Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

No, it certainly appears not (and thanks for replacing my missing "r" there )

Amidst all this talk of leaking, don't we have Nadeau's statement that documents/photos were being handed out "like confetti" to favoured journalists?

And of course there's also the financial incentive to consider. I imagine that certain people with access to the classified documents/photos would have known full well that a) the press (especially the British press) have a voracious appetite for salacious crime stories - especially where both the victim and one of the suspects are young attractive women; and b) the press (especially the British press) have sizeable budgets to fund these sorts of stories.

Whatever may or may not have happened, it's apparent that there are serious "chain of custody" problems in this area. In a proper system, all documents/photos/etc are kept securely, with each official copy numbered separately on each page. Copies can only be made under strict supervision, with any such authorised copies also being given their own number. In that way, it's far more likely that any leaks or losses can be traced back to the source. Oh, and there are things such as "misconduct in public office" and "misconduct in one's capacity as a lawyer" to think about too. Perhaps public officials and lawyers just laugh at such concepts in Italy - I don't know.

Your welcome for the r I ignore spelling mistakes of others. I make far too many of them myself. What really drives me crazy is when my spelling error just ends up spelling another word and then it isn't highlighted.

The procedures you mention are very much what you would have in the US as well.

About Italy,
You have to wonder if they have the laws?
Or if there is any teeth in the laws?
Or if they just don't enforce them?

There have been lots of problems involving documents and privacy in this case. The worst from a US standpoint would have to be the HIV thing and Amanda's list of sexual partners. They protect that in the US like it's the nuclear launch codes. Also I doubt that any of the legitimate press in the US would publish it.

In a way, the prosecution has been hoisted on their own petard with this stuff. As a lot of it has been debunked and I think they are seeing some blow back.

 

[billyryan]

Your welcome for the r I ignore spelling mistakes of others. I make far too many of them myself. What really drives me crazy is when my spelling error just ends up spelling another word and then it isn't highlighted.

The procedures you mention are very much what you would have in the US as well.

About Italy,
You have to wonder if they have the laws?
Or if there is any teeth in the laws?
Or if they just don't enforce them?

There have been lots of problems involving documents and privacy in this case. The worst from a US standpoint would have to be the HIV thing and Amanda's list of sexual partners. They protect that in the US like it's the nuclear launch codes. Also I doubt that any of the legitimate press in the US would publish it.

In a way, the prosecution has been hoisted on their own petard with this stuff. As a lot of it has been debunked and I think they are seeing some blow back.

Leaving Amanda Knox out of it,what about the people who were named as sexual partners by Amanda in her intended to be private diary,the authorities tricked Amanda with a false positive in the HIV test,she wrote down her list of sex partners,possible at the authorities request, then the police released their names to the press,do these people have a right to sue and what about their sexual partners.In the police's shameless desire to harm Amanda Knox did they not defame a lot of other people

 

[acbytesla]

Leaving Amanda Knox out of it,what about the people who were named as sexual partners by Amanda in her intended to be private diary,the authorities tricked Amanda with a false positive in the HIV test,she wrote down her list of sex partners,possible at the authorities request, then the police released their names to the press,do these people have a right to sue and what about their sexual partners.In the police's shameless desire to harm Amanda Knox did they not defame a lot of other people

Well it's not right to defame Amanda but your point is right on. They "outed" 8 people.

 

[tsig]

I am less inclined to believe a coordinated conspiracy took place and think it was more likely a series of people more interested in self preservation than truth and justice. It reminds me of the cultures that existed in Nazi Germany and post WW2 countries behind the iron curtain. Self preservation caused people to silently agree to things they would never do in a free world without fear, throw in some righteous indignation and one can justify about anything. I'm in no way comparing Italy to those times/places, I'm just saying that self preservation can rear it's ugly head in the same way, even in free countries across the world today and wreak havoc on the truth.

Seems to me it would be more likely she just falsified a report or tested a known sample of Rafs DNA and said it came from the bra clasp and then put the clasp in a container she knew would destroy it making it useless for further testing or verification. How would anyone know what she did? Was her work filmed, were other people with her through all stages of the testing?

I'm not saying that's what happened, I don't know and find the bra clasp the most troubling piece of evidence to explain away. Despite the method and length of time it took to collect it, I wouldn't expect Amanda's place to be littered with Rafs DNA that could contaminate it, so how it got there is perplexing to me.

The only thing that seems possible is if Rafs DNA was on the doorknob and it got transferred from the Knob to the clasp by one of the techs but how do you prove that? I am still not clear on whether DNA can easily be transferred in this way as I've heard it argued that it can't but I don't know enough about the science to say one way or the other.

