before midnight that I was a bit ' tired of reading, I had lit a cigarette , I look always people passing , the movement that is important to us Piazza Grimana and then after I have not seen again. QUESTION - So you saw them just before midnight and ... ANSWER - The last time yes . QUESTION - then did not see them anymore? ANSWER - No. QUESTION - How long has observed them ? ANSWER - Let's say that every time you read the staccavo newspaper , I have smoked three or four cigarettes so . QUESTION - What were these guys clothes ? ANSWER - On the color a bit ' dark . QUESTION - We can describe them as they were physically ? ANSWER - They were not so high , a little ' bassini , seemed pure sympathetic inter alia . QUESTION - Light Brown, Dark Blonde ? Excuse me Mr. Curatolo , sees them in this courtroom these guys ? ANSWER - Yes QUESTION - Who are they? PRESIDENT - Li may indicate ? ANSWER - I'm her and him. But I knew them before , it is not I saw them only that evening, previously ...It is recognized that the witness indicates that the defendants are in
classroom , that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - So you will see little
before midnight. Then he does, he falls asleep ?
ANSWER - No, after I smoke a cigarette and then I walk away .
QUESTION - What time is gone from the area ?
ANSWER - Shortly before midnight.
QUESTION - And then when he's gone on there were no more ?
ANSWER - No.
QUESTION - So you always saw them just before
midnight he say?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - Then where did he go to sleep?
ANSWER - I went to the park.
APPLICATION - The lawn ?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - I mean ?
ANSWER - At the park .
QUESTION - What time do you wake up?
ANSWER - About nine o'clock . Half past eight , nine , as well .
QUESTION - Then what did he do?
ANSWER - I went again to the streets.
QUESTION - In Piazza Grimana ?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - What was there that morning?
ANSWER - I went to grab a cappuccino at the bar , then
I sat on the bench , I smoked a
cigarette every now and then some guy came
knew, so some friends , chat , however,
There was a strange thing because there was a movement of
Police came and went . We were in the square until
to around one and a half , the two , as well , in fact I was
even more, just arrived Carabinieri
ask if we had seen or heard something
something. I said because I had not heard ... to
part to see the guys who were to entertain the
evening I had not seen anything serious . We were a bit '
there, and there was this going of Police, we
overlooking below and we saw people
dressed in white , Police, Carabinieri, a mess of
people there down below .
QUESTION - Downstairs where? In what area ?
ANSWER - Near a house near the entrance of a house
were .
QUESTION - Via Della Pergola?
ANSWER - Yes
APPLICATION - The house she saw then in newspapers, photo?
ANSWER - Yes, yes .
QUESTION - is the house where the crime took place ?
ANSWER - Yes , at least the paper says so .
QUESTION - So you see these people , he goes to sleep
in the park, wakes up in the morning at nine , remains in
square area Grimana , then to one and a half , the two
at some point begins a bustle of Police ?
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This is all great. Even better would be the translated testimony from the other murder cases in which Toto was a witness for prosecutor Mignini. Was that two other times or 3 other times...I forget now.
 
RoseMontague said:
This is interesting. It looks like Comodi is taking the heat on the cartoon expense, more so than Mignini.

http://www.gonews.it/2013/il-csm-pr...er-pagato-oltre-180mila-euro-danno-allerario/
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Yes Google keeps it cloudy enough to make it seem that Comfortable will be in the dock but that Mignini has somehow slipped away.

Do I hear cries of abandon ship? Rats fleeing the fire? I hope all that money is accounted for and not say....oh 100 grand to the video company and 80 grand to line some other corrupt pockets perhaps??? My guess is that this would be SOP in the Italian judiciary...where no oversight is available or even sought.

Like most drowning rats I expect they will all be able to leap to safety.
 
RandyN said:
Yes Google keeps it cloudy enough to make it seem that Comfortable will be in the dock but that Mignini has somehow slipped away.

Do I hear cries of abandon ship? Rats fleeing the fire? I hope all that money is accounted for and not say....oh 100 grand to the video company and 80 grand to line some other corrupt pockets perhaps??? My guess is that this would be SOP in the Italian judiciary...where no oversight is available or even sought.

Like most drowning rats I expect they will all be able to leap to safety.
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Sounds like a kickback to me.
 