Why yes, the ghettos full of Jews, the full trains running to the extermination camps, Italian soldiers goose stepping all over the world, Italy today looks much like Nazi Germany.

 

[Diocletus]

Why yes, the ghettos full of Jews, the full trains running to the extermination camps, Italian soldiers goose stepping all over the world, Italy today looks much like Nazi Germany.

I don't know about that. But, if this case is any indicator, then it's justice system, with its lack of disclosure to defendants, strong arm police tactics, denial of counsel at the discretion of the prosecutor, disregard of international human rights obligations and use of media propaganda to prejudice defendants, looks awfully fascist to me. Of course, Italy is no stranger to fascism.

 

[Grinder]

I wouldn't be so sure, it's always the people that are publicly puritanical, self-righteous and judgemental that are eventually outed as spending their private time dressing as giant babies or dropping their keys in a bowl - you have to admit it's compatible. It's usually right wing politicians in the UK.

In the US the most anti-gay legislators often turned out to be gay.

 

[Supernaut]

Voice from the gallery.

I have to agree with Grinder and Machiavelli on this. I personally don't know where you are coming from. Rude Guede was a good looking, athletic male. He may or may not have been obnoxious to the young women around Perugia but I haven't seen any evidence of that that is not possibly tainted by him being fingered as the murderer. And as for judging him as definitively not the "most beautiful black man" etc, I think that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Your statements about average or below looking men not getting laid is quite frankly ridiculous to me. You don't have to look far to see beautiful women on the arms of (insert derogatory visual of choice) guys, and conversely handsome successful men with less than perfect women.

On this note, I have always thought that with respect to Meredith Kercher, it was certainly within reason that she could have felt friendly to him to some degree. How much I won't speculate but I am struck by those comments that were made to the effect that Meredith would "never have gone for" Rudy Guede. I am not saying it happened, but those comments struck me as the same type of vilifying that Amanda and Raffaele have been subjected to. He may have other characteristics that make him undesirable and offensive, but being a black male is not one of them. Yes, I did sense the racial issue here. Others may see it differently. Maybe we should see a contrast between the "boys downstairs" and Rudy. Specifically Giacomo (?), the guy she was "hooking up with".

Long, long ago, I had a brief discussion with Grinder which started when he said that he'd heard (lol - 'hearsay', anyone?) that Guede had a "reputation as a womaniser".

I corrected him and said that his rep was actually as a girl botherer who had little success in actually getting laid, and in fact showed every sign of actually being a sex pest, at which point Grinder tried to 'win the point' by quoting a dictionary definition of "womaniser".

Looks (face and physique) go a long way toward success in getting sex. However, intelligence, personality and charisma (which usually accompany reasonable affluence) are just as, if not more important.

Guede is a nobody - lazy, never had money, probably low IQ - no-one has ever referred to him as "fun", "witty" or "good company", and I reckon THAT's why women, especially the numerous intelligent ones from abroad studying in Perugia, had little interest in him.

IMO this lead to a huge build up of sexual frustration, resentment and anger in Guede which erupted in the evening of Nov 1st 2007, when a pretty foreign girl STILL wouldn't yield sexual favours even when he had her under his complete control.

 

[Grinder]

I don't know about that. But, if this case is any indicator, then it's justice system, with its lack of disclosure to defendants, strong arm police tactics, denial of counsel at the discretion of the prosecutor, disregard of international human rights obligations and use of media propaganda to prejudice defendants, looks awfully fascist to me. Of course, Italy is no stranger to fascism.

Well I don't think this trial and the Italian is system that resembles fascism. At least how it is defined.

fas·cism noun \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
: a way of organizing a society in which a government ruled by a dictator controls the lives of the people and in which people are not allowed to disagree with the government

: very harsh control or authority

Full Definition of FASCISM
1. often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition


I think it has more to do with the church and a phony set of rules that people supposedly live by. The Italians seem to pretend that they live as good Catholics and demand that of others.

Now the part about harsh control or authority does fit but more of a religious control and authority.

What is it about the Italians or their system that allows Mach to freely state that the records of the DNA testing don't need to be turned over because of timing notwithstanding the need for truth and justice?

Even if Mach is correct that the attorneys receive everything immediately from the courts and police why are those attorneys allowed to release the data without sanction.

Why do they dress up in court like its a masquerade ball? Why do they use Dr. for people with BA degrees yet quibble over the term honor student?

The more I learn, the odder the culture seems. A modern day first nation that has an underbelly of ritual and fear of authority mixed in with religion and the underworld.

 

[Antony]

Wasn't it Count or Duke or something like that?

"The Baron". Apparently a nickname linked to a famous US basketballer named "Byron" - can't remember his surname.

 

[Diocletus]

Well I don't think this trial and the Italian is system that resembles fascism. At least how it is defined.

fas·cism noun \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
: a way of organizing a society in which a government ruled by a dictator controls the lives of the people and in which people are not allowed to disagree with the government

: very harsh control or authority

Full Definition of FASCISM
1. often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition


I think it has more to do with the church and a phony set of rules that people supposedly live by. The Italians seem to pretend that they live as good Catholics and demand that of others.

Now the part about harsh control or authority does fit but more of a religious control and authority.

What is it about the Italians or their system that allows Mach to freely state that the records of the DNA testing don't need to be turned over because of timing notwithstanding the need for truth and justice?

Even if Mach is correct that the attorneys receive everything immediately from the courts and police why are those attorneys allowed to release the data without sanction.

Why do they dress up in court like its a masquerade ball? Why do they use Dr. for people with BA degrees yet quibble over the term honor student?

The more I learn, the odder the culture seems. A modern day first nation that has an underbelly of ritual and fear of authority mixed in with religion and the underworld.

I didn't say it was "Fascism." I said that it was "fascist." And what I mean, is that the justice system functions in much the way that I imagine a justice system would function within a fascist system. I imagine that authoritarian police, lack of transparency, fundamental unfairness, and a judiciary that is politically-motivated and not concerned with truth or justice.

See, your problem is that you went to Daniel Webster's dictionary instead of the Diocletus Dictionary.

ETA: I did say that Italy is no stranger to fascism, which is obviously true. Indeed, reading further down the page in the Webster dictionary, we can see that the Italians invented the word. Go figure.

 

[Grinder]

Long, long ago, I had a brief discussion with Grinder which started when he said that he'd heard (lol - 'hearsay', anyone?) that Guede had a "reputation as womaniser".

I corrected him and said that his rep was actually as a girl botherer who had little success in actually getting laid, and in fact showed every sign of actually being a sex pest, at which point Grinder tried to 'win the point' by quoting a dictionary definition of "womaniser".

Looks (face and physique) go a long way toward success in getting sex. However, intelligence, personality and charisma (which usually accompany reasonable affluence) are just as, if not more important.

Guede is a nobody - lazy, never had money, probably low IQ - no-one has ever referred to him as "fun", "witty" or "good company", and I reckon THAT's why women, especially the numerous intelligent ones from abroad studying in Perugia, had little interest in him.

IMO this lead to a huge build up of sexual frustration, resentment and anger in Guede which erupted in the evening of Nov 1st 2007, when a pretty foreign girl STILL wouldn't yield sexual favours even when he had her under his complete control.

I read where he was living with his girl friend at the time in Milan and had a job at a restaurant. Wasn't that the article written by the pro Knox Patrick King? Yes it was.

Yes many people after his arrest made remarks about him something like what the british girls said about Amanda after the arrest.

I doubt you have any first hand knowledge of Rudy's dating or sex life therefore it is all hearsay.

Sorry for using definitions as it is much better for each of us using terms as we each define them. It makes for much better communication. Just as scanning everything instead of perusing makes people comprehend better.

From Raf's page: Rudy moved to Milan where his aunt, Georgette, had immigrated. She was married to a man named Vincent who apparently liked Rudy and developed a good relationship with him throughout the winter and spring of 2007. Rudy took a job in a café and was very proud of his uniform. He started dating an Italian girl. One night at a night club, he had his photograph taken with Giorgio Armani, the men’s clothing designer. He was very proud of this photo, too, and was seen to use it as the desktop photo on his computer.
In the spring of 2007, however, he lost his café job and drifted back to Perugia.

 

[Machiavelli]

I do believe it, and I didn't make it up. I think it's mentioned in both Amanda and Raffaele's books, as well as here.

It's what is to be called something made up.
Mignini read his letter. This was not embarassing, and this happened not because Guede couldn't read the words. These allegations are made up and are false.
They are also legally impossible btw.

Maybe they all imagined it.

They lied. They twist facts.

Guede could have never been requested to read a letter he wrote to a newspaper. That request would have been inadmissible.
Mignini never asked him to read the letter. He only asked Guede to look at the photocopy and say if that was the letter he wrote. Guede said yes.
That was all Mignini asked him about the letter.
Knox and Sollecito are obviously lying in their boks.