Machiavelli said:
But you fail to note that that was the only knife in the drawer (the only large one exept a bread knife, the only pointed one, and the only one that could be used to kill; the others are butter knifes).

Basically you got it wrong when you said that it was one among "several" other knifes in the drawer.

It's also worth note that all knifes suitable as weapons in the possession of Sollecito were seized, all three.
So it's not true that the knife was "chosen" among others, all knifes were seized, that was the only in the drawer, so there was actually no choice.



Yes. You can see the streaks in the picture.
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Well yes, yes you can...and this appears to be the dichotomy...how can the knife be both streaked and yet appear "clean and shiny"? And since the room smelled of bleach...the inference is clear. Your man is a liar perhaps?
 
acbytesla said:
Where the hell is this clock? I've been scanning on Google Maps StreetView and I can't see any clock West of the Piazza Is it on the University for Foreigners? If it is I can't see it. I actually haven't noticed a clock anywhere around the Piazza.
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Go west young man. Just past the far end of the front of the university of foreigners. It's an orange digital sign that currently reads 17:25 in the google street view.
 
Strozzi said:
I note that the firm was originally retained to produce the animation. Later it was tasked to develop a database of court proceedings. Normally the second task, which came later, would be done on a second procurement contract or work order because it is a not a simple expansion of the animation task but is an entirely different and separate product deliverable. One reason a manager might merge the two without adequately specifying the various tasks to be performed and itemizing their costs is to obfuscate the expense incurred in performing some of the tasks. In other words, trying to hide cost overruns in one part of a contract by increasing the total contract - and not adequately itemizing the details.
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This is also a common red flag that auditors use when sniffing out skimming. You order up a 130 thousand video and later add 58 thousand additional unspecified services and skim off 25% for you and your partner...probably not what happened ...;-) Lets wait and see.
 
RandyN said:
This is also a common red flag that auditors use when sniffing out skimming. You order up a 130 thousand video and later add 58 thousand additional unspecified services and skim off 25% for you and your partner...probably not what happened ...;-) Lets wait and see.
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I wonder what is really going on here, why they are making an issue out of this particular expenditure after all the money they have squandered on this farce.

I would also like to see the animation. I am told Massei threatened to jail anyone who leaked it.
 
Dan O. said:
Go west young man. Just past the far end of the front of the university of foreigners. It's an orange digital sign that currently reads 17:25 in the google street view.
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What's pretty interesting is that if you click one stop to the South when looking at this reader board sign it says 16:24 or 10:24 and I can't make it out.

Two things are weird about that. I can barely read the sign from across the street. So there is NO WAY that Curatolo can see that clock from his bench.

The second is totally unrelated to the case. But that means that the Google car took those pictures at least an hour or 8 hours apart and my bet is the 8 hours because the lighting is dramatically different. But it could still be an hour. The University for Foreigners goes from being totally in shade to sunlight.

I know..irrelevant:o
 
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Charlie Wilkes said:
I wonder what is really going on here, why they are making an issue out of this particular expenditure after all the money they have squandered on this farce.

I would also like to see the animation. I am told Massei threatened to jail anyone who leaked it.
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Haven't at least some stills from the animation found their way into the public domain? And wouldn't the entire animated sequence have lasted no longer than about 30 seconds maximum?

If that's the case - and I remember the quality if it is the case (put it this way, we're not talking about a Pixar animation here) - then the financial remuneration magnitude is totally ludicrous. Even in 2008 (when the animation would have been made), this sort of thing could easily have been constructed, wire-frame-animated and rendered using cheaply-available software on a decent home computer.

Even I could have done it, and I don't think it would have taken me longer than an absolute maximum of 30 hours. At an extremely-generous 200 Euro/hour, this would result in labour costs of 6000 Euro. Add in an extremely-generous contribution for the computer equipment and the software, and there's absolutely no way one could exceed 10,000 Euro.
 
Machiavelli said:
I don't know about Guede's flat. But I know from the transcripts there were several knifes in Kercher's apartment, which I don't know if they were examined. However they were not "in use", Filomena says they had put them "below" the coutlery desk, out of sight, because nobody used them. I don't know if Knox even knew about their existence. I don't know if they were suitable for killing.
What I know is that Knox was called in the house when the police examined them, to aks her if she thought something was missing or so, and when she saw the knifes she reportedly started crying hysterically.
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And of course your clear intended implication from the highlighted sentence is that Knox's extreme reaction is somehow an indicator of her guilt - either because she got a flashback to the murder, or because it brought back to her the way in which she and Sollecito had cleaned the murder knife and put it back in Sollecito's drawer.