 

[Grinder]

I didn't say it was "Fascism." I said that it was "fascist." And what I mean, is that the justice system functions in much the way that I imagine a justice system would function within a fascist system. I imagine that authoritarian police, lack of transparency, fundamental unfairness, and a judiciary that is politically-motivated and not concerned with truth or justice.

See, your problem is that you went to Daniel Webster's dictionary instead of the Diocletus Dictionary.

My mistake. Could you give me a link?

While i might argue that you are making a distinction without a difference, I wouldn't do that because that would against the Grinder Book of Etiquette.

I think you should contact Webster et al. and have them update the meaning.

 

[Grinder]

My mistake. Could you give me a link?

While i might argue that you are making a distinction without a difference, I wouldn't do that because that would against the Grinder Book of Etiquette.

I think you should contact Webster et al. and have them update the meaning.

ETA - To your ETA - yes good old Mussolini came before Hitler. It was the Italians that were first to make the trains run on time but were not so good at war and therefore the German's get the credit.

 

[JREF2010]

I could say that Migini is compatible with being a swinger - they always tend to be older, overweight and a bit sweaty looking - and he's obviously obsessed with group sex and girl on girl action, if his prosecution theories are anything to go on.

Migninni is also a liar as captured on CNN, when he was asked about the interrogation not being recorded, Mig's said it was due to budget cuts.

proof= Migninni is a liar

 

[Bill Williams]

They lied. They twist facts.

Guede could have never been requested to read a letter he wrote to a newspaper. That request would have been inadmissible.Mignini never asked him to read the letter. He only asked Guede to look at the photocopy and say if that was the letter he wrote. Guede said yes.
That was all Mignini asked him about the letter.
Knox and Sollecito are obviously lying in their boks.

I don't know which is worse. First would be if you are simply making this up, or second if there is actually some sort of court procedure in Italy which prevents someone from reading their own words in court, no matter the source.

I am getting out the popcorn, because it's time to get steeled for pages of dietrology on why this is the most logical, and legal, thing to do.

 

[Supernaut]

It means it's [her diary/journal] an object of her property; so it will be returned to her.

Meanwhile, the investigators can use it.

..... by freely distributing anything it contains to the media?

You really are a piece of ....work.

 

[Grinder]

Amidst all this talk of leaking, don't we have Nadeau's statement that documents/photos were being handed out "like confetti" to favoured journalists?

Don't remember for sure but she is the one the PGP say said that the journalists all shared Marriott's PR emails and laughed and laughed about them. Perhaps she is just an approximate journalist.

And of course there's also the financial incentive to consider. I imagine that certain people with access to the classified documents/photos would have known full well that a) the press (especially the British press) have a voracious appetite for salacious crime stories - especially where both the victim and one of the suspects are young attractive women; and b) the press (especially the British press) have sizeable budgets to fund these sorts of stories.

Wished we had more info on why Lalli was thrown off the case.

Whatever may or may not have happened, it's apparent that there are serious "chain of custody" problems in this area. In a proper system, all documents/photos/etc are kept securely, with each official copy numbered separately on each page. Copies can only be made under strict supervision, with any such authorised copies also being given their own number. In that way, it's far more likely that any leaks or losses can be traced back to the source. Oh, and there are things such as "misconduct in public office" and "misconduct in one's capacity as a lawyer" to think about too. Perhaps public officials and lawyers just laugh at such concepts in Italy - I don't know.

The way Mach tells it transparency trumps everything else. I find it hard to believe that the police turn over everything to the judge as they gather it. Hard to believe that while a person is being investigated everything is made available to them. Now Mach seems to say that things can be kept secret in which case I don't see why the details of the interrogation were public the next day.

 

[Supernaut]

..........

I doubt you have any first hand knowledge of Rudy's dating or sex life therefore it is all hearsay.

...

This, I have to say, is redundant, and bordering on obtuse.

Well, everything ALL of us think we know about the world and everything in it, that we don't have "first hand knowledge of", is "hearsay".

 

[Diocletus]

Guede could have never been requested to read a letter he wrote to a newspaper. That request would have been inadmissible.

Right. As it should have been, since the letter is hearsay. And, for the same reason, Mignini should have been prohibited from using it.

That said, the real problem with this letter is that the defendants were denied the opportunity to cross-examine the witness.

So, what we have is a hearsay accusation against defendants, as to which they are denied the opportunity to cross-examine the declarant even though he was brought to court by the prosecutor for purposes of authenticating the hearsay letter. It's just a cheap, backdoor way of trying to prejudice the defendants.

Like I've said previously, this prosecutor is scum and Italian judges suck at doing law.