However, I'd contend that the evidence in this area is at least as consistent with Knox being uninvolved in the murder - in fact I think it's arguably more consistent with an innocent Knox. Why? Well, an innocent Knox knew that her friend Meredith had had her throat brutally cut with a knife. When the police showed her a drawer full of knives in the cottage, it's entirely plausible that an innocent Knox suddenly got a visceral reminder of the way in which her friend was killed. It's also, of course, possible that an innocent Knox might have even wondered if one of the knives she was being shown had been the actual one that had been plunged into Meredith's throat.

The legendary comedian Bill Hicks did a satirical routine which alluded to this issue directly (I won't link to it because I'm pretty certain it contains numerous profanities!). He argued (joked) that it was pretty sick for Christians to wear crosses, as he reasoned that Jesus wouldn't want to be reminded of the way in which he was killed. He illustrated this further by wondering if it would be OK to go up to Jackie Onassis (Kennedy) wearing a sniper-rifle pendant, and saying to her "Just thinkin' of John, Jackie!"

I would contend that the device employed in this satirical vignette is very apt: the reaction that Kennedy's widow might have experienced when being confronted with a sniper-rifle pendant is analogous to the reaction an innocent Knox might have experience when being shown a drawer full of knives.
 
Well, I shall provide a link to the Hicks material, because a) I think it's very relevant to the discussion on this point; b) Hicks' delivery brings a power to the argument that's impossible to convey through a second-hand discussion of it, and c) Hicks was an important voice of political/social satire, and would - I hope - be someone that worked within the spirit of JREF.

However, there ARE quite a few profanities*, so don't watch it if that might offend you! Also, if the provision of this link (even with the disclaimer/warning) is unacceptable from a mod point of view, then I apologise and of course this post must be removed.

Anyhow, here's the clip. The actual "Jesus/cross Vs Jackie/sniper-rifle-pendant" part is nearer the end of the clip, starting at around 2:45. Again, I'd argue that it very succinctly and satirically illustrates the concept of an innocent Knox reacting in a extreme manner to being shown a drawer full of knives.


* ETA: there are actually only three profanities (all versions on the same word) in the whole clip, one of which is included near the start of the relevant part of the clip.
 
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LondonJohn said:
Haven't at least some stills from the animation found their way into the public domain? And wouldn't the entire animated sequence have lasted no longer than about 30 seconds maximum?

If that's the case - and I remember the quality if it is the case (put it this way, we're not talking about a Pixar animation here) - then the financial remuneration magnitude is totally ludicrous. Even in 2008 (when the animation would have been made), this sort of thing could easily have been constructed, wire-frame-animated and rendered using cheaply-available software on a decent home computer.

Even I could have done it, and I don't think it would have taken me longer than an absolute maximum of 30 hours. At an extremely-generous 200 Euro/hour, this would result in labour costs of 6000 Euro. Add in an extremely-generous contribution for the computer equipment and the software, and there's absolutely no way one could exceed 10,000 Euro.
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Also looking at the invoice displayed on the IIP website there's a conspicuous lack of itemisation - just a figure of €152K odd, plus €30K VAT.
 
Antony said:
Also looking at the invoice displayed on the IIP website there's a conspicuous lack of itemisation - just a figure of €152K odd, plus €30K VAT.
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It's the same with the procurement document too.

As I hinted at before - and as RandyN expanded upon - it's far from uncommon for officials in charge of procurement contracts (especially, it seems, those in the public sector) to deliberately overinflate the amount paid to the contractor, in return for a kickback from the contractor. This is self-evidently even more likely/possible when there has not been a competitive tendering process.

Note that I'm not suggesting - yet - that this is what might have happened in this instance.

Let's see what the CSM says on 6th December. I would make two observations at this point: 1) based on what I think I know about the quality of the animation and its duration, I find it near-impossible to understand how "fair value" for the work could have been anything remotely close to six figures; 2) this whole matter is obviously of no direct relevance to the Knox/Sollecito trial (although it might end up posing serious questions as to the probity of at least one of the two original prosecutors)
 
